Missing Boat

[rainbow one]

I would like to pose this question to all. Why is it that we take chances in somewhat questionable water??? If we keep this in perspective I do think we can make better judgements. We must always leave a little margin for error in our best judgement. By this I simply mean allowing for the weather to get a little worse before our capabilities or our vessels are being out done by poor weather. I did myself turn around once this year to head back due to poor weather. I had 4 people on my boat and they all wanted to go and catch fish real bad. Needless to say this was a very tuff call to make, especially when I was being passed on the way back by boats heading out that were much less of a craft than my 27 footer. The questions were looming thick in the air as to why were we turning around when others were going out. We as captains, must not allow others to pressure us verbally or mentally into doing something we know could turn out to be a poor choice. And lets not forget, this is supposed to be fun and not a test of endurance. It is not fun fishing in those nasty conditions anyways. In the end it turned out to be a great decision because we had sun and calm seas the next day and a 45lb spring in the boat as well. Always remember that it is only fish that we are persuing and they will be there tomorrow.

I don't know if my choice would have been any different on that very same day, however, I must constantly work on myself to do a better job on staying safe and keeping it fun.

This is truly a tragic accident. My deepest sympathy to the families.

RO

 

[Lipripper]

quote:Originally posted by Sushihunter


-Why couldn't the boat be found if it was in the same position for 6 days?

Between the bottom paint and the angles of the upside down hull it wouldn't show on radar. Not enough to not seem like a wave

 

[phnapa]

quote:Originally posted by osprey

As Profisher so astutely pointed out, the vessels we use may not be as seaworthy as we hope. Unless you have huge scuppers in the cockpit area that water will only drain as fast as the two or four small exit holes will allow. I would guess this to be somewhere in the range of 25-60 gallons per minute. Without a self bailing deck it is even worse. A 1500 gph bilge pump flows 25 gallons per minute as rated from the factory. Under real conditions probably only 20 gpm at best. It doesn't take much of an imagination to see why shipping large amounts of water can overwhelm a smaller sport fishing vessel quickly. When is the last time you made sure your float switch and bilge pump(s)worked correctly? Also very few vessels will go back upright when they roll over. The remain bottom of the hull skyward making safety gear all but impossible to retrieve. Manufactures are not required to make them return to an upright position and they don't test for it. Not blaming the manufactures it is just that way. Designing a vessel to return to an upright position would take the cost of the vessel above and beyond what most of us could bear. I think the best piece of safety gear we have is between our ears. Understanding your boats limitations and keeping all safety related equipment handy and in good repair along with making sound judgements on the water will go a long way in keeping us safe. Hope I don't sound like I am on a soapbox. Believe me I have alot of room for improvement in this department as well. Osprey

I agree , ive had this talk with many of my commercial fisher buddies, the staemer grounds, and triangle are no place for sportsfishers, but over the past few years they are there

 

[Brisco]

Terrible thing to happen. I am shocked that they would find the life jackets in the locker. I make my guests put them on anytime the water is rough in the Strait let alone blue water.

 

[Duffer]

Originally posted by Duffer

Well said Jim instead of us pointing fingers everywhere on this thread it should be left for the eventual investigation to happen there are way to many unanswered questions here which we dont know the answers and in respect to family and friends of the fisherman should be left for another thread. It hits close to everyone on here Guides,Sports or Commercial fisherman...


[/quote

Jim's comment about a TC investigation happening in due time is quite obvious to most of us I would think but can we not also discuss these same questions here ? I am not sure Duffer's reply to it makes much sense to me. Duffer, are you implying Jim is saying anything about people on here are pointing fingers ??? I know for myself and hopefully others here, that when there is a forum discussion about an accident and what might have gone wrong, and what could have been done, it is all good. Forum members could come up with some great opinions and ideas. Its called a 'discussion'. The last thing I'd want is this sort of discussion to be sensored by you or anyone. Let TC do the investigation, sure, but is that a reason for us to drop the topic ?

Sorry you took my point the wrong way Pea Head, after doing Search and Rescuses in waters you cant imagine, waters the Coast Guard boats wouldnt go in and finding no survivors for days on end this hits close to home and for now personally I just feel for the family and friends of the victims, Discussion is good, hopefully like others have said something positive comes out of this tragedy...

 

[jjmoffett]

my sympathies go out to all of the families and friends involved in this tragic day!

 

[beemer]

I am sure we will have a big inquiry and the usual debates that go along with it. Hopefully we can have a educated debate on these boards and the memory of these fisherman can be honoured by taking action and educating others as to the risks, gear and common sense that are nessasary to be on the ocean.

I hope that the following topics are explored.

1. Hypothermia does not kill. Cold shock does. The Rescue Centre model gave these guys a maximum of 6 hours in the water
with a lifejacket.Without a lifejacket gives you 10 minutes max.

