Missing Boat

Thanks for the insight spring. An EPIRB alone most likely would not have saved these men. In retrospect maybe the better response would be to concentrate on the prevention end of things, I dunno. My head is still spinning over this whole ordeal. I guess as long as we ply these waters this type of thing will happen once in awhile. It is inherently dangerous. I just wish we could find that silver bullett to prevent them but I know that is unrealistic. Again my heart goes out to the families and friends involved in this tragedy. Thanks everybody for the thoughtful discussion on this matter. Hopefully some positive things happen in the aftermath of this accident. This will be my last post on this thread. Tight lines and above all be safe, Osprey
 
Just to move a little away from where this thread is going..


Now that everybody has had their opinion on how and why this tragedy came to be , we should maybee think a bit about our fellow fishers.
I dont know them , but does anybody know the guide, does he have any children , and a wife , that perhaps need some assistance. Matbee it would be an idea to set up some kind of fund to help the families thru this tough time fist, and figure out the hows and what iffs later.
Im in for the first couple hundred!!
 
quote:Originally posted by phnapa

Just to move a little away from where this thread is going..


Now that everybody has had their opinion on how and why this tragedy came to be , we should maybee think a bit about our fellow fishers.
I dont know them , but does anybody know the guide, does he have any children , and a wife , that perhaps need some assistance. Matbee it would be an idea to set up some kind of fund to help the families thru this tough time fist, and figure out the hows and what iffs later.
Im in for the first couple hundred!!
The guide was single
 
Phnapa,I am not sure that an outpouring of dollars will help anyone, but if you can get it together I am sure you will find many generous souls on this board.

I do think that our discussions and hopefully input to Transport Canada are valuable in saving lives in the future. The reality is this is OUR fishery and if we want changes WE have to make it happen.

I do think that an modern EPIRB could have made a difference here,but sadly we will never know. By having an exact position the Rescue Centre could put out a broadcast to other boaters in the area, most rescues on the water in B.C. are executed by fellow boaters not SAR resources. (SushiHunters heroic rescue last year comes to mind) . If anyone on this coast thinks that they can push a button and a helicopter or Coast Guard will arrive within an hour are sadly mistaken.We live on one of the biggest,sparcely populated, remote and complex coastlines in the world and other boaters are the true lifeline.

You can play out all the possible scenarios of what these guys went through, but if someone knew their position ,they had lifejackets or PFDs on, they could have scrambled on to the overturned hull and they would have had a chance.

It is our responsibility to educate and make any nessasary changes to OUR fishery. The deaths of these four fellow fisherman do not have to be in vain.

beemer
 
While better equipment, survival suits/PFD's boats designed for rougher waters, etc., may all help, the reality is that human and mechanical systems are all fallible and the sea can be a cruel lady. At any given moment, she can bite us despite our best efforts and planning. It is the risk we take to enjoy all the good things she has to offer. This isn't the first and it won't be the last sad event to occur on the water. When a tragedy like this happens all we can do is offer our heartfelt condolences to family and friends. By the way, Nog, you have nothing to apologise for.

Too much water, too little time
 
The boat was in the area where it had last had radio contact with anyone. I believe it was not known to have had an accident until it did not return to the lodge, presumably many hours after the event happened.
 
In the logging industry we are extremely regulated, not that I believe that is what was needed, but I do believe some key safe work procedures in place are needed.Now I don't believe that these suggestions would have changed the outcome but we will never know. I think any time you deploy an anchor you should radio your lat & long, and in cases where conditions are less than ideal, use man checks and the buddy system.
I personally feel the Key hole life jackets are a joke ! yes they are self righting 80% of the time and have 28 pounds flotation, The higher the flotation the greater distance between your mouth and the water.But as already mentioned things happen fast on these small boats(26' or less? )and these life jackets are not worn and stored under seats or crammed into the bow. Transport Canada have data telling them the most of the time when people go into the water they are conscious. Auto hydrostatic inflatable PFD have 35lbs flotation, and are more likely to be worn.
I am not going to say if this happened or that happened they might still be alive, but that we should learn from this tragedy, and implement things that make sense to avoid further incidents like this.
 
quote:Originally posted by beemer

Phnapa,I am not sure that an outpouring of dollars will help anyone, but if you can get it together I am sure you will find many generous souls on this board.

