Wolf..give it a break. We are PASSENGER carrying vessels!!!! Jo blow is not. We are supposed to be paid responsible professionals. Do other professionals not get periodic training by way of required classes. Never hear of an outboard mechanic having to go over to Vancouver for some class time to familiarize themselves with new products or procedures? There is even training for my other line of work (Fire Equipment) from time to time as fire codes and products change. Learning is an ongoing part of being a professional. Get used to it, NOBODY knows everything.
New Guide Certification Guidelines
- Thread starter Cuba Libre
- Start date
wolf
Well-Known Member
I know that PRO but so is everyone else. if you cant see that I dont know what your looking at
Its about taking passengers out am I not right be it professionally or pleasure which we do both??? thats all im saying and like I stated earlier I need 1 more and ill be just as classified as you so you by the beginning of the summer as for training what else do we need we are JUST fishing NOT getting upto date knowledge on new engines if there is a new way of putting on an anchovie or better way of putting the hook into a cut plug well we better sign up for another course.
The last statement you made is for new info in 2 different occupations and regarding new eguipment you dont have to be hostile
wolf
Its about taking passengers out am I not right be it professionally or pleasure which we do both??? thats all im saying and like I stated earlier I need 1 more and ill be just as classified as you so you by the beginning of the summer as for training what else do we need we are JUST fishing NOT getting upto date knowledge on new engines if there is a new way of putting on an anchovie or better way of putting the hook into a cut plug well we better sign up for another course.
The last statement you made is for new info in 2 different occupations and regarding new eguipment you dont have to be hostile
wolf
Missed your last comment about my full time status. Well I've guided for 23 years, and added the "Fire Safe" business 12 years ago to fill in the off season down time. I answer only to myself and fish whenever I get a request...year round. I don't have to ask a boss for time off to do a trip...well I guess I have to give myself permission. Does that qualify as full time...or should I be downgraded to part time status for not wanting to sit at home on the days nobody calls to fish? I've yet to meet anyone who works daily and year round by guiding locally. The closest would be the few guys who fish here during the summer then head down south in the winter to work Cabo or Costa Rica. Great for a single guy!! Sometimes I wish. 
Its all about on water safety!! Getting a tourist from a far away country back to the dock safely. Tourism is all WORD OF MOUTH, bad press can kill. Tourists dying would be a business killer. Let me use a better analogy to your argument about recreational fishers needing the same training. Does everyone who flys a light personal aircraft have to have the same training as those flying COMMERCIAL passenger aircraft? Is the average guy who holds a driver license trained at the same level as paid professionals? Don't worry, nobody will force you to roll anchovy a certain way, although this might actually help a few people catch more fish!
wolf
Well-Known Member
Thats fine BUT for us all to drive a car we all need a drivers lic. right and we all have friends travel with us as a PASSENGER in our car so does that mean we are commercial.
so how is a boat different ???? if you have an accident in a car you as the driver, are liable as the driver so if your driving a boat and an accident happens be it as buddies going out to have fun.
It the same thing I just dont like double standards.
Its a form of transportion be it boat,plane,car etc the "drivers" of such said vehicles are liable as a safety concern it doesnt matter if you are commercial or not it has to do with "SAFETY"
You have to look at it all from all angles. thats all im saying
You cant argue that you and myself have seen so much stuff done wrong out there Rollie especially this year guys breaking down and that windsurfer who god only knows where he ended up we need SAFTY on the water for EVERYONE.
We biatch at the FN fishery and the seperate laws and privalages they seem to get, and we all have said before ONE rule for all of us so why not this????ALL boat "owners" should have a lic more than that joke of the poc thats a grade 1 piece of laminate.
FROM a SAFTY point of view.
it just seems like a money grab and its all politics
Wolf
so how is a boat different ???? if you have an accident in a car you as the driver, are liable as the driver so if your driving a boat and an accident happens be it as buddies going out to have fun.
It the same thing I just dont like double standards.
Its a form of transportion be it boat,plane,car etc the "drivers" of such said vehicles are liable as a safety concern it doesnt matter if you are commercial or not it has to do with "SAFETY"
You have to look at it all from all angles. thats all im saying
You cant argue that you and myself have seen so much stuff done wrong out there Rollie especially this year guys breaking down and that windsurfer who god only knows where he ended up we need SAFTY on the water for EVERYONE.