2. Transport Canada forces small commercial vessels to carry the horsecollar type lifejackets. They are not practical, are difficult to store and customers will not wear them. Why not have a a either or rule for lifejackets and PFD's. Packing full immersion suits on a 19' vessel is not practical and the smaller the boat the faster things happen. I truly doubt anyone would have time to put on a immersion suit.

3. Why aren't small passenger carrying vessels required to have EPIRBS? If the exact lat and long was known of this vessel other mariners could have been to this position within an hour.

4. Why no radar? This area is known for thick fog. Commercial vessels need a minimum standard of electronics and training especially if they are venturing into open water.

May they rest in peace.

beemer

 

[Sushihunter]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Make+beacons+mandatory+Family/3379351/story.html


Make beacons mandatory: Family

Fishing tragedy: With GPS, it wouldn't have taken six days to find boat, guide's sister says

By Katie DeRosa, Times Colonist; Postmedia News August 10, 2010

The family of the Vancouver Island fishing guide who is presumed drowned after an ill-fated charter fishing trip with three other men said electronic beacons should be mandatory on all vessels.

Kevin Sturgess' sister, Trisha Sturgess, said it might not have taken six days to find the six-metre aluminum fishing boat if it had a device that sends out GPS co-ordinates to the coast guard via satellite.

"If those were mandatory, could things have been different?" she asked yesterday.

On Saturday, the Qualicum River 9 was found overturned in Brooks Bay, north of Brooks Peninsula -- the vessel's last known position. The search was called off Sunday.

Missing since Aug. 2, the grey boat was practically invisible in the water and thick grey fog hampered the search. As the days passed, the search expanded well beyond that area, as far south as the waters off Washington state.

Had the boat been outfitted with an Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon (EPIRB), coast guard crews might have found the boat in a matter of hours, according to Paul Tasker, maritime co-ordinator at the Victoria Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre.

"The rescue could have been much more expedited," Tasker said. "EPIRBs save lives, for sure."

The search began when Sturgess and the fishermen -- Peter Idlewine of Brush Prairie, Wash., Gary Evans of Vancouver, Wash., and his brother, Tony Evans of Portland, Ore., led by Sturgess of Port Alberni -- failed to return to Qualicum Rivers Fishing Charters and Lodge in Winter Harbour amid gale-force winds.

Rob Knutson, who runs the lodge with his father and brother, said most chartered fishing boats in the area don't have EPIRBs.

The beacons are required on ships larger than six metres, carrying more than six passengers, according to Transport Canada. But the agency encourages all vessels to use the device, which costs between $1,000 and $2,500.

According to Transport Canada spokesman Jillian Glover, small vessels the size of the boat that was lost are allowed to carry as many as 12 passengers and are not required to be certified or inspected by Transport Canada.

Trisha Sturgess said that, in light of the tragedy, her family might press for expanding the requirements for all vessels to have EPIRBs.

An expedited search might have helped since the men were not wearing the life-jackets on board. Knutson said the decision to wear life-jackets is up to the guide and fishermen.

The investigation is now being handled by Port Hardy RCMP. A Transportation Safety Board official said the federal agency is still trying to determine if it will conduct a full investigation.

© Copyright (c) The Province

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Make+beacons+mandatory+Family/3379351/story.html#ixzz0wDKDcYnQ

Jim's Fishing Charters
www.JimsFishing.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sushihunter250

 

[Aces]

quote:Originally posted by phnapa

quote:Originally posted by osprey

As Profisher so astutely pointed out, the vessels we use may not be as seaworthy as we hope. Unless you have huge scuppers in the cockpit area that water will only drain as fast as the two or four small exit holes will allow. I would guess this to be somewhere in the range of 25-60 gallons per minute. Without a self bailing deck it is even worse. A 1500 gph bilge pump flows 25 gallons per minute as rated from the factory. Under real conditions probably only 20 gpm at best. It doesn't take much of an imagination to see why shipping large amounts of water can overwhelm a smaller sport fishing vessel quickly. When is the last time you made sure your float switch and bilge pump(s)worked correctly? Also very few vessels will go back upright when they roll over. The remain bottom of the hull skyward making safety gear all but impossible to retrieve. Manufactures are not required to make them return to an upright position and they don't test for it. Not blaming the manufactures it is just that way. Designing a vessel to return to an upright position would take the cost of the vessel above and beyond what most of us could bear. I think the best piece of safety gear we have is between our ears. Understanding your boats limitations and keeping all safety related equipment handy and in good repair along with making sound judgements on the water will go a long way in keeping us safe. Hope I don't sound like I am on a soapbox. Believe me I have alot of room for improvement in this department as well. Osprey

I agree , ive had this talk with many of my commercial fisher buddies, the staemer grounds, and triangle are no place for sportsfishers, but over the past few years they are there

I agree 100% with this. I have guided out of Tofino since 1987 - always with a little fear in the back of my mind and our waters are nowhere near as bad as that area.

