ship happens
Well-Known Member
What does estimations in sockeye have to do with actual biomass of herring?
Herring Fishery
- Thread starter Hardy Guy
- Start date
Only to point out that a DFO estimate is just that, an estimate, and it has been observed to be wildly inaccurate as to the actual biomass very often.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
Expect that the graphs are not estimates there post season measurements of the biomass
It’s not a preseason forecast like sockeye vs actual returns
Don’t think actual fact matter to you tho,
Last edited:
ship happens
Well-Known Member
What does estimations on sockeye have to do with actual biomass of herring in the SOG?
Answer is.. absolutely nothing.
I've seen both humpback & grey whales go after herring on the bottom after cornering them. One can see the herring ball looking more like a convex hump after being corralled onto the bottom by whales, and when the whales come up to the surface to breathe it initially looks like blood trailing from their mouths - but is instead reddish mud from the bottom that they grabbed while swallowing herring and is now leaking out through their balleen. Seals and sea lions also take their share as do hake. The "regen" of herring after reductions in commercial herring fishing TACs is being gobbled up by the increase in numbers of marine mammals and hake - at least on WCVI.
The graphs posted by both WMY and SH are accurate and show the historic biomass and is a compilation of many years (50-60) data on adult spawning herring. There has been a substantial reduction in commercial herring catch post 1960s.
I am really tired of hearing the lies from the MM lobby that:
1/ there never was any MM harvest before the increase in seal and whale harvest post colonization; and that the increases in their most favourite emotional/iconic critters are having no impact, and
2/ that whales poopin herring are somehow good for the environment (carbon credits) anyways so ignore the impacts to herring.
There has aways been a substantial MM harvest precolonization - especially in choke points like river mouths and WCVI. The MM lobby never wishes to admit this inconvenient fact.
AND...
Herring poop too. As biomass is transferred up the trophic levels only 10-15% is transferred up to the next level.
So in other words -if whales did not eat herring there would be 85-90% more carbon sequestration by herring.
The graphs posted by both WMY and SH are accurate and show the historic biomass and is a compilation of many years (50-60) data on adult spawning herring. There has been a substantial reduction in commercial herring catch post 1960s.
I am really tired of hearing the lies from the MM lobby that:
1/ there never was any MM harvest before the increase in seal and whale harvest post colonization; and that the increases in their most favourite emotional/iconic critters are having no impact, and
2/ that whales poopin herring are somehow good for the environment (carbon credits) anyways so ignore the impacts to herring.
There has aways been a substantial MM harvest precolonization - especially in choke points like river mouths and WCVI. The MM lobby never wishes to admit this inconvenient fact.
AND...
Herring poop too. As biomass is transferred up the trophic levels only 10-15% is transferred up to the next level.
So in other words -if whales did not eat herring there would be 85-90% more carbon sequestration by herring.
ship happens
Well-Known Member
What's interesting is ( and this goes for salmon as well ), you could have too much spawn in an area. Which ends up in a lower hatch count. It's all about balance. I'm sure AA could report on that science. People think that there should be herring spawn on every beach and there should be herring everywhere, well that's not what the ocean will allow. Ocean conditions will support what they can support.
G
gone fishin
Guest
I am not an expert, just a guy with over 50 years of fishing experience, but what I do know is the population of herring around the area I frequent has improved since the 50% harvest cut back of spawners last season.
It is hard to fight science, DFO and the guys who benefit from the Herring Roe Fishery.
My understanding is the Herring biomass estimates is done by sonar measurements. It is assumed they are seeing Herring only.
These measurements are done in the locations where spawning herring are expected to frequent and be harvested.
Last year many boats either did not find the herring where they were license to fish or the Herring were too small to harvest. I know a couple of guys who did not land ANY Herring suitable for the Roe market.
In my opinion which some will say is ignorant and false with no value whatsoever, we are moving in the right direction with our reduced harvest rate and the rest of the story will unfold In due course.
In the meantime, it can only help the survival of our Salmon.
ps jigging herrng in active pass was an annual event in the past.
It is hard to fight science, DFO and the guys who benefit from the Herring Roe Fishery.