We biatch at the FN fishery and the seperate laws and privalages they seem to get, and we all have said before ONE rule for all of us so why not this????ALL boat "owners" should have a lic more than that joke of the poc thats a grade 1 piece of laminate.
FROM a SAFTY point of view.
it just seems like a money grab and its all politics
Wolf
Klob
Well-Known Member
I think the difference Wolf, is your passengers are paying. It would be nice if the goal posts did not move every time.I also think there should be some credence given to all the past hours most of us have spent on the water, and past relevent courses and certification, some type of Grandfathering.
wolf
Well-Known Member
I agree they are paying but it doesnt matter.
If your driving a car and (god forbid) you kill someone you are liable just look at dany heatly he was charged killing his friend and he wasnt a "paying customer"
this is all about safty and I would like as you say the goal posts (good Analogy)not to move not saying a "sporty" needs what we need but something alot better than if we need ALL this stuff everyone should need something to as a "boatowner" it just makes sense.
wolf
Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
If your driving a car and (god forbid) you kill someone you are liable just look at dany heatly he was charged killing his friend and he wasnt a "paying customer"
this is all about safty and I would like as you say the goal posts (good Analogy)not to move not saying a "sporty" needs what we need but something alot better than if we need ALL this stuff everyone should need something to as a "boatowner" it just makes sense.
wolf
Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
SerengetiGuide
Well-Known Member
What about at the lodges where guests from Texas, and Europe go then run out in little tin cans out to the west coast of the Charlottes, never driven a boat before and are self guided...now that is a disaster waiting to happen.
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
SerengetiGuide
Well-Known Member
It's just more likely by a large portion that they are going to get themselves into a sticky situation before any guide I know does, the guides in our area know when **** is going to hit the fan weather wise, and know the area well and almost all have boats that are suitable for the fishing grounds. Whereas, west coast of charlottes, some of the nastiest weather, the least experienced boaters possible, little tiny tin cans of boats with low HP engines on them that aren't the best maintained to begin with, out in the middle of fishing grounds they have no idea about or have no idea when to see that bad weather is coming.
To me it is pretty clear where something is more likely to go wrong...biggggg difference.
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
To me it is pretty clear where something is more likely to go wrong...biggggg difference.
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
Tailspin
Active Member
Hate to say it but, the required courses and content involved with the exception of first aid that is always updated, are pretty foggy now. Experience and Common Sense is hard to teach.
Any training is good training IMO, i just wish when i did all, that it was in a simplified in condensed version with related content directed at what we do, not deploying lifeboats and rafts(although interesting). The TAG Program appears to be on target with that.
www.tailspincharters.com
Any training is good training IMO, i just wish when i did all, that it was in a simplified in condensed version with related content directed at what we do, not deploying lifeboats and rafts(although interesting). The TAG Program appears to be on target with that.
www.tailspincharters.com
highlights
Active Member
I don't know how many courses I have taken over the years. All sorts of scuba, flying, first aid, med, power squadron etc.....
I passed all of these courses at the 90%-97% level. Not too shabby I'd say. Many of these courses I continue to take as an elective upgrade for the work and play I do.
My point however is that I could not tell you half of what I learned in any of those courses. Unless I am reciting from text daily, most of the info is long but forgotten when you really need it. Alot of those shallow areas of the Sooke basin can attest to that if anyone was to ever navigate through there. I have watched alot of anglers waiting to follow other boats out because they are uncertain of all the markers.
........on another note however, the more we are pressured to partake in initiatives such as this, we are slowly ensuring we are taken seriously by the powers that be in government. If we comply with everything as dictated then we eventually carry an amount of "CLOUT" that not even Ottawa could ignore anymore.
So lets join the loggers and the commercial guys. Let them organise and regulate us. We just might find that it may get us somewhere in the longrun with our government.
I passed all of these courses at the 90%-97% level. Not too shabby I'd say. Many of these courses I continue to take as an elective upgrade for the work and play I do.
My point however is that I could not tell you half of what I learned in any of those courses. Unless I am reciting from text daily, most of the info is long but forgotten when you really need it. Alot of those shallow areas of the Sooke basin can attest to that if anyone was to ever navigate through there. I have watched alot of anglers waiting to follow other boats out because they are uncertain of all the markers.
