Line length
- Thread starter Theb55
- Start date
Fisher_dude
Crew Member
this is where i got it from. He is using it on fresh water but the same applies to the salt.
http://www.lymanlures.com/tip-display.php?id=21
http://www.lymanlures.com/tip-display.php?id=21
Charlie, what I'm trying to say is that the larger loop means a slower revolution rate. So the farther back from the clip the slower it turns. Obviously there are minimum and maximums. Having the flasher right up to the tip of the rod and dip it under to test bait action and the flasher revolves as fast as it is going to at that boat speed. Put it back 40 feet and the flasher turns slower by a significant amount. Put it back 80 feet and the difference in loop size or speed of revolutions compared to 40 feet is not as noticeable. So the distance between the flasher and the clip does have an impact on the lure action. I'm sure I read in your 1st post that it doesn't, only leader length does?
searun
Well-Known Member
That's how I read it also. Closer to pin faster the rotation, so at really slow speeds you can get good rotation close to pin, simple as that. Makes a difference for Sockeye. Put it to the test, run one back 15 to 20 feet with same gear on one side of your boat, and closer on the other and see which catches the most. Haven't seen too many commercial trollers fishing sockeye or chums with long tag lines between wire and flasher either.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
WTF are you still talking about? Do you just want to find something to argue about, or just trying to prove yourself right? Or, shall we just start arguing over semantics? I have already stated, I was not clear in my first post and needed clarify what I said. I believe the second post is very clear? Would YOU like to dispute or argue over anything in that second post? If so, ... BRING IT ON!
I have already made it perfectly clear I was referring to the action of the flasher ONLY and NOT the action the flasher puts on the bait/lure. None the less, YOU keep bringing up the action the flasher puts on the bait/lure, WHY, is that? Are you just trying to prove something???
Here... this is modified just for you! "Note: Leader length may vary from year to year and from one location to another. This helps make fishing so fascinating - "YOU" can "never know it all! "
Cheers and have a great day!
Charlie, this is the line from the 1st post that has me confused? You repeated it again in the 2nd post (not word for word but close) Quote "The line distance from the release clip to the flasher(drop back) has absulutely NO effect on the action of any bait behind a flasher,." That is the one line I don't agree with as it reads.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
Okay, I already have stated the first post needed to be clarified, which I did in the second post..
That particular comment was in conjunction with the use of a long leader, not a short leader!
Answer is easy there... First post... GONE!
Now, just exactly what in the second post do you think is wrong? I will be more than glad to discuss!
hambone
Well-Known Member
Somewhat off topic but I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried this with hoochies for salmon, one trailing the other?? It's commonly done in warmer waters for things like Dorado so I don't see why not.
next time you think about running plugs, try this. Gives the impression of one chasing another. Might give you the little advantage over other guys and you might start catching more fish.
Fish-Hunter
Active Member
Charlie, I missed the play on words of your first post, I got your point and it all rang true with the logic that I have been employing in my fishing techniques. Profisher, I get what you are saying too, I think that both you and Charlie are saying the same thing just two different ways, both make sense, except for one thing..... How in the hell do you see the roll of the flasher or the bait/lure for that matter (assuming that it is anywhere from 24" to 120" behind the flasher) when one is employing 45 to 120 feet of drop-back from the rigger line. Being a bit of a smart butt here, but I have never run these long drop back lengths because I can't see how my lure and flasher are acting. I guess that one could test out the action with a short drop back where it is still in visible range, but then that would not be an indicitive action of a greater drop back, as the greater the drop back the slower/softer the action on the flasher, and somewhat on the lure also, as it won't be changing direction as quickly and erratically.
Key-rye-st the deeper one gets into this, the more it appears that one should have a fishing-degree to manage all of the variables involved. No wonder so many fishermen drink.
Cheers guys, thanks for the info, always learning here.
Jay.
Key-rye-st the deeper one gets into this, the more it appears that one should have a fishing-degree to manage all of the variables involved. No wonder so many fishermen drink.
Cheers guys, thanks for the info, always learning here.
Jay.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
There really wasn’t any play on words. It was the order the sentences where in, so while correct, what I was trying to say was not clear. The second post took care of that.
I will answer your question, with a question - "being a smart butt" myself.
How in the hell do you see the roll (or action) of/on anything 30 feet directly under the boat? I'll answer for you, you probably are not! The action on the bait is checked before it is let out and goes down.
One of the points I was trying to make is the flasher will have the same action to it whether the drop back is three feet, 30 feet, or 300 feet. The only thing that will change is the circle/loop it will make. Which BTW... also makes it travel and cover a larger area of water – THE ACTION IS THE SAME ON THE FLASHER! With a “LONG LEADER” from the flasher to the bait (e.g. “6-10 feet”), the action of the flasher will NOT affect the action of the bait. That nice tight roll of 60 RPM will still be there. That is NOT the case if it has a 42" leader from the flasher to bait!
I have and do, use long drop backs up to 100 feet “AT TIMES” and “if I have a reason”. One reason is using a drop somewhere between 50 to 100 feet, it will entirely negate any effects from a hot boat. That also negates any effects of Cannon PIC system.
Another reason, I like to target large salmon that like to hold close to shore, in those nice little back eddies no one fishes. Three such back eddies immediately comes to mind that are very small and surrounded by shoals. One cannot effectively troll through them. So, I increase the drop back far enough the bait will go over the shoal and as soon as I believe it has cleared and is in the hole (pocket); I put the boat in neutral, letting the bait settle toward the bottom, then pop the line off and start retrieving with small erratic jerks. Can you relate to mooching... while trolling? If you know of a small back eddy, where those large Chinook like to hold (e.g. Conuma 4 years in a very small back eddy a Ferrer Point), you might want to try that – you will love the results!