I do think that our discussions and hopefully input to Transport Canada are valuable in saving lives in the future. The reality is this is OUR fishery and if we want changes WE have to make it happen.

I do think that an modern EPIRB could have made a difference here,but sadly we will never know. By having an exact position the Rescue Centre could put out a broadcast to other boaters in the area, most rescues on the water in B.C. are executed by fellow boaters not SAR resources. (SushiHunters heroic rescue last year comes to mind) . If anyone on this coast thinks that they can push a button and a helicopter or Coast Guard will arrive within an hour are sadly mistaken.We live on one of the biggest,sparcely populated, remote and complex coastlines in the world and other boaters are the true lifeline.

You can play out all the possible scenarios of what these guys went through, but if someone knew their position ,they had lifejackets or PFDs on, they could have scrambled on to the overturned hull and they would have had a chance.

It is our responsibility to educate and make any nessasary changes to OUR fishery. The deaths of these four fellow fisherman do not have to be in vain.

beemer
certainly not downplaying the need for the pionts you brought up, i have already made a few changes in my programme, just saying that if there was a need, im sure many people on here could help a little. Not sure if there is a need, dont know the situation, but if there is im sure it would be appreciated, thats all.
 
What do you guys think about the Standard Horizan HX851S hand held VHF with GPS and DSC. It is water proof and floats. Would this be an effective safety device. I know the transmission distance isn't going to be more that about 5 - 8 miles. But would the Coast Guard be able to pick up the Lat and Long. It would definitely alert other boaters in the area. Keep this in a inflateable PFD and wear it while on the water.

http://www.standardhorizon.com/inde...FF5498D5C3153D6E29B&DivisionID=3&isArchived=0

eastpoint
 
Keep this in a inflateable PFD and wear it while on the water.</u>
</u>.

It might be a great idea, but in some cases proper discretion is not being used when it comes to the use of PFD's. You need to fix that problem before offering a solution that hinges on its use.
 
ACR-2884_med.jpg


If you are going to such lengths wouldn't it be a much better idea to put this in your inflatable (that you have committed to wearing)??

[img=left]http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userpics/12747/thumb_xDSC01379.JPG[/img=left]
 
I wear an ACR EPIRB like that on my inflatable mustang when fishing offshore. Equipped with a GPS device that automatically transmits accurate location every 10 minutes or so for up to 48 hours. Goes on at the dock, and off again at the dock. The combo cost less than $1,000 total, and I'm convinced will give me the best available chance of survival (along with the $3,000 life raft I carry, if time to deploy), in the event that something goes south. Many of us put 10's to 100's of thousands into machines to get us out there to fish, but too little on what might get us back in an emergency.
 
lots of good insights. I think that we need to separate personal habits/gear from what is required in a commercial situation.

Let's face it most(not all) commercial operations will only gear their boats to the Transport Canada requirements. People who go out on charters may not understand or know the implications of boat size , weather conditions etc. These customers depend on the "rules" to keep them safe. Commercial Operators are held to a much higher standard than Recreational Operators , yet the gear and safety practices don't always reflect that.

Nothing is going to bring these guys back , but hopefully we can offer some recommendations for the Commercial Industry in their honour.

beemer
 
It makes me sad that over and over it is brought up that the level of MARINE SAFETY should be different for Sportsfisherman or Guides this could happen to any four guys out fishing in the same circumstances. Safety and Prevention is the issue here and should be the same for all...

kittyjuly1409055-1.jpg
 
It makes me sad that over and over it is brought up that the level of MARINE SAFETY should be different for Sportsfisherman or Guides this could happen to any four guys out fishing in the same circumstances. Safety and Prevention is the issue here and should be the same for all...

kittyjuly1409055-1.jpg
 
This tragedy served as a wake up call for me. I have been getting a little to comfortable running offshore and into remote waters with just the standard safety equipment which includes a DSC radio. But this sure sounds like they had no chance to react before the boat capsized. This got me thinking and I actually went out and bought a SPOT GPS tracker today. This is a poor man’s alternative to an EPIRB, that also allows others to view your trip and current location online. It is water proof, compact, and can clip onto your belt loop. Here is an example for some Kayakers in Barkley Sound - http://www.spotadventures.com/trip/view?trip_id=203768 I am also adding to my ditch bag which includes a portable VHF and moved to the cockpit where it is easily accessible rather than down in cabin.

Last year I went out and bought PFD lifejackets for my wife and I after reading about the boat that capsized in Nootka.

transparent_spot3.png
 
This tragedy served as a wake up call for me. I have been getting a little to comfortable running offshore and into remote waters with just the standard safety equipment which includes a DSC radio. But this sure sounds like they had no chance to react before the boat capsized. This got me thinking and I actually went out and bought a SPOT GPS tracker today. This is a poor man’s alternative to an EPIRB, that also allows others to view your trip and current location online. It is water proof, compact, and can clip onto your belt loop. Here is an example for some Kayakers in Barkley Sound - http://www.spotadventures.com/trip/view?trip_id=203768 I am also adding to my ditch bag which includes a portable VHF and moved to the cockpit where it is easily accessible rather than down in cabin.

Last year I went out and bought PFD lifejackets for my wife and I after reading about the boat that capsized in Nootka.

transparent_spot3.png
 
For those thinking of running out and getting those manual operated EPIRB and attaching, or sticking them in their pockets – good luck! Doing that, will an EPIRB make the outcome any different – maybe, maybe not… but only if it is a “floating” on the surface and I don't think I will be betting my life on that one. Then, one needs to understand the response time capabilities (based on weather and position), even if it does go off response times can vary greatly. Time in any water is critical!

FYI… unless things have changed? During normal work “DAY” hours, we had a committed 30 minute to launch time. After normal duty hours and on weekends, unless a specific mission dictated otherwise – the committed “SAR” launch time was TWO HOURS. That is two hours from notification, to launch from our airfield. I believe if you check Canada Forces will have the same requirements, as I very much cross- trained with Canadian pilots – but things do change?

My primary aircraft at that time for that mission was the CH-47D Chinook, referred as the CH-147D Chinook in Canada. They are the same aircraft with very few modifications. Each aircraft was equipped with an ‘Automatically Deployable Emergency Locator Transmitter’ (ADELT) and both Pilots carried separate/individual portable Emergency Survival Radios, so each aircraft was equipped with a minimum of THREE what is now being referred to as ‘Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons’ (EPIRBs) for marine use. That should tell you – they work! But, they are only PART of SURVIVAL gear needed that will make a difference! The very last thing I always put on before any mission was my individual ‘survival vest’, which was required for our missions and worn by all crew members. On missions over water, we were required to wear individual ‘water wings’ and carry ‘Life Raft Kits’, which included survival gear for the appropriate number of personnel on board the aircraft.

EPIRB’s save lives – that is proven! If you chose to get one - get a good one, as your life is going to depend on it - it very well could. Transport Canada requires a “free floating” EPIRB for a reason – those things just don’t seem to transmit very well under water. Then, remember you still have that response time (based on weather and position). If "I" had to make a choice offshore, in the fog, with no other vessels around...I would not only be looking at a good offshore PFD, but would be buying a GOOD automatically deployable - LIFE RAFT! Life rafts don't work very well when tied down to an upside down boats, either! I personally don't care if I am picked up in 30 minutes or 30 hours if in a nice comfortable GOOD life raft, but with the additional use of an EPIRB and located in three hours rather than that 30 hours sounds a little better, doesn't it? However, last thing and what I do NOT want is bob around in that cold water for any length of time just waiting for someone to respond to a radio beacon! The most importand and first thing... I WANT OUT OF THAT WATER - AND I WANT OUT FAST!