 

[high tide]

As for the province article, it is NOT ACCURATE !
all vessels including small vessels this size ARE required by TPC to be Inspected and Certified to be compliant with the rules regarding carrying of passengers.
As any legitimate charter outfit know, you must apply for license, be inspected, perform annual self inspections and be totally compliant with the rules determined by the size of your charter craft and the amount of people to be transported.

This is a terrible tragedy that has happened here, but the use of EBIRB's would yes increase their chances, but the common sense, of traveling in pairs, the use of PFD's, judgement of vessel operator and sea conditions etc. can not be overlooked to make the chance of survivability better.

None of us leave the dock in the morning expecting not to return, but there are times when all precautions should be taken. Things happen fast on big water and this is no different then hunting solo, hunting or fishing in cold conditions, hunting steep slopes for MNT. Goat or Sheep, etc. It's the chance we take as sportsmen and women.

This is not meant to point fingers at any one but a number of mistakes have been made here and we should all learn by it. Who knows what happened out there, we may never know, but it up to us as fishermen, guides, owners and operators what we think taking a chance to catch a fish is worth. No fish is worth loosing a life over.

My condolences to the friends and families of the lost, my heart goes out to you.

HT

 

[Bear Cove]

In your last post Jim, it said according to Jillian Glover a TC spokesmen said that a small vessel the size of the one lost can carry up to 12 passengers and is not required to be certified or inspected by TC.

Is that true? I thought any boat used in a commerical application, IE... paid charter had to take part in and comply with TC small inspection program.

Bear Cove Cottages Sports Fishing Destination
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada

 

[high tide]

NO THIS IS NOT TRUE ........ This is NOT ACCURATE ..... if it is a legitimate Charter.

BEWARE OF MICKEY MOUSE NON INSPECTED NON COMPLIANT operators, they are out there !

HT

 

[Duffer]

Definately not accurate, I have a 24' Wellcraft and after the Stability test was completed MAX 4 Customers and myself. Transport Canada also recommends the size of water you can operate your boat in safely. Im sure these boats had Stability Tests Completed before operating legally this summer. As well as every other Guide or Outfit out there thats operating under the rules..

 

[Bear Cove]

Thats what I thought, but when reading it I would assume that these boats did not need to be inspected, sure hope they were. I run a 25 Grady, did the full inspection before the summer started. I have weight limits as well water and weather limits I have to abide by in order for my insurance to be valid.

Anyways, thoughts are with the families, play safe.

Bear Cove Cottages Sports Fishing Destination
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada

 

[Sushihunter]

I knew the Province article would catch your attention. That's why I boldfaced those lines.

This is why I object to the TC rules - even they don't know what they are and are continually giving out misleading info and changing their mind as to what the regs require.

Jim's Fishing Charters
www.JimsFishing.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sushihunter250

 

[Peahead]

quote:Originally posted by Sushihunter

Peahead, and others:

My comments here are not meant to shut down any discussion on this forum. Unlike some comments sections on other news sites, the discussion here has been very respectful of the people who lost their lives in this terrible accident.

We all want to know what happened. That's just human nature. It's why we slow down at traffic accidents, and why fires attract crowds.

But more than that, we want to understand what went wrong, and how we can prevent that very thing from happening to us and our guests. That is also the reason that TC and other agencies do in-depth investigations into accidents such as this. To understand and prevent future accidents.

I view all respectful discussion to be positive and hope that we will all learn lessons from this tragedy. Maybe that EPIRB is not as expensive as it seems.

Let’s all stay safe out there.


Jim's Fishing Charters
www.JimsFishing.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sushihunter250

Yeah I understand that Jim.....no problem it was Duffer's reply that I thought took your post that way and then mentioning about the posts here pointing fingers too much. Sorry Duffer, I did take your post the wrong way I guess. I thought you were suggesting we should not discuss/speculate aboutwhat wehnt wrong in this tragedy. Anyway you are allowed your opinion as are others. I do understand your point about this beeing 'close to home' for you. Sounds like you had some horrific experiences yourself. Thank you for your SAR work on the water!

 

[Peahead]

quote:Originally posted by beemer

I am sure we will have a big inquiry and the usual debates that go along with it. Hopefully we can have a educated debate on these boards and the memory of these fisherman can be honoured by taking action and educating others as to the risks, gear and common sense that are nessasary to be on the ocean.

I hope that the following topics are explored.