My normal drop back, most of the time happens to be 25-30 “pulls.” 25 of my pulls is approximately 20 feet. Other than that I will leave with these quotes.
From Cannon:
“It is best to use a short drop back between the downrigger release and the lure. Drop backs of 10 to 20 ft. are typical”
From Hot Spot:
“A typical Chinook Salmon setup is 18 ft. of 30 lb. leader between the 11" original Hot Spot and the downrigger release, and 42" of 30 lb. tail leader to the hoochie.”
“When fishing at shallow depths (less than 40 ft.) for Trout and Salmon (large Chinooks), a longer leader (30-70 ft.) from release to flasher is recommended.”
“The usual setup is 60" to 72" tail leaders and trolling speeds of 2.3 to 3.0 M.P.H. Rolling the bait at 60 rpm will almost always bring results.“
I will answer your question, with a question - "being a smart butt" myself.
How in the hell do you see the roll (or action) of/on anything 30 feet directly under the boat? I'll answer for you, you probably are not! The action on the bait is checked before it is let out and goes down.
One of the points I was trying to make is the flasher will have the same action to it whether the drop back is three feet, 30 feet, or 300 feet. The only thing that will change is the circle/loop it will make. Which BTW... also makes it travel and cover a larger area of water – THE ACTION IS THE SAME ON THE FLASHER! With a “LONG LEADER” from the flasher to the bait (e.g. “6-10 feet”), the action of the flasher will NOT affect the action of the bait. That nice tight roll of 60 RPM will still be there. That is NOT the case if it has a 42" leader from the flasher to bait!
I have and do, use long drop backs up to 100 feet “AT TIMES” and “if I have a reason”. One reason is using a drop somewhere between 50 to 100 feet, it will entirely negate any effects from a hot boat. That also negates any effects of Cannon PIC system.
Another reason, I like to target large salmon that like to hold close to shore, in those nice little back eddies no one fishes. Three such back eddies immediately comes to mind that are very small and surrounded by shoals. One cannot effectively troll through them. So, I increase the drop back far enough the bait will go over the shoal and as soon as I believe it has cleared and is in the hole (pocket); I put the boat in neutral, letting the bait settle toward the bottom, then pop the line off and start retrieving with small erratic jerks. Can you relate to mooching... while trolling? If you know of a small back eddy, where those large Chinook like to hold (e.g. Conuma 4 years in a very small back eddy a Ferrer Point), you might want to try that – you will love the results!
My normal drop back, most of the time happens to be 25-30 “pulls.” 25 of my pulls is approximately 20 feet. Other than that I will leave with these quotes.
From Cannon:
“It is best to use a short drop back between the downrigger release and the lure. Drop backs of 10 to 20 ft. are typical”
From Hot Spot:
“A typical Chinook Salmon setup is 18 ft. of 30 lb. leader between the 11" original Hot Spot and the downrigger release, and 42" of 30 lb. tail leader to the hoochie.”
“When fishing at shallow depths (less than 40 ft.) for Trout and Salmon (large Chinooks), a longer leader (30-70 ft.) from release to flasher is recommended.”
“The usual setup is 60" to 72" tail leaders and trolling speeds of 2.3 to 3.0 M.P.H. Rolling the bait at 60 rpm will almost always bring results.“
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Fish-Hunter
Active Member
Thanks Charlie,
Cheers, and tight lines.
I will answer your question, with a question - "being a smart butt" myself.
How in the hell do you see the roll (or action) of/on anything 30 feet directly under the boat? I'll answer for you, you probably are not! The action on the bait is checked before it is let out and goes down.
What I have been doing is dunk the flasher about 20-30 feet to get it working and then run it back up to the surface to see what it is doing and how it is performing. I do this to see what aproximate speed we need for the conditions of that spot and day, this does not however indicate what the flasher and lure will be doing down 30-150 feet in the currents down there. (maybe need a GO-PRO Camera and really bright light
My normal drop back, most of the time happens to be 25-30 “pulls.” 25 of my pulls is approximately 20 feet.
This does sound similar to what I have been doing to date.
“The usual setup is 60" to 72" tail leaders and trolling speeds of 2.3 to 3.0 M.P.H. Rolling the bait at 60 rpm will almost always bring results.“
I have always wondered about the speed issue and how critical it really is, I think that it is of more of a concern for bait/lure presentation than for going too fast for the fish, I have seen these fish swim, and man can they move. We bounce the speed up and down lots and change course often as this seems to be when most strikes occur, I believe that these changes in speed are putting the lure at that critical speed to entice a strike, there just needs to be a hungry fish there when you achieve that critical speed.
Cheers, and tight lines.
thinking back to the 60s, 70s and 80s, sophisticated DR releases were not present so we invented our own. that let us drop back about 7' behind the ball. we also paid attention to smaller dodgers, flashers were not there yet, and the colors we used based on what we knew about loss of color as depth increased. that had us using double ought les davis chrome trailing double stack hootchies in white and blue. as my tackle has grown, i decided this past season to think retro, and guess what, it still works. i am going to tie some blue and white flies for this coming season, just as we used way back when, and see what happens. going to add some abe and als as well as their 'roll' action is quite a bit different. at the end of the day, none of us need very much tackle to do what we do but it is sure tempting everytime i walk down an aisle at the local emporium.
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