Now, while there are times a U.S. and/or Canada military helicopter can and will be diverted from one mission to respond to a ‘life threatening’ emergency – DON”T count on it! Unless that helicopter just happens to be close, happens to have the hoist and other equipment on board and installed, and your Gods are really with you… as a helicopter already half way through another mission will probably NOT have the fuel! That is one reason there is dedicated SAR helicopters on standby! And, it is really tricky for a fixed wing aircraft to do the rescue part of that mission 20 miles offshore and I really can’t see them landing in 15 foot swells? I guess they could drop a life raft, which you should already have as part of your survival gear?

Finally, the coastal waters have been divided into two SAR areas. A DFO/CCG patrol vessel is continuously stationed in each zone to provide SAR coverage. That is the first normally utilized to respond, depending on the circumstances it won’t be any aircraft if a surface vessel is close. I assure you, neither Joint Recue Co-ordination Centre Victoria (JRCC) nor the U.S. Coast Guard District 13 (RCC), or any other JRCC or RCC is going to launch SAR aircraft upon receiving a distress radio beacon. Sorry it just doesn’t work that way, they don’t – they will try contacting to verify first. Usually by VHF or cell phone, then if no contact is made, they will call the contact information, the alternate contact information, and any phone numbers listed on the registration! After that, if an emergency if believed or confirmed, comes the Pan Pan calls– they will then contact the appropriate support units to launch the appropriate SAR units.

Again, sorry but that is the way it is – If you want to run offshore and still have a chance of survival if something happens, an EPIRB would be a good thing to have, but you really need to also - BUY A “GOOD” LIFE RAFT!
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/e0003868


DSC01311-1-2.jpg
 
For those thinking of running out and getting those manual operated EPIRB and attaching, or sticking them in their pockets – good luck! Doing that, will an EPIRB make the outcome any different – maybe, maybe not… but only if it is a “floating” on the surface and I don't think I will be betting my life on that one. Then, one needs to understand the response time capabilities (based on weather and position), even if it does go off response times can vary greatly. Time in any water is critical!

FYI… unless things have changed? During normal work “DAY” hours, we had a committed 30 minute to launch time. After normal duty hours and on weekends, unless a specific mission dictated otherwise – the committed “SAR” launch time was TWO HOURS. That is two hours from notification, to launch from our airfield. I believe if you check Canada Forces will have the same requirements, as I very much cross- trained with Canadian pilots – but things do change?

My primary aircraft at that time for that mission was the CH-47D Chinook, referred as the CH-147D Chinook in Canada. They are the same aircraft with very few modifications. Each aircraft was equipped with an ‘Automatically Deployable Emergency Locator Transmitter’ (ADELT) and both Pilots carried separate/individual portable Emergency Survival Radios, so each aircraft was equipped with a minimum of THREE what is now being referred to as ‘Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons’ (EPIRBs) for marine use. That should tell you – they work! But, they are only PART of SURVIVAL gear needed that will make a difference! The very last thing I always put on before any mission was my individual ‘survival vest’, which was required for our missions and worn by all crew members. On missions over water, we were required to wear individual ‘water wings’ and carry ‘Life Raft Kits’, which included survival gear for the appropriate number of personnel on board the aircraft.

EPIRB’s save lives – that is proven! If you chose to get one - get a good one, as your life is going to depend on it - it very well could. Transport Canada requires a “free floating” EPIRB for a reason – those things just don’t seem to transmit very well under water. Then, remember you still have that response time (based on weather and position). If "I" had to make a choice offshore, in the fog, with no other vessels around...I would not only be looking at a good offshore PFD, but would be buying a GOOD automatically deployable - LIFE RAFT! Life rafts don't work very well when tied down to an upside down boats, either! I personally don't care if I am picked up in 30 minutes or 30 hours if in a nice comfortable GOOD life raft, but with the additional use of an EPIRB and located in three hours rather than that 30 hours sounds a little better, doesn't it? However, last thing and what I do NOT want is bob around in that cold water for any length of time just waiting for someone to respond to a radio beacon! The most importand and first thing... I WANT OUT OF THAT WATER - AND I WANT OUT FAST!