1. Hypothermia does not kill. Cold shock does. The Rescue Centre model gave these guys a maximum of 6 hours in the water
with a lifejacket.Without a lifejacket gives you 10 minutes max.

2. Transport Canada forces small commercial vessels to carry the horsecollar type lifejackets. They are not practical, are difficult to store and customers will not wear them. Why not have a a either or rule for lifejackets and PFD's. Packing full immersion suits on a 19' vessel is not practical and the smaller the boat the faster things happen. I truly doubt anyone would have time to put on a immersion suit.

3. Why aren't small passenger carrying vessels required to have EPIRBS? If the exact lat and long was known of this vessel other mariners could have been to this position within an hour.

4. Why no radar? This area is known for thick fog. Commercial vessels need a minimum standard of electronics and training especially if they are venturing into open water.

May they rest in peace.

beemer

Hi Beemer (and others here)

Beemer your item # 1 above mentions 6 hours with life jacket and 10 minutes without ??????? .....anyone have an opinion on that? Obviously temperature of the water and body movement, body fat, etc etc would alter the figures but in 10 degees C water for 6 hours (with life jacket on) seems waaayyyyy longer than I would have estimated or understood (???)

 

[fishingbc]

quote:Originally posted by Sushihunter


http://www.theprovince.com/news/Make+beacons+mandatory+Family/3379351/story.html


Make beacons mandatory: Family

Fishing tragedy: With GPS, it wouldn't have taken six days to find boat, guide's sister says

By Katie DeRosa, Times Colonist; Postmedia News August 10, 2010

The family of the Vancouver Island fishing guide who is presumed drowned after an ill-fated charter fishing trip with three other men said electronic beacons should be mandatory on all vessels.

Kevin Sturgess' sister, Trisha Sturgess, said it might not have taken six days to find the six-metre aluminum fishing boat if it had a device that sends out GPS co-ordinates to the coast guard via satellite.

"If those were mandatory, could things have been different?" she asked yesterday.

On Saturday, the Qualicum River 9 was found overturned in Brooks Bay, north of Brooks Peninsula -- the vessel's last known position. The search was called off Sunday.

Missing since Aug. 2, the grey boat was practically invisible in the water and thick grey fog hampered the search. As the days passed, the search expanded well beyond that area, as far south as the waters off Washington state.

Had the boat been outfitted with an Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon (EPIRB), coast guard crews might have found the boat in a matter of hours, according to Paul Tasker, maritime co-ordinator at the Victoria Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre.

"The rescue could have been much more expedited," Tasker said. "EPIRBs save lives, for sure."

The search began when Sturgess and the fishermen -- Peter Idlewine of Brush Prairie, Wash., Gary Evans of Vancouver, Wash., and his brother, Tony Evans of Portland, Ore., led by Sturgess of Port Alberni -- failed to return to Qualicum Rivers Fishing Charters and Lodge in Winter Harbour amid gale-force winds.

Rob Knutson, who runs the lodge with his father and brother, said most chartered fishing boats in the area don't have EPIRBs.

The beacons are required on ships larger than six metres, carrying more than six passengers, according to Transport Canada. But the agency encourages all vessels to use the device, which costs between $1,000 and $2,500.

According to Transport Canada spokesman Jillian Glover, small vessels the size of the boat that was lost are allowed to carry as many as 12 passengers and are not required to be certified or inspected by Transport Canada.

Trisha Sturgess said that, in light of the tragedy, her family might press for expanding the requirements for all vessels to have EPIRBs.

An expedited search might have helped since the men were not wearing the life-jackets on board. Knutson said the decision to wear life-jackets is up to the guide and fishermen.

The investigation is now being handled by Port Hardy RCMP. A Transportation Safety Board official said the federal agency is still trying to determine if it will conduct a full investigation.

© Copyright (c) The Province

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Make+beacons+mandatory+Family/3379351/story.html#ixzz0wDKDcYnQ

Jim's Fishing Charters
www.JimsFishing.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sushihunter250

GILLIAN GLOVER 1-604-666-9307 CALL AND ASK HER TO EXPLAIN HER COMMENTS.....

 

[reddog303]

Before we make EPIRBS mandatory on all vessels maybe we should look at how many people have been saved by them?? Lost people I know that had EPIRBS they did not make any differance.Training ,common sense, and using the equipment required that might have been the best aid..

 

[Bear Cove]

In reading Jillian's comments again, she makes no reference to commerical operated boats. She states only "small vessels the size of the boat that was lost are allowed to carry up to 12 people and are not required to be certified or inspected by TC"

She did not state that the boat in question needed to be inspected, only that boats that size do not need to be inspected. I am only assuming that if she was asked about the boat in question she would have said it needed to be in compliance with TC rules.

Bear Cove Cottages Sports Fishing Destination
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada