Fishing & the internet

profisher
quote:Chris, what would be your interpretation of proper sport fishing?
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With proper sportfishing I mean abiding by the regs for daily and possession limits AND on top abiding by unwritten laws of ethic which means 1) releasing fish not intended for consumption unharmed, 2) not keeping more than you can use for personal consumption and 3)knowing your ecosystem and fish stock conditions and drawing logical conclusions about whether some of those fish should be fished or better not and/or kept - regardless if DFO allows you otherwise. I know point 3) is a far stretch for some sporties but I think the majority would follow this since most of us have non-biased interests in fishing - other than enjoyment.
 
Chris, #3 is what all should exercise! Too many people act as if they have to keep because the regs say it's OK. We have all heard the idiots who say the Hatchery fish have to be harvested because the government wants them out of there. WTF does that mean?????


Serengeti, I'll do my best to promote the fishing up your way LOL.....kidding of course.

HL:D
 
quote:Originally posted by SerengetiGuide

To recalculate the amount of sold fishing licenses due to me missing the decline in non residence sales...this year total number of sold fishing licenses went up by about 16,500 licenses...and salmon stamps went up by 25,000...thats 25,000 more people targeting the silver ones.

www.serengetifishingcharters.com

*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
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How does that total compare with the 332,693 licensed tidal water anglers in 2004?
 
It might surprise you? I all ready have it! How about from 1981 to date? [:I]

Participation in the Recreational Salmon Fishery
Although definitive participation numbers only became available with the introduction of a saltwater sport fishing license in 1981, there were some earlier efforts to collect these data. A 1979 study by Loftus and Masse pulled together information from a number of sources and concluded that in 1975 there were 364,000 active anglers fishing tidal waters in B.C. They projected that by 1981 this number would grow to 425,000.

This forecast proved to be overly optimistic. In 1981, the federal government implemented a new recreational fishing license for tidal waters, issuing 282,200 that first year, 228,000 to Canadian residents and 54,000 to visitors. It has to be understood, however, that in addition to introducing the new licensing system, DFO announced a number of conservation measures designed to reduce the sport harvest of chinook salmon. As pointed out by Peter Pearse in the final report of his 1982 Royal Commission on Pacific Fisheries Policy, “These and the ensuing heated debate among sport fishing organizations, created an unsettled climate throughout the year and adversely affected participation in the fishery, particularly the non-resident component”.

Loftus and Masse had projected that the total number of tidal water anglers would grow to 793,000 by 2005. Again, their optimism proved unwarranted. The numbers did grow after 1981, reaching 453,459 in 1993. They then declined to a low of 307,777 in 2000. There has been slow improvement since with 332,693 issued in 2004. The biggest single decline in participation took place in 1996 when an increase in license fees coincided with severe conservation measures aimed at protecting vulnerable chinook runs. Sales of annual resident licenses decreased by 43,000, or 12% and sales to non-residents fell by more than 50%. The following figures show the long term trends with respect to both resident and non-resident licences.

Note: I have the graph which shows both resident and non- resident from 1981 – 2005. If you want PM me and I will send to you!

The Average Angler
The 2000 Survey of Recreational Fishing in Canada provides an interesting profile of what it terms “active tidal waters anglers”. Amongst B.C. residents, 73% were men with an average age of 41. Female anglers were younger, with an average age of 31. Non-resident anglers were older and had a lower proportion of women.

According to the survey, tidal anglers in B.C. waters spent 63% of their time fishing for salmon. They hooked 1.4 million, keeping 484,655. They fished from a boat 83% of the time. 9% employed a guide and 7% entered a fishing derby.

In the 2000 survey, 38% of tidal anglers reported that the number of days they fished for salmon had decreased since 1995 and 50% said their success rate had fallen. Thirty-one percent said that due to the decline in salmon stocks they had chosen to target another species.

Of direct significance with respect to conservation is the fact that 42% of tidal anglers were not aware of the head recovery program for adipose clipped fish. Since the recovery of coded wire tags is essential to the determination of stock specific harvest rates, and since the recovery rate for tags has declined for a number of reasons, a need for more angler education is obvious.
 
So with all that info, knowing that 20 - 15 years ago there were more fishermen active, catch limits were higher, reported success rates have fallen since - how can someone conclude that through better technology and equipment that the total impact by sportfishermen has increased? Don't buy that logic, sorry. In fact we are catching less despite</u> the larger boats and sophisticated equipment. So internet and info sharing has not lead to the decline of salmon stocks.
 
There is no reliable way to tell what the recreational catch was then or is now. It is all based on sample interviews, flyovers and averaging. Look at what happened to the rec halibut numbers when they coughed up a bit of money to monitor northern areas 2 summers ago. They found out we were taking way more than thought. I truly think that if accurate numbers were obtained the number of fish caught yearly would surprise many. I'm not suggesting we are anywhere near what was caught previously by the commercial fleet. Just more than we think. Glad to see a strong debate and some interest in the topic!
The reason I brought up this topic (in part) was to lead into the increased pressure by lodges, guides and the more savy average anglers in terminal areas. How many more boats with competent anglers, guides and lodges can places like Nootka take and sustain the present runs? The hatcheries production is down from the past and I don't see it being increased unless private funding is put in place long term. What hope do the local Nootka streams have of rebuilding with the ever increasing pressure on those stocks? Does anyone else believe that at some point soon, someone has to look at restricting the number of lodges/guides in certain terminal areas? I've advocated a saltwater guide & lodge license for years. To get into the business you buy a license for areas that are available or buy a guide/lodge out from an area where new licenses are not longer available.
 
quote:Originally posted by chris73

So with all that info, knowing that 20 - 15 years ago there were more fishermen active, catch limits were higher, reported success rates have fallen since - how can someone conclude that through better technology and equipment that the total impact by sportfishermen has increased? Don't buy that logic, sorry. In fact we are catching less despite</u> the larger boats and sophisticated equipment. So internet and info sharing has not lead to the decline of salmon stocks.
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So after deleting a couple of replies, I guess the only thing I need to say is, Thank You! You are correct! :)
 
I think our coast could take a lot more recreational fishing pressure if stock declining factors that have little or no economic contribution to the particular area and to this province in general are being addressed. Maybe until such time your suggestion of an additional licence is a valid option, profisher. However, I truly think we don't need more bureaucracy...what we need is a truly committed DFO to provide fair access to the resource with two things in mind: First and foremost the recovery and protection of the salmon stocks; Secondly the best economical use of excess stocks - may it come from overabundant wild stocks or hatchery produced - while considering real</u> treaty rights for local FN - which is for food and ceremonial purposes only. Under such rigorous regulation I bet you could open dozens more lodges along the coast without compromising the stocks.
 
Chris...there is a lot more BC ocean that can take more guide/lodge pressure...no doubt. My concern is for specific terminal areas where fish and boats stack up at the same time each year. Are terminal runs going to be able to sustain uncontrolled growth of commercial operations..I don't think so. As a guide I would like to see a license for 3 main reasons, control to prevent over fishing in these popular terminal areas, (or any area) gives your guiding business true value for resale and it would help control those who would not be licensed guides. I think a license will come out of necessity down the road anyway..it will be in response to the issues I mention...why wait until the problem bites us in the butt? I know that is how things always work...but change can be good. Prevent the problem instead of responding to one!
 
Just read your previous post Chris about 20 years ago and the larger catch then by more licensed anglers. First go back to the 60's..few sport boats and lots of wild fish still swimming around. Then problems in the 70's, fewer fish (commercials taking to many) Sep has to come to the rescue and is in full production by the early 90's, lots of hatchery fish around...more people get back into rec fishing..license sales increase. Then El Nino's strike, Sep is cut back, commercial fisheries collapse, sport limits are cut, area and time restrictions are put in place, barbless hooks etc etc. License sales drop again, wonder why? Now there are fewer fish out there in total than before...and don't kid yourself there are fewer or the commercial guys would be fishing. It doesn't look like the government is interested in going down the SEP investment route to help out this time. So we have to work with what we have now and find ways to TAKE LESS and in my case as a guide MAKE MORE! Today the number of competent anglers after the fewer fish available is having an effect. I don't think it is endangering runs at this point, but it is impeding the recovery process of certain runs.
 
I would say yes to additional pressure, but that may not translate into actual number of fish taken. Personally, I don't catch fish in a lot of places that I fish - even though I read the board fairly regularly. But I still go fishing, not catching.

This debate has been hashed over on the freshwater boards, and the general concensus is that for the small lakes and streams, keep your mouth shut. You can boast and show the pictures without inviting an onslaught of anglers who, in searching out the ideal experience, would destroy the opportunity for themselves and everybody else. Something similar applies here too I think.

For a large, well-known area like Sooke or Port Alberni, I doubt that it matters what is said.

Techniques, ethics, sportsmanship, safety, etc. are all communicated on the internet and through boards like this. Hopefully the readers pick up some of these pointers and learn how to do a live release, what to release, etc.

Unfortunately I think the name of the game has changed from fishing to catching. Instant gratification and all that. 20 plus foot boats, multiple electric downriggers, stacking 6 or more rods out the back, gps, depth sounders, are all probably the norm now. I think that has had more impact on fish numbers as your casual sportsfishing boat now has more gear on it than the old gulf salmon trollers used to carry.

The guides and lodges also feed the catching frenzy - pictures of a happy group or family limited out on salmon, halibut, ling cod, red snapper, and anything else that is open - all on the same day! Give them a 2 day posession limit (unless they airfreighted some out so they can keep catching) and I wonder what they are going to do with all that fish. But it makes a great picture. (Not knocking the guides or lodges, they are legally selling a catching experience, but I agree with Profisher they should be treated as a commercial fishing industry.)

Another note, I compared last years (2008) Sooke report thread to this years (2009). 2008 had 703 posts with 73,546 views. 2009 has, to date, 1063 posts with 99,070 views. CErtainly the interest is there and growing.

All that said, I have learned a lot - on a theoretical level - since I came aboard, and appreciate the comments, advice and suggestions that have been made on a diverse number of topics. Am glad the internet is here.
 
quote:Originally posted by profisher

Just read your previous post Chris about 20 years ago and the larger catch then by more licensed anglers. First go back to the 60's..few sport boats and lots of wild fish still swimming around. Then problems in the 70's, fewer fish (commercials taking to many) Sep has to come to the rescue and is in full production by the early 90's, lots of hatchery fish around...more people get back into rec fishing..license sales increase. Then El Nino's strike, Sep is cut back, commercial fisheries collapse, sport limits are cut, area and time restrictions are put in place, barbless hooks etc etc. License sales drop again, wonder why? Now there are fewer fish out there in total than before...and don't kid yourself there are fewer or the commercial guys would be fishing. It doesn't look like the government is interested in going down the SEP investment route to help out this time. So we have to work with what we have now and find ways to TAKE LESS and in my case as a guide MAKE MORE! Today the number of competent anglers after the fewer fish available is having an effect. I don't think it is endangering runs at this point, but it is impeding the recovery process of certain runs.
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I have all ready told you, I do not want to throw "darts" or "daggers", but what are you talking about?
I have to ask, are you getting a check from a government agency?

The commercial fleet was "bought out"! There was NOT a collapse, they were "bought, paid for, and shut down" The "El Nino's strike"… had nothing to do with any restrictions or cutbacks! "Barbless hooks", nothing to do with the number of Canadian fish. I think you can blame the good old U.S.A for that one? "Now there are fewer fish out there in total than before"? I would like to see you reference on that? According to all the data I have seen, 2009 saw more salmon across the board and 2010 is supposed to be better? Have we had "bad" years, yep! But, the sustainability over the years has been fairly consistent. "Today the number of competent anglers after the fewer fish available is having an effect." I would like to see a reference on that, also? According to everything I am reading, that is not true? Why do you think DFO put the 77cm and surf line rule into effect? In case you do not know, it is to protect your Canadian fish and help the recovery process of certain runs! Let's face it, Canada doesn't really care how many salmon gets back to the U.S, but they do care about how much the U.S. is willing to pay to get them back. That's a fact… and I am okay with that!

I am assuming the above comments are your opinions, and not based on fact? If it is fact, I certainly would love to see your references, as your comments do not parallel with CA or US studies!

Now, if you want to go back to the 60's… let's go back to the 1800's! Of course, I guess 1860 would be in the 60's. If you want to go back that far, I suggest you start doing some reading. You can start with the history of the "Hudson Bay Company"; then go to the "History of the Pacific Salmon", after that, " the demise of the pacific salmon"; then find out, " when the Hudson Bay company put a bounty on the beaver and the effects that had on the salmon? Look up why the Hudson Bay Company moved its headquarters from the Columbia River to Vancouver Island? If you want a little more current information? Try, "The mistakes we made with our hatcheries" here in Washington, after that try the history of the B.C. Commercial Salmon Fleet. When you get done with all that, go to the U.S.– Canada Salmon treaty, "the original one", then all the modifications and the reasons for the modifications! Then you can read the current one, which after that will make sense! After all the above, go to the endangered species list! Find out how many salmon are on it! Once you read all the above, then go to DFO's website and start reading, there is a lot of information and that will take quite awhile!. After DFO, go Washington's website and follow all the links! After you get this far, go to NOAA's website and read the entire frick'n thing, it is a LOT bigger! After all the above, when you get done, if you have any questions… fill free to ask, as you guessed it, I really have read all the above.
 
Charlie:
Please summarize the salient points from the documents you cite.
Thanks
 
Charlie, Chris and a couple others... Great commentary.

Good thread.

PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT ask for more regulation!

Regulations (sorry, maybe not, if I offend any in this) are writen by committees of lawyers, government employees, professors and consultants... City people whose recreation is the 'Y', Stanley Park perimeter jog, skating on the Rideau or the Winnipeg Ballet. They gather "statistical" evidence and massage it to reflect the point of view they want to portray. Most of those have the idea that your outdoor recreation should be limited to a walk on Dallas Road, or a run around Elk Lake! Camping?.. Thank God for sat-dish internet in the RV.

Statistics will say whatever you want them to say. They rely on information published by NGO's... Non-Governmetal Organizations, which almost invariably are supported by people who may reflect (most often) points of view you probably would find repugnent.

PETA, Greenpeace and Sierra Wildeness are examples of NGO's who advise, and are called upon to advise governments in outdoor resource use. These people want you far away from the wilds of any place.

Sports-Professionals and true outdoor enthusiasts are generally the most committed outdoor conservationists. They understand the outdoors, conservation and how to husband the varied creatures abounding in their favorite places better than most scientists. Certainly more than those who reseach statistics and draw conclusions from those. The scientists fail to account for the myriad connected factors which make up any given statistic, which the outdoors person knows by experience and feel, until the scientists realize, puzzeled, their theory was flawed.

It falls upon those who are committed to continued outdoor activities, in a free manner, to police ourselves and report those who act irresponsibly, immorally or illegally.

Too many are afraid of 'rocking the boat' or getting clubbed. Well safety first, but there are cell phones, many with cameras.

It is then our task to ensure our reports to authorities are followed up. If we take the time to ensure they know we will follow up... They will more-often follow-up. If the media are told, "The Salmon Anglers' Club" have reported violations which the authorities failed to follow-up, the authorities will be damned certain to follow up the next time. And, "The Salmon Anglers' Club" becomes an authority, a resource, a protector of the environment, and will be sought-out for input during the next meeting of resource discussions.

It means remaining committed to our sport and the survival of our quarry. It's more than just grabbing a rod for a quick fish.

In the past five years, I have been with guides who have taken me to places where there were no other boats for the entire day, well once there were two trawlers going by. They were dilligent about limits and legal fish. They asked first, are you going for meat or sport? Are you taking fish home?, How Many?, and How are you getting it home? They worked hard.

I've been with two guides in the past 10 years who never checked licenses, "get in the boat, let's go", bonked every legal fish caught without question, and flushed their oily bilge in the remote bay we were in. (I reported him, result unknown) I've been with herd-guides (unpleasant, I'm with Charley on that).

I think Ironoggin said on another thread, there's a ton of shore anglers who take a ton (fairshare) of fish.

Man, I fish the shore 3-4 times a week from Otter to Sidney, 12 months a year. except for the breakwater, I see maybe one other angler in a month. I took home 1 greenling this year and I caught 450+ fish. I could have taken a rock cod per day during the season, but never kept one. The only salmon I caught (first ever from salt-shores) was cut off by a boat's downrigger cable during his last dash (I got a look before the dash, Chinook).

In all that time, I've never seen a shore angler catch a salmon, not one. I've never seen another angler catch a legal ling cod from shore. OK, there's the pier in Campbell River, and the new pink pen fish in Cow Bay. I hear stories about, but in over 150 days this year I've never seen anyone take salmon from shore. And the stories are always about one guy and one fish. (well there's a story I was told about the raconteur's buddy who landed 25 salmon and couldn't keep them off his line a few days ago at this spot throwing buzzbombs. But, I was there at that time and the buddy wasn't. His XXXX is probably 12" and unstoppable too.)

I pick up other people's garbage... fishing line, lure packs, and on the breakwater, there's not a big enough bag to carry it all.

These things are all connected to this thread...

It is up to the users to police ourselves. We cannot wish for others to take charge. If we holler at offenders for malfeasance... This time they might flip us off, but next time, they might not do it. (Their parents probably gave them 'time-outs' in their rooms to play video games, so it's really just their being ignorant about consequences.)

We must be careful what we wish for... For we may just get it.

If we demand more laws, more regulation, more oversight, we may find we have no sport to play, and no place to play it.

Cheers!
 
Charlie..I'm not posting to argue with you...you have your thoughts and me mine...thats ok..don't take my posts personally...they aren't directed at you! I'm giving everyone my personal feelings based on my personal experiences....all is meant to get a debate going...which it has...it doesn't bother me which side of the fence one sits, none of us are in any position to make any changes any way. By the way I wish I had a government check with a big fat pension...I could quit guiding!!! lol By the way were you throwing a dagger there with that comment Charlie? :D
 
Ok I take it back have to argue one point...yes the commercial fleet was bought out...but I have to ask why did it get bought out? Were they willing to get bought out? Of coarse they wanted out, to many boats and too few fish left to make it profitable. That to me is collapse. Now Charlie..there are no daggers here being thrown...just stating my view.
 
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