Boating Instructors GREAT IDEA

[Rayc]

good thing youre not in charge of things, then.
"certifications" dont make you competent. "training" doesnt make you competent.
getting out and doing different things for 10,000 hrs makes you competent. but you cant get those 10,000 hrs if you arent allowed to go and do things and make mistakes doing them in the first place.
all you should get tested for is how not to go out and kill others or yourself. everything else is learnt only by time and experience.

Going out and putting in 10000 hours does not make you competent. I have electricians come to me and say they put in there 6000 hours and challenged the TQ exam and passed so they are qualified , as far as I am concerned they are not qualified electricians. Seen to many of them that know nothing. Yes experience counts for a lot but so does in class training. I did not grow up with boats and fishing, I took some courses and I hired an instructor to give me the practical experience I needed to help me learn to handle a boat. Am I an expert NO but nor is anyone when they start out. I would rather have some theory and practical training to be safe on the water.

 

[Foxsea]

Is this not his exact point?

I'm generally a fan of training. I actually used to evaluate training, professionally. My experience is that any certification that's readily available is worthless.

If there's a government mandated short course in something...you might as well just ask someone to summarize the key points in three sentences, because it's not going to have been an information-dense environment, and those three points are all anyone is going to remember in six months anyway.

Getting serious instruction on stuff is totally valuable, but a lot of people conflate the value of serious instruction with the system of government certification. They're related, I guess.


But humans are related to cuttlefish, too.

Yeah, I get what you are saying but two examples: Food Safe vs. OFA 2 or 3. Food Safe might help minimize salmonella outbreaks, remind workers not to leave the turkey out overnight and that it's good to wash your hands.
OFA 2 and 3 certifed attendants could very well save my life or a co-workers life. Both government certifications, so let's not trivialize all of it.

 

[Foxsea]

Going out and putting in 10000 hours does not make you competent. I have electricians come to me and say they put in there 6000 hours and challenged the TQ exam and passed so they are qualified , as far as I am concerned they are not qualified electricians. Seen to many of them that know nothing. Yes experience counts for a lot but so does in class training. I did not grow up with boats and fishing, I took some courses and I hired an instructor to give me the practical experience I needed to help me learn to handle a boat. Am I an expert NO but nor is anyone when they start out. I would rather have some theory and practical training to be safe on the water.

TQ's should be eliminated. Many job postings now require a Certificate of Apprenticeship and a Red Seal.

 

[cracked_ribs]

Yeah, I get what you are saying but two examples: Food Safe vs. OFA 2 or 3. Food Safe might help minimize salmonella outbreaks, remind workers not to leave the turkey out overnight and that it's good to wash your hands.
OFA 2 and 3 certifed attendants could very well save my life or a co-workers life. Both government certifications, so let's not trivialize all of it.

In my experience, six months after doing either of those courses, the overwhelming majority of people mandated to take them only remember anything if they are required to use some specific aspect of it on an ongoing basis - say a person who has to check freezer temperatures at work will remember that component, but nothing about meat cooking temperatures - or if they're specifically interested in the subject matter and review it on their own, which is super rare.

In either case the mandated training doesn't do much; the freezer guy would have just been told the right temperatures at work, and the first aid person would have already have had the interest.

In fact with mandated first aid training you see it really starkly: if it's necessary, it's a high stress situation and people who weren't particularly focused on it to begin with really blank right out. The expression used in the industry is "nobody rises to the occasion; everybody defaults to their highest level of mastery."

So you put people without a specific interest through first aid, you get nobody with anything that could be called mastery, and unless they come across someone having a heart attack right outside the SJA building as they leave after the test... efficacy of the training is super low.

 

[beemer]

There is no question that an actual on the water course would be beneficial. I have suffered through decades of “required” courses taught by academics who had little knowledge of the dynamics that happen in modern high speed boat handling.
Unfortunately few new boaters are willing to part with the 100 to 150 an hour fee that is required to give a one on one tutorial that would turn them into basic boat handlers.

 

[Rayc]

TQ's should be eliminated. Many job postings now require a Certificate of Apprenticeship and a Red Seal.

Yes they should be eliminated

 

[Foxsea]

In my experience, six months after doing either of those courses, the overwhelming majority of people mandated to take them only remember anything if they are required to use some specific aspect of it on an ongoing basis - say a person who has to check freezer temperatures at work will remember that component, but nothing about meat cooking temperatures - or if they're specifically interested in the subject matter and review it on their own, which is super rare.