My understanding is the Herring biomass estimates is done by sonar measurements. It is assumed they are seeing Herring only.
These measurements are done in the locations where spawning herring are expected to frequent and be harvested.
In my opinion which some will say is ignorant and false with no value whatsoever, we are moving in the right direction with our reduced harvest rate and the rest of the story will unfold In due course.
In the meantime, it can only help the survival of our Salmon.
ps jigging herrng in active pass was an annual event in the past.
Last edited by a moderator:
Some interesting conversations on here - thanks to all the contributors.
Hatch-out rates for herring spawn are exceedingly variable:
publications.gc.ca
That is why there is so much noise in any stock recruitment curves looking at herring larvae verses spawning stock estimates and hence the difficulty in coming up with a lower benchmark for # of spawners needed for herring. One of the key stressors for herring egg survival is oxygen.
As the outmost layers of herring eggs are added - less oxygen is available to the innermost and earlier layers. Eventually (something like 10+ layers) the innermost layers die and cause the whole dead inner & living outer egg mass to fall off the vegetation - as the outer layers are held onto the substrate by attachment to the inner layers that are attached to the vegetation. I am assuming that pretty much all the eggs then perish.
The Spawn-on-Kelp (AKA Roe-on-kelp) processors/buyers are WELL AWARE of this fact and there are manuals available to the SoK fishers/harvesters as to when to stop the spawn in their pens and release the captured herring after enuff layers have accumulated in order to have as best quality of a product as possible. Gaps and dead eggs reduce the quality of the product and hence the profit margin.
For those unfamiliar with this SoK fishery - ponds are prepped like now and kelp is added to the ponds - and the available nearby herring are periodically sampled for roe content. Once they are close to being ready to spawn - a catcher seine boat is chartered and drops a few tons of herring in the ponds. The kelp/eggs are monitored closely, and after the correct numbers of layers are added - the nets are dropped and the herring are scooted out of the pond and the kelp with spawn is harvested and brined and brought back to the processors.
The other variable that affects what spawn happens are the density-dependent mechanisms.
Herring are very similar to Eulachons in at least 2 important ways:
1/ They smell out where spawning is and come in and participate,
2/ their eggs are double-enveloped and upon fertilization - the outer layer breaks (like popping a balloon) and that contracted "balloon" outer layer is what allows herring eggs to attach to the substrate.
If there isn't a "critical mass" of spawning herring that can be detected - almost nobody comes into that specific cove to spawn. Conversely, in large biomass years - "outside" herring are pushed into more inshore areas/coves. So, comparing between years can be difficult - and we are only in the early art of developing an understanding of these density-dependent mechanisms.
All of these factors play into what numbers of herring spawners end up where/when.
In addition, it seems that high predation and increases of predators is now forcing herring to spawn deeper in an attempt to avoid predators than in previous years.
Always happy to share what little I know.
Hatch-out rates for herring spawn are exceedingly variable:
Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web
That is why there is so much noise in any stock recruitment curves looking at herring larvae verses spawning stock estimates and hence the difficulty in coming up with a lower benchmark for # of spawners needed for herring. One of the key stressors for herring egg survival is oxygen.
As the outmost layers of herring eggs are added - less oxygen is available to the innermost and earlier layers. Eventually (something like 10+ layers) the innermost layers die and cause the whole dead inner & living outer egg mass to fall off the vegetation - as the outer layers are held onto the substrate by attachment to the inner layers that are attached to the vegetation. I am assuming that pretty much all the eggs then perish.
The Spawn-on-Kelp (AKA Roe-on-kelp) processors/buyers are WELL AWARE of this fact and there are manuals available to the SoK fishers/harvesters as to when to stop the spawn in their pens and release the captured herring after enuff layers have accumulated in order to have as best quality of a product as possible. Gaps and dead eggs reduce the quality of the product and hence the profit margin.
For those unfamiliar with this SoK fishery - ponds are prepped like now and kelp is added to the ponds - and the available nearby herring are periodically sampled for roe content. Once they are close to being ready to spawn - a catcher seine boat is chartered and drops a few tons of herring in the ponds. The kelp/eggs are monitored closely, and after the correct numbers of layers are added - the nets are dropped and the herring are scooted out of the pond and the kelp with spawn is harvested and brined and brought back to the processors.
The other variable that affects what spawn happens are the density-dependent mechanisms.
Herring are very similar to Eulachons in at least 2 important ways:
1/ They smell out where spawning is and come in and participate,
2/ their eggs are double-enveloped and upon fertilization - the outer layer breaks (like popping a balloon) and that contracted "balloon" outer layer is what allows herring eggs to attach to the substrate.
If there isn't a "critical mass" of spawning herring that can be detected - almost nobody comes into that specific cove to spawn. Conversely, in large biomass years - "outside" herring are pushed into more inshore areas/coves. So, comparing between years can be difficult - and we are only in the early art of developing an understanding of these density-dependent mechanisms.
All of these factors play into what numbers of herring spawners end up where/when.
In addition, it seems that high predation and increases of predators is now forcing herring to spawn deeper in an attempt to avoid predators than in previous years.
Last edited:
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
last year they opened it up to late after the majority of herring were done spawning. Also the spawn was spread out across more areas.
There is also divers that dive down on spawning sites as part of the assessment of the spawning biomass.
There are a lot of issues out there but the herring harvest is not the shiny penny that some ENGOs make it out to be.
the growing unchecked predator population is going to be a massive problem down the line.
There is also divers that dive down on spawning sites as part of the assessment of the spawning biomass.
There are a lot of issues out there but the herring harvest is not the shiny penny that some ENGOs make it out to be.
the growing unchecked predator population is going to be a massive problem down the line.
ship happens
Well-Known Member
Along the same lines as WM is saying, lets say for example the ocean could support twice the amount of herring in the SOG, ( which would be astronomical and historical and a record breaker in history we know ) The marine mammal population would flourish beyond belief. These animals dont require oxygen from the water as they are mammals.. It would instead rule out other species in all of the salmon categories. Especially the ones who eat zooplankton such as sockeye, pink and chum, Because now they are competing with smaller fish ( herring ). The chinook population would also decrease due to high levels of marine mammals and the ocean itself would not be able to support the mass of all of those species and would end up in a natural state of rebuild.
Right now were already seeing a bit of an off balance with rising marine mammal populations, with excellent herring populations and really good chinook populations. Its all balance.
Right now were already seeing a bit of an off balance with rising marine mammal populations, with excellent herring populations and really good chinook populations. Its all balance.
Last edited:
G
gone fishin
Guest
Interesting theory
It seems to me what you are saying is too many herring could be bad for our wild salmon.
The extension of that is if we were to fish the herring into extinction , it would benefit our salmon populations cause all the predictors would die.
ship happens
Well-Known Member
Its not a theory its understanding the ocean and how the ocean works. The ocean will support only up to a certain amount of anything before it becomes unbalanced. We are discussing here one little tiny species of herring in the SOG
Noone is fishing the herring into extinction. It doesnt work that way. More herring doesnt mean more chinook. Its a balance of all species.
In this study, I developed a linear regression model for Pacific herring, which is widely applicable to coastal archaeologists across the Pacific Coast of North America. Through the application of these formulae to ancient Pacific herring vertebrae I reconstructed the ancient size of herring within Point Reyes National Seashore. Specifically, I examined 8,005 clupeid remains and identified 199 Pacific herring atlases and axes from four sites dating from cal AD 760 to ~1,800, which encompasses more than 1,000 years of indigenous fishing. The results of the linear regression models suggest that Coast Miwok fishers selected for and retained a specific size class of herring likely during the spawning season. The findings suggest Coast Miwok fishers may have used gill nets with a standardized net mesh size to harvest Pacific herring of a specific size throughout this time. These data contrast significantly from the CDFW data derived through the exclusive use of gill nets in the harvesting of Pacific herring, which removed the largest and oldest fishes from the ecosystem (California Department of Fish and Wildlife 2008; Spratt 1981, 1992). The data reported indicate the possibility of indigenous stewardship and management of the Point Reyes Pacific herring fishery for over 1,000 years. The structure of the archaeological Pacific herring fisheries closely resembles expectations from the ecological and fisheries ecology literature regarding resource stewardship and management through the limited take of older fish and juveniles which would allow the fish population to reproduce and mature. These data are contrary to expectations of fishing practices derived from evolutionary ecology, human behavioral ecology, and OFT models (Bettinger 1991, 2015; Broughton 1994a, 1997; Broughton et al. 2015; Cronk 1991; Winterhalder and Smith 2000). According to these frameworks, if Native people were acting optimally in their fishing practices, we could expect that people would be focusing on the highest net return gain for their efforts including the harvest of large-bodied fishes with the highest return rates. If Native American fishing practices were selecting the largest sized Pacific herring within the fishery, which would be correlated with the oldest fishes, we could expect to see a reduction in the size of fishes through time, consistent with other archaeological fisheries studies (Broughton 1997; Broughton et al. 2015). The results of this study correlate closely with expectations of sustainable fishing practices derived from the ecological and fisheries literature with no evidence for the harvest of large-sized Pacific herring or a reduction in the size of fishes through time (Pauly et al. 1998; Pauly and Palomares 2005; Pauly and Zeller 2016; Sadovy 2001; Wright and Trippel 2009). Based on these findings recommendations of minimum and maximum size of take derived from the ancient and historic Coast Miwok fishery could help maintain the Pacific herring population in perpetuity. Maybe catching only the largest and oldest is not the right way forward to maintain Pacific herring populations into perpetuity. (Profit vs Herring).
More herring is good for salmon so closing salmon will be even better for salmon.
www.raincoast.org
Fisheries Minister must stop new fisheries that will harm endangered Chinook salmon and killer whales | Raincoast
The fishery will increase the amount of noise and disturbance from angling boats fishing where endangered killer whales are trying to feed.
www.raincoast.org
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
More herring is good for salmon so closing salmon will be even better for salmon.
Fisheries Minister must stop new fisheries that will harm endangered Chinook salmon and killer whales | Raincoast
The fishery will increase the amount of noise and disturbance from angling boats fishing where endangered killer whales are trying to feed.
Sports fishing just another sin industry to them.
#wildsalmonforever
ship happens
Well-Known Member
I like this part the bestMore herring is good for salmon so closing salmon will be even better for salmon.
Fisheries Minister must stop new fisheries that will harm endangered Chinook salmon and killer whales | Raincoast
The fishery will increase the amount of noise and disturbance from angling boats fishing where endangered killer whales are trying to feed.
“To ensure Fraser Chinook numbers have a chance of recovering, all of these fish must reach their spawning grounds during this migration period,” said Misty MacDuffee, Raincoast Conservation Foundation Wild Salmon Program Director. “The proposed fishery is for the sole benefit of recreational fishers, not for the benefit of either Chinook salmon or Southern Resident killer whales.”
The reason they don't have their escapement is because of .. wait.. hold on.. you guessed it. Ohh wait it went for sale? Dang.
Yep rec fishers take all the fraser nooks
especially in late summer almost fall. What a mess.
Last edited:
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
I like this part the best
“To ensure Fraser Chinook numbers have a chance of recovering, all of these fish must reach their spawning grounds during this migration period,” said Misty MacDuffee, Raincoast Conservation Foundation Wild Salmon Program Director. “The proposed fishery is for the sole benefit of recreational fishers, not for the benefit of either Chinook salmon or Southern Resident killer whales.”
The reason they don't have their escapement is because of .. wait.. hold on.. you guessed it. Ohh wait it went for sale? Dang.
Yep rec fishers take all the fraser nooks
This is just an attempt to by NGO lobby too stop the MSF marked fishery. Fully expected and timed.
Reel Time
Well-Known Member
This keeps happening. We over fish the stock, it takes years to bounce back and we over fish again. This 10% reduction is OK.
We keep wasting herring and more than a few boats have been to blame for dumping excess catch. Lets see what happens this year.
We keep wasting herring and more than a few boats have been to blame for dumping excess catch. Lets see what happens this year.
Thousands of herring found dead off B.C. coast
Thousands of dead herring have been found scattered across the ocean floor in Deep Bay, B.C., 75 kilometres north of Nanaimo.
bc.ctvnews.ca
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
yeah they want to stop it before mass marking gets approved.
Similar threads