Now, while there are times a U.S. and/or Canada military helicopter can and will be diverted from one mission to respond to a ‘life threatening’ emergency – DON”T count on it! Unless that helicopter just happens to be close, happens to have the hoist and other equipment on board and installed, and your Gods are really with you… as a helicopter already half way through another mission will probably NOT have the fuel! That is one reason there is dedicated SAR helicopters on standby! And, it is really tricky for a fixed wing aircraft to do the rescue part of that mission 20 miles offshore and I really can’t see them landing in 15 foot swells? I guess they could drop a life raft, which you should already have as part of your survival gear?

Finally, the coastal waters have been divided into two SAR areas. A DFO/CCG patrol vessel is continuously stationed in each zone to provide SAR coverage. That is the first normally utilized to respond, depending on the circumstances it won’t be any aircraft if a surface vessel is close. I assure you, neither Joint Recue Co-ordination Centre Victoria (JRCC) nor the U.S. Coast Guard District 13 (RCC), or any other JRCC or RCC is going to launch SAR aircraft upon receiving a distress radio beacon. Sorry it just doesn’t work that way, they don’t – they will try contacting to verify first. Usually by VHF or cell phone, then if no contact is made, they will call the contact information, the alternate contact information, and any phone numbers listed on the registration! After that, if an emergency if believed or confirmed, comes the Pan Pan calls– they will then contact the appropriate support units to launch the appropriate SAR units.

Again, sorry but that is the way it is – If you want to run offshore and still have a chance of survival if something happens, an EPIRB would be a good thing to have, but you really need to also - BUY A “GOOD” LIFE RAFT!
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/e0003868


DSC01311-1-2.jpg
 
Fishing charter eyes beacons

Response to tragedy off Island

By Katie DeRosa, Times Colonist August 12, 2010 1:06 AM

Owners of a fishing charter company in Winter Harbour say they will likely outfit their fleet with emergency locator beacons after four men died during a fishing excursion last week.

"They're not required for every boat but for us, we will definitely have them," said Rob Knutson, who runs the family-owned Qualicum Rivers Fishing Charters and Lodge on the northwest coast of the Island.

He was responding to calls that GPS locators should be mandatory for small vessels, made this week by the family of Port Alberni fishing guide Kevin Sturgess, believed drowned along with the three guests on the boat.

"We'll look into it for sure," Knutson said.

The Qualicum River 9 set out Aug. 2 for a fishing trip in Brooks Bay, but capsized amid gale-force winds and three-metre waves.

Heavy fog hid the grey vessel from search and rescue crews until Saturday. After life-jackets were discovered with the vessel, the search was called off. The coast guard said the search could have taken just a few hours if the vessel had an emergency position-indicating radio beacon.

The devices are required by Transport Canada on vessels larger than eight metres, carrying more than six passengers. But the agency recommends them for all vessels.

Transport Canada will do a "risk audit" on the company's entire fleet, beginning next week, and the Transportation Safety Board is also investigating.

Knutson said the six-metre aluminum vessel was in top working order, with new steering and a new motor installed in June as part of its annual inspection.

The lodge is responsible for inspecting its fleet annually under Transport Canada's Small Vessel Inspection Monitoring Program, which applies to vessels under 15 gross tons that carry fewer then 12 passengers.

Knutson said the lodge sends a report and photos of each vessel to prove they meet safety standards.

WorkSafe B.C. is also investigating the incident, which spokesman Scott McCloy said will likely focus on why the men weren't required by the lodge to wear life-jackets while on the water and why the vessel didn't have a GPS locator.

On the boat with 36-year-old Sturgess were three Americans -- Peter Idlewine, 53, of Brush Prairie, Wash., Gary Evans, 55, of Vancouver, Wash., and Tony Evans, 52, of Portland, Ore.

kderosa@tc.canwest.com

© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Fishing+charter+eyes+beacons/3389350/story.html#ixzz0wOQkthuz


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