In either case the mandated training doesn't do much; the freezer guy would have just been told the right temperatures at work, and the first aid person would have already have had the interest.

In fact with mandated first aid training you see it really starkly: if it's necessary, it's a high stress situation and people who weren't particularly focused on it to begin with really blank right out. The expression used in the industry is "nobody rises to the occasion; everybody defaults to their highest level of mastery."

So you put people without a specific interest through first aid, you get nobody with anything that could be called mastery, and unless they come across someone having a heart attack right outside the SJA building as they leave after the test... efficacy of the training is super low.

Because of my work, I have been through OFA 2 and also 3 at least a dozen times. I have indeed seen students freeze up on the practical exam and even leave, crying in frustration. That does happen.

My good fortune is that my life was saved once and I stayed out of a wheelchair on another occasion because of expert OFA attendants. As an attendant, I have personally helped several workers by providing treatment until ambulances arrived. Sadly, I have also been there for a young man who did not survive a fall. In every instance, the training not only enabled me to help my co-workers effectively but also was instrumental to my personal welfare. My experiences are quite different from your notions. There is nothing like a life and death emergency to focus a mind.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Back when I took my power squadron course it was just after they had made it a requirement to get the boating licence.

it was full of boomers bellyaching about how they could drive there commanders around but the second they got into there dinghy to power to shore they needed a licence.

i couldent image the amount of complaint that would happen if what you guys want was put into law as a requirement.

 

[Foxsea]

Back when I took my power squadron course it was just after they had made it a requirement to get the boating licence.

it was full of boomers bellyaching about how they could drive there commanders around but the second they got into there dinghy to power to shore they needed a licence.

i couldent image the amount of complaint that would happen if what you guys want was put into law as a requirement.

let 'em cry, whine and b*tch. The rest of us will carry on boating happily, as we usually do.

 

[cracked_ribs]

Because of my work, I have been through OFA 2 and also 3 at least a dozen times. I have indeed seen students freeze up on the practical exam and even leave, crying in frustration. That does happen.

My good fortune is that my life was saved once and I stayed out of a wheelchair on another occasion because of expert OFA attendants. As an attendant, I have personally helped several workers by providing treatment until ambulances arrived. Sadly, I have also been there for a young man who did not survive a fall. In every instance, the training not only enabled me to help my co-workers effectively but also was instrumental to my personal welfare. My experiences are quite different from your notions. There is nothing like a life and death emergency to focus a mind.

Your experiences are explained perfectly my "notions" (which are informed by extensive training in high stress environments which is exactly how I ended up professionally evaluating training in my field).

You take people with a specific interest and put them through training a lot over a long time, you get good results. Those people have achieved mastery, default to their highest level of it, and are fine. You take OFA 3 repeatedly, you'll get far.

You mandate a short course, you get no mastery, and very little information retention. That's the reality. The only people who can tell you more than a couple of half-remembered tidbits are the total keeners, and they didn't need the course to be mandated because they want to be there

 

[Brett83]

About 35 years ago my parents became more serious about boating. They spent most of a winter going through a Canadian Power Squadron program.
Not many years later I finally got my own first real boat. I am one of those who believe in best practices, so knew that even though I'd been boating almost my entire life, getting some certification was a good idea - especially since my then young family would be counting on my expertise.
The idea of spending months in a classroom had zero appeal. Fortunately a young man working for me suggested that his parent's business, Nanaimo Yachts and Charters, had a program I might like.
The upshot was I spent 2 entire days on MY BOAT with an amazing teacher, Lew Forth. Afterwards I wrote an exam and became certified as an operator, above and beyond the government's minimum requirements.

Lew and I met at Brechin Boat launch and I was annoyed that he was there early, because I hadn't yet launched my boat. Well, it turns out that he always tried to meet clients at the ramp so they could work out the best way to launch the client's rig! Such a great idea!
In a later conversation Lew stated that the 3 most challenging (and dangerous) situations all small boaters face are: launching/trailering, docking, and anchoring. Now 25 years and over 5000 hours later I cannot disagree with him.

If I were in charge of things, I would make it mandatory that people would have training and certification in those 3 areas prior to being permitted to operate a boat.

I'm sure that many of the googans out there simply don't know there is a better, safer, easier way.

I must add that I still manage to be a googan several times per year, but at least I recognize it afterwards , and promise to never do it again - fat chance!

Bad idea. 50% of my online entertainment is boat ramp fails and boating bloopers. Great viewing.

 

[searun]

I support the notion that quality education, coupled with demonstrating practical seamanship skills would be optimal, however experience tells me that getting there would be impossibly difficult given the weak knee politics that would play out in the process. Then there is the problem of over-coming the Darwin factor. No matter how many years experience, there are just some folks who end up repeating grade 1, 12 times before getting rubber stamped to graduate. There's always someone in line for the next Darwin Award no matter how "educated or experienced" they might be.

 

[Foxsea]

I support the notion that quality education, coupled with demonstrating practical seamanship skills would be optimal, however experience tells me that getting there would be impossibly difficult given the weak knee politics that would play out in the process. Then there is the problem of over-coming the Darwin factor. No matter how many years experience, there are just some folks who end up repeating grade 1, 12 times before getting rubber stamped to graduate. There's always someone in line for the next Darwin Award no matter how "educated or experienced" they might be.

There is a profound difference between educated and "schooled." There are many with sub-optimal intelligence levels. By definition, half the population has below median (average) intelligence. It's not race, color or religion alone that determines the greatest inequities but also intellectual differences, in spite of the equality myth. The intellectually challenged segment of our population were born that way, they cannot help it and we cannot fix it. All the schooling we can provide will not change that reality. However, we do have to live and work with them and also navigate the popular delusion of equality.

True education is generally sought out and available to the segment who are capable, motivated and that can benefit most from it. Those folks become productive, do well and contribute to our society. But almost every adult with a pulse can vote in our democracy. Hence we experience our current decay in rational thought processes, antagonism toward science and fact, emotionally driven, "weak-knee politics", tribalism and the continuing erosion of our once-cohesive social fabric.

 

[scott craven]

Similar to aircraft piloting, it's the actual hours spent on the water experiencing
different situations that can make a good boater.
Classroom time is good for teaching basics but understanding tides, currents, wind, and waves
that challenge us every time out is what you really learn from.

 

[Foxsea]

Similar to aircraft piloting, it's the actual hours spent on the water experiencing
different situations that can make a good boater.
Classroom time is good for teaching basics but understanding tides, currents, wind, and waves
that challenge us every time out is what you really learn from.

Yes, time in the air or on the water, under a variety of different conditions, is certainly an asset. It's not an either/or situation, though. Time and training are both critical to competency in boating and flying. However, the bar is much higher to pilot a plane. Just to get your foot in the door you must be at least 14, healthy, have good vision and be proficient in English. You must then be proven competent to fly solo, even a small, one engine, private, fixed wing aircraft, during the day, in good weather, with good visibility. To get there you need:

• Student Pilot Permit Age 14 (for solo flight), PPL Application Age 17
• Valid Category 1 or 3 Medical Certificate (through CAME)
• 45 hours of Ground School
• Successfully complete (60%) Transport Canada Private Pilot Written Exam
• 25 Hrs Dual Flight Training - Minimum
• 20 Hrs Solo Flight Training - Minimum
• Successfully complete Private Pilot Flight Test
• Instrument & Navigation Training
• Cost: $12,000.00

This is the ground floor. Want to fly in poor visibility or at night? More training and testing. Want to fly twin engine? More training and testing. Want to fly a helicopter? And then, if you want to go commercial ...

So, tested and proven boating qualifications are pretty much non-existent compared to piloting even the smallest, most basic aircraft, under good conditions. Boating? No way similar to aircraft requirements but it would be better if they were.

 

[sly_karma]

Combination of formal education and experience is the best practice. Yes there will be outliers and exceptions, but the blend of both is always the winner for any training system.

 

[searun]

All good thoughts on the topic, but I still stand by my concern that implementation will become the greatest single barrier to success...and of course that despite the best efforts its still not a panacea ....there will always be dummies (measured by attitude not IQ) out there lining up for that Darwin award. I've seen a lot of very smart people let their attitudes toward the sea or the "mission" get in the way of safety. Its a phenomenon called "Group Think" that often leads people to make very poor decisions influenced by the pressure to perform or complete the mission. To me that is one of the hidden dangers influencing a lot of boating mishaps.

What Caused the Challenger Disaster? | HISTORY

Seven lives were lost as communications failed in the face of public pressure to proceed with the launch despite dangerously cold conditions.

www.history.com

 

[wildmanyeah]

All good thoughts on the topic, but I still stand by my concern that implementation will become the greatest single barrier to success...and of course that despite the best efforts its still not a panacea ....there will always be dummies (measured by attitude not IQ) out there lining up for that Darwin award. I've seen a lot of very smart people let their attitudes toward the sea or the "mission" get in the way of safety. Its a phenomenon called "Group Think" that often leads people to make very poor decisions influenced by the pressure to perform or complete the mission. To me that is one of the hidden dangers influencing a lot of boating mishaps.

What Caused the Challenger Disaster? | HISTORY

Seven lives were lost as communications failed in the face of public pressure to proceed with the launch despite dangerously cold conditions.

www.history.com

you see the same people wanting there to be mandatory in person and test requirements to get a fishing license.

it’s not about safety, or being able to identify a salmon or understanding the rules.

they simply just want less people out there

 

[Foxsea]

All good thoughts on the topic, but I still stand by my concern that implementation will become the greatest single barrier to success...and of course that despite the best efforts its still not a panacea ....there will always be dummies (measured by attitude not IQ) out there lining up for that Darwin award. I've seen a lot of very smart people let their attitudes toward the sea or the "mission" get in the way of safety. Its a phenomenon called "Group Think" that often leads people to make very poor decisions influenced by the pressure to perform or complete the mission. To me that is one of the hidden dangers influencing a lot of boating mishaps.

What Caused the Challenger Disaster? | HISTORY

Seven lives were lost as communications failed in the face of public pressure to proceed with the launch despite dangerously cold conditions.

www.history.com

In fact, supported by accident statistics year after year, among the top causes of boating injuries and deaths are:
Operator inexperience, failure to maintain a proper look-out and impairment. Again, with operator inexperience, "you don't know what you don't know" - until after the accident.

 

[Baxter]

I thought about looking into some sort of "on my own boat training" when I first got my boat last year, but I never really took it very far. Today I feel like in the past year I have learned a LOT, much of which was from this very forum, as well as some relevant facebook groups I'm on, and from some friends. Nothing official though, aside from the basic course to get my PCOC.

If a hands on boating course was mandatory, that would be a great idea. Most (including myself) would probably complain about having to do it, BUT at least anyone out on the water would have done it - at least a bit safer for everyone. (I am always surprised when I am out fishing or whatever, how few people even know who has the right of way! This is basic important knowledge!

Luckily for me, my mistakes have been minor, and I have learned from them. For anyone new, here are my newb screwups I had when I was first learning, so hopefully you don't make the same ones :

- Forgetting to put the plug in when launching (twice the boat was still on the trailer when I noticed it, so just pulled out, drained, and stuck the plug in. Once I didn't notice till I parked the trailer and walked down and saw the bilge just blasting water out the side! Was summer, and boat was beached at Kitty, so just walked around, got wet, put in the plug and waited for the bilge to finish doing its thing. I put the plug in before I leave home now!
- Had a couple times where I pulled the boat out and forgot to tilt the motors up. While it was VERY close, got lucky and never dragged the leg.
- Similarly have pulled out of the driveway a couple times forgetting to tilt the tongue jack up. Could feel the pain from my tongue wheel!
- I was waiting for friends at the Comox Marina, there was nobody at the dock so I was practicing moving sideways (a skill I have yet to master, but am getting better at). I accidently gave a bit too much juice in FW with my motor turned the wrong way and slammed in the dock. Luckily, all that happened was a small scratch on the hull, but nothing bad at all. (I have never practiced this move with other boats around - except for when I need to)
- And the potentially worst, Almost getting beached on mud in the middle of Comox Harbour! (ALMOST). Was going to go up the Puntledge river. Passed the one green marker to my left, but didn't turn enough to line up with the following set of markers, and veered off course on plane. This could have ended VERY badly, but I managed (JUST in time, to slow down - at that time my sounder came back online and I saw the depth reading drop from 9' down to 2' in a matter of a second, looked over and the ground was WAY too close. Cut the motor just as my prop grazed the mud. (sanded the paint off the outer edge of the prop, but no dings/knicks). VERY fortunate that we didn't get stuck or do any real damage. It was just before a VERY low tide, would have been stuck out there for hours. I luckily had just enough water to be able to trim up, and putt back into the channel. Lost a few years of life in my heart after that one!

These are all mistakes I don't make any more, mostly rookie moves that for the most part have not been repeated. Life lessons for sure, but mostly are due to lack of experience or being forgetful. In all cases I basically knew what I was doing, but managed to screwup. Something only life can really teach you. Most of these errors are things you don't forget - screw up once and you will never do it again! It has been a long time since I have made a stupid mistake, hopefully they are all behind me