........on another note however, the more we are pressured to partake in initiatives such as this, we are slowly ensuring we are taken seriously by the powers that be in government. If we comply with everything as dictated then we eventually carry an amount of "CLOUT" that not even Ottawa could ignore anymore.
So lets join the loggers and the commercial guys. Let them organise and regulate us. We just might find that it may get us somewhere in the longrun with our government.
Dave and myself and most others probably agree accidents will and can occur at the un-guided lodges far more realistically than that of the guided sorts.
On another subject...the one I can't believe is how we all have a PCOC but an unregistered washington vessel with no boating experience can just come right over and jump right in...no questions asked. Nothing against Washington boaters as a whole just wondering when the rules should apply to everyone
Talk about accidents waiting to happen and if you think it doesn't...I witnessed a horrible one a few years ago late summer in Nootka.
Safety was no where in site when they allowed exempt user groups that are most certainly higher risk!
Knowledge and experience of weather and an area is what is most important.
Policies are put in place all the time but if doesn't make sence economically for the government...look out.
www.coastwidesportsfishing.com
http://ca.video.yahoo.com/watch/4726988?fr=yvmtf
On another subject...the one I can't believe is how we all have a PCOC but an unregistered washington vessel with no boating experience can just come right over and jump right in...no questions asked. Nothing against Washington boaters as a whole just wondering when the rules should apply to everyone
Talk about accidents waiting to happen and if you think it doesn't...I witnessed a horrible one a few years ago late summer in Nootka.
Safety was no where in site when they allowed exempt user groups that are most certainly higher risk!
Knowledge and experience of weather and an area is what is most important.
Policies are put in place all the time but if doesn't make sence economically for the government...look out.
www.coastwidesportsfishing.com
http://ca.video.yahoo.com/watch/4726988?fr=yvmtf
searun
Well-Known Member
Guys, I have to say there is an OBVIOUS difference between Joe Blow rec angler (whether they come from Wash State or not) and a Commercial Charter Operator. I strongly believe that it is high time for proper regulation and full compliance to ensure that our industry does not suffer from a few red necks who operate less than safe vessels.
I have personally seen a so called professional guide who got lost in the fog off Bamfield despite having radar and gps (working perfectly)...he gets lost and ends up in Ucluelet (7 miles from where he thought he was). Only an act of God prevented him from running up on the rock pile, killing everyone on board. Same guy asked me at the dock if you could follow me out to 7 mile bank in perfect weather...because he didn't know the way there!!! This exemplifies why we need licensed guides who are fully trained. This guy did not have any training, and according to him runs the biggest charter operation in Port Alberni...OMG...stay in the Alberni Inlet where you belong is what I'm thinking! Operators like this would not be able to operate legally if we had a license system that was enforceable.
The current system is a JOKE. After spending countless dollars modifying my vessel to comply with the regulations, attending all the required courses I'm totally sick and tired of seeing the back yard guides running under the radar and potentially getting away with murder. It's time for a proper license system with proper on vessel license stickers like they do with the Commercial Fishing Fleet so you can easily identify as a customer if you are stepping onto a commercial sport fishing vessel which is licensed......and no the "C" numbers would not do the job, because any commercial vessel has to display these numbers.
On the issue of the "unguided" resort boats, I concur this is extremely dangerous. I would not want to be their insurer. There have been fatal accidents in the Charlotte's directly attributable to inexperience. Crazy program from a pure legal liability perspective...if they keep having accidents, the insurance rates will put them out of business in short order.
I have personally seen a so called professional guide who got lost in the fog off Bamfield despite having radar and gps (working perfectly)...he gets lost and ends up in Ucluelet (7 miles from where he thought he was). Only an act of God prevented him from running up on the rock pile, killing everyone on board. Same guy asked me at the dock if you could follow me out to 7 mile bank in perfect weather...because he didn't know the way there!!! This exemplifies why we need licensed guides who are fully trained. This guy did not have any training, and according to him runs the biggest charter operation in Port Alberni...OMG...stay in the Alberni Inlet where you belong is what I'm thinking! Operators like this would not be able to operate legally if we had a license system that was enforceable.
The current system is a JOKE. After spending countless dollars modifying my vessel to comply with the regulations, attending all the required courses I'm totally sick and tired of seeing the back yard guides running under the radar and potentially getting away with murder. It's time for a proper license system with proper on vessel license stickers like they do with the Commercial Fishing Fleet so you can easily identify as a customer if you are stepping onto a commercial sport fishing vessel which is licensed......and no the "C" numbers would not do the job, because any commercial vessel has to display these numbers.
On the issue of the "unguided" resort boats, I concur this is extremely dangerous. I would not want to be their insurer. There have been fatal accidents in the Charlotte's directly attributable to inexperience. Crazy program from a pure legal liability perspective...if they keep having accidents, the insurance rates will put them out of business in short order.
Searun, glad I'm not the only one thinking this way. Bringing rec boaters and self guiders into the fray is only a poor attempt at deflecting the issue of their own competency! Those other boaters are a different issue and by the way I agree rec boaters also need more knowledge and inexperienced self guided is a disaster waiting to happen. That is a different issue and a discussion for another thread. This is about guides being trained professionals, able to cope with on water emergencies and looking after "Paid passengers" who have put their trust in your ability to deal with things they know little or nothing about. Years of on water experience is very important but so is knowing how to read a chart, plotting a course in unfamiliar waters, putting out a fire, knowing how to stop water penetration from a hole punched into a hull or a bad thru hull fitting...the list of things to know is endless. I know there are many guides who don't come close to knowing enough. Many don't even maintain their boat/equipment properly and have no idea how to tell when repairs are needed before a total mechanical failure occurs. I too personally know of a guide who was lost in the fog and didn't know how to use his gps/plotter to find himself or his destination. Ended up floating around in the shallows of Sooke Harbour until the fog lifted....how would you feel as a paid customer in that situation?
Something else to think about. those who take the SVOP now are able to legally operate a passenger vessel up to 15 gross tons. Lets call that up to the average 38 to 40 foot fishing boat. The rules change next year and the SVOP taken after that time will only allow that operator to legally operate a passenger vessel up to 5 gross tons. The average 26-28 footer. Those already through the course are grandfathered to 15 tons. If not you are bumped up to requiring a masters restricted for anything between 5 and 15 tons....a much harder and longer course!!! Get it done now.
SerengetiGuide
Well-Known Member
quote:Originally posted by profisher
Something else to think about. those who take the SVOP now are able to legally operate a passenger vessel up to 15 gross tons. Lets call that up to the average 38 to 40 foot fishing boat. The rules change next year and the SVOP taken after that time will only allow that operator to legally operate a passenger vessel up to 5 gross tons. The average 26-28 footer. Those already through the course are grandfathered to 15 tons. If not you are bumped up to requiring a masters restricted for anything between 5 and 15 tons....a much harder and longer course!!! Get it done now.
What if you already have your LM?? Still need SVOP??
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
P
powder
Guest
Profisher,most of us in this discussion are not against the courses now required to charter fish in B.C. saltwater, including the SVOP.What we were questioning is why the SFI has married transport canada and created yet another course which really has the same three required courses most of us already have. As Wolf said, over regulation bothers a lot of people. I am in agreement these courses already in place and being taken as required are fine, such as the new SVOP. The thought of SFI possibly relabeling the courses already in existence and then creating more hoops threw transport canada is a drag. If you think this industry is so dangerous and with huge potential for turning off foreign tourists, look at the ski business in Canada and B.C. Lots of disasters every season, including many tragedies, and has not slowed down the marketing,or the tourists. I agree we need to continue to learn, but having SFI coming up with a course possibly to become mandatory is not overly welcome. A voluntary course available is another matter. What is wrong with the course providers we currently have? Are these courses recognized by transport canada not sufficient? I personally am happy with the required courses we have presently, along with marine first aid. As said by many a big part of learning is threw hands on experience.
SerengetiGuide
Well-Known Member
quote:Originally posted by profisher
Something else to think about. those who take the SVOP now are able to legally operate a passenger vessel up to 15 gross tons. Lets call that up to the average 38 to 40 foot fishing boat. The rules change next year and the SVOP taken after that time will only allow that operator to legally operate a passenger vessel up to 5 gross tons. The average 26-28 footer. Those already through the course are grandfathered to 15 tons. If not you are bumped up to requiring a masters restricted for anything between 5 and 15 tons....a much harder and longer course!!! Get it done now.
I searched everywhere and no where could I find information to concur with that...the old man could use this though.
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
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