Many people release the big halis?

[Saxe Point]

Studies, court rulings, statutory rights, the hallmark of a guy works behind a desk rather than out in the field. Soon you will be showing me bar and pie graphs to try to convince me that others need the fish more than the rest.lol I already know that on paper sportfishermen are last on the pecking order. That’s old. I personally feel that the sportfishing taxpayer that works in the sportfishing industry should be of equal importance to the rest! Yes, morally, ethically being this day and age I feel sportfishermen should have an equal claim to the limited resource. Most sportfishermen would probably agree with me that our needs are as important as anybody else’s. This is about our hunting and gathering heritage as Canadians. How many generations back does a sportfishermans lineage have to go to place them higher up the pole? What fee could he pay or how do we get gifted a fair share of the resources? Saxe, why aren’t you supporting the rest of us here??? I thought you were a sportsfisherman too.
You claim that steelhead fishermen come back year after year and that there is more to fishing than harvesting. With all your ability to dig up formal info why don’t you dig the stats and compare how many steelhead stamps get sold on v.i. as apposed to saltwater and freshwater salmon stamps every year. They will show that harvesting is way more popular than c&r. If you feel that molesting fish to just release anyway is more of what sportfishing is about than that is your opinion and you are a minority. Most of the general public believes in harvesting. I hope this address your points correctly. The stats won’t lie.
I by no means think that the First Nations should not be entitled to all the fishing rights that they have. Catching, processing for subsistence and bartering is part of their heritage and it is great that may still partake in it. My personal lifes experiences have proved that many of the First Nations people that really “NEED” the fish for subsistence never see a single piece of their local bands allotment while others are enjoying a prosperous commercial fishery.
Saxe, I’m not trying to attack you but I do definitely disagree with you. What you do for work is of importance to me so I can understand where you are coming from with your points. You are on a sportfishing forum trying to convince sportfishermen that they don’t really need fish like the others. What do you expect, support? Anybody can hide behind some internet alias and argue their points but, if you reveal your occupation and reason for involvement in this discussion your points may have a hell of a lot more clout with me. Let’s start with me. Hi my name is Ken. I was born and raised in the Port Alberni area. I have been employed as a sport or commercial fishermen for the last 27 years. Fishing and hunting are also my main hobbies. See that’s not so bad!
P.S. Saxe, I don’t mean to drive you nuts

I don't think we are going to be able to agree, and you haven't persuaded me one bit. You keep mixing things up.

My original point was a pretty simple one, and I just don't understand why it's so controversial. There are not many subsistence fishermen. Some of them may be aboriginal, and have aboriginal fishing rights, which are legal entitlements and not what I was talking about. Some of them may not be aboriginal fishermen. The only point was that if someone is so poor that they rely on the fish to eat because they have no other option to survive, that person "needs" a fish a lot more than a sports fishermen "needs" a fish. The primal urge to hunt and fish to which you refer is a vestige of the subsistence existence that characterized human life before such things had any sense of sport about them. But that's the fundamental and meaningful difference between them - subsistence fishing is exactly that, while sport fishing is a nostalgic way we celebrate our subsistence heritage, and a number of other things. As I said before, the point I made was just a small one. A test of the moral compass, so to speak.

My point sure wasn't about aboriginal fishing rights or the allocation of the fishery resource amongst the various groups competing for their share, despite what you and a few others have suggested. Instead of just saying "you've got a point", but what about these other issues", you ignored what the original point was about, and proceeded to misconstrue it.

And you just can't give up on the stereotypical thinking. Instead of challenging the studies, court rulings, etc., you'd rather suggest that anyone who is not working "in the field" can't possibly have any idea, let alone evidence to back it up, that's worth considering. I am a committed sports fisherman and have been for a very long time, but as I said before, I don't think that matters in terms of dealing with the point I was making. You seems like a pretty committed sports fisherman too, but whether you are or are not doesn't validate of invalidate your arguments, which must stand or fall on their own. Reason, logic and evidence matter in the argument - where you are from or what you do for a living don't.

This isn't going anywhere with respect to the simple point I made in that post so long ago. Maybe we should shift gears.

First, is there any way to move this to the "conservation, fishery politics, and management" forum? I think my digression ended up hijacking this thread, which was about something else entirely. Going back to it, I think it would be hard to release a monster halibut, but based on what I've read here, I would probably give is some serious thought. But the way my halibut fishing has been going, I probably won't be struggling with the decision anytime soon.

Second, how about shifting the discussion entirely. Putting aside the constitutional rights of First Nations to fish, what about the allocation of the fishery resource between the sports fishing industry and the commercial fishing industry. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the sports fishing industry generates a great deal more economic activity than the commercial fishing industry. Is that the case, and does the evidence back it up? If so, what do people think of shrinking the commercial fishing industry even further? Has that been advanced? What are the pros and cons? How much, if any, commercial fishery should be allowed, especially in light of the fish farming alternative?

Fishmyster, I think you suggested as much earlier when you said because of the resource benefits (low impact on fish stocks) and economic benefits, sportfishing should be prioritized. As a sportsfisherman and current or former commercial fisherman, I suspect you know something about this subject.

And last, what makes you think you're driving me nuts? Discussion, like fishing, is always fun. Discussing fishing is as good as it gets. That's why some guys are going for more than popcorn!!

 

[Fishmyster]

Saxe, As you seem so educated in the law. Can you please comment on how you think the courts might rule on this sinerio: Here is a homeless guy. Lets call him Fred. Fred is homeless and totaly broke. As the reading you presented earlier reads he would easily fall under the criteria necessary to fish for sustinance as non native. Now poor Fred is so broke that he cannot afford a boat, motor or even a car. He does get welfare but that still doesn't seem to give him the lifestile that he thinks he deserves. When Poor Freddy is so hungry or tired of eating Mac Donalds and decides to get his substinance fish how is this going to happen??? He doesn't have the boat or general skills to fish or he probably wouldn't be in such poverty. Can Freddy have a friend or relative, someone with a boat and gas go catch his food fish for him? Can you please explain to me how the guy in total poverty is going to have the means to aquire the sustinance fish that he so badly needs. If I went and caught him some food fish under his exemption would this be legal??
Let's start with your request for me to challenge your court rulling stuff first and later we can disscuss why I stereotype you. If you want to start a new thread that's good too.

 

[Fishmyster]

Saxe, I forgot to mention. In the mean time if you want some others opinion go to one of the hunting forums and try to convince the other sportsmen there that they really don't need thier deer, elk or moose as much as some others do.

 

[Gunsmith]

Where is this going?

 

[Saxe Point]

You're not reading carefully myster. I said more than once that this was not about legal rights to fish, but moral and ethical claims. I also said that First Nation fishing rights are something else as well. The law has a sizeable moral component, but often reflects other interests and values. If a person has to catch a fish because he goes hungry if he doesn't, he needs the fish more than I do, and more than many others do. That's what I believe and what I hope everyone else would believe. But everyone is free to believe what they like.

It's a moral issue not a legal one.

What about the alternative topic I brought up? Any thoughts?

 

[Fishmyster]

You're not reading carefully myster. I said more than once that this was not about legal rights to fish, but moral and ethical claims. I also said that First Nation fishing rights are something else as well. The law has a sizeable moral component, but often reflects other interests and values. If a person has to catch a fish because he goes hungry if he doesn't, he needs the fish more than I do, and more than many others do. That's what I believe and what I hope everyone else would believe. But everyone is free to believe what they like.

It's a moral issue not a legal one.

What about the alternative topic I brought up? Any thoughts?

"And you just can't give up on the stereotypical thinking. Instead of challenging the studies, court rulings, etc.,"

I don't get you!

 

[fishinforever]

Well... I doubt i would release a big hali if i got one, but i never have so hopefully I get the chance to make the decision soon! 3 weeks, good luck boys

 

[Gunsmith]

I used to consider throwing back. Now it is bonk!

 

[tincan]

I never used to consider throwing back (mostly lingcod and salmon where I grew up.. no hali around)... but that was until I was about 16 and started getting more educated and involved in conservation efforts. That said, I've never had to deal with an empty fridge so I certainly won't pass any sort of judgement on people in that situation. I have no problem passing judgement, however, on people who keep undersized/breeders/more than legal limits and who know what they are doing is wrong. Everyone has to make their own decisions but I believe they need to be INFORMED decisions and that is why we need to look and the science and studies that try to explain how our actions effect our ocean.

I used to consider throwing back. Now it is bonk!

 

[Saxe Point]

"And you just can't give up on the stereotypical thinking. Instead of challenging the studies, court rulings, etc.,"

I don't get you!

No, you don't get "it". My posts were about a real simple point, as I've repeated for a few posts now. You are the one who brought the subject of First Nations up, with the clear implication that since, in your experience, they "are the richest kids on the block" and "the chosen ones", their fishing rights were somehow of questionable worth, even though that's not what my point was about. My reference to a study was to rebut your statement suggesting that all First Nations are wealthy and show your statement for what it was worth, which was nothing if we are talking about moral and ethical claims of subsistence and sports fishermen.

What I don't get is why it's so hard for you to agree that, as a general statement of principle, it is fair to say that a subsistence fisherman needs a fish in a more important way than someone who fishes for sport. It's not like you would be admitting to a weakness or saying that your need to fish for sport has no importance. Is it not possible for anyone to need a fish more than a sportsfisherman? What if you were a subsistence fisherman? Would that change your view?

 

[Saxe Point]

actually i do NEED to catch the fish more than someone else, afterall how do the donated halibut get to the food bank for the ppl who ARE in NEED...holmes*

Now that's clever!!! If the sportsfishermen donated some of their catch to the food bank, that's a great way to recognize that there are some people who really need a fish (amongst other things) more than they do.

That's all my point was about and you've put a great spin on it! Now I know why I keep reading about the mighty holmes!

 

[Gunsmith]

After spending the money I have and paying the rest to a government that has no remorse about how they give to the rich and take from the poor I have no remorse about what I do. I don't take even my limit so why should I release? I enjoy immensly eating the little I do take.

I never used to consider throwing back (mostly lingcod and salmon where I grew up.. no hali around)... but that was until I was about 16 and started getting more educated and involved in conservation efforts. That said, I've never had to deal with an empty fridge so I certainly won't pass any sort of judgement on people in that situation. I have no problem passing judgement, however, on people who keep undersized/breeders/more than legal limits and who know what they are doing is wrong. Everyone has to make their own decisions but I believe they need to be INFORMED decisions and that is why we need to look and the science and studies that try to explain how our actions effect our ocean.

 

[tincan]

The biggest issue I have related to this thread is waste. Some of my good buddies make many of the same arguments as those made by the "whack em and stack em" types on this board. When I see my buddies freezers at the end of the winter with freezerburned hali and salmon that they end up throwing out that is what I have a problem with. Wasting food (especially a delicious and fragile species) is despicable IMO. I am aware that there are countless examples of the commercial and/or FN fisheries wasting fish as well but that doesn't make it right for us to. If you can seriously pull in a 200 lb hali and carve it up and not have it go to waste then all the power to you and those you share it with.

 

[hooktender68]

Just wondering Saxe, youre not the guy who keeps stirring up **** on here and getting booted off only to come back under a new name and do the same are ya ? Your ranting sounds kinda familiar. anyhow just wondering.

 

[Dave S]

Now that's clever!!! If the sportsfishermen donated some of their catch to the food bank, that's a great way to recognize that there are some people who really need a fish (amongst other things) more than they do.

That's all my point was about and you've put a great spin on it! Now I know why I keep reading about the mighty holmes!

I don't get it Saxe. Is all your trying to say is that poor and homeless need food more than than the average sports fisherman? Isn't that obvious. The way I read it was that you were saying there are other fisherman out there that need fish more than the average sports fisherman. Is this right? Who would this needy fisherman be? Commercial fisherman get more than enough fish after they are done. Aboriginal fisherman get plenty as well. They distribute throughout their community and from what I have heard and seen, they usually have a stocked freezer and don't finish what they are given before it goes bad. So you can't be referring to this group. Who are these poor and needy fisherman? Don't get me wrong, I have a job and could afford to buy food instead of catching it, (couldn't afford halibut on my wage) but I enjoy time on the water hunting down a fresh piece of meat. Also, I do feel there are people in our communities that need food more than sporties, but I can't conceive them using money to buy gear to try and catch their food. And considering this all stems from keeping large halibut, they would require a lot more than a cheap rod and reel to be able to catch these.

I've got a ? for you...... have you ever released a large halibut?

 

[tincan]

I don't know about the history of this forum as i've only been around for a few years but based on this thread I've gotta say Saxe's argument is quite coherent and logical. Don't think he's stirring anything up... just stating his opinion... but that's just my take. I'll let him reply for himself if he sees fit.

Just wondering Saxe, youre not the guy who keeps stirring up **** on here and getting booted off only to come back under a new name and do the same are ya ? Your ranting sounds kinda familiar. anyhow just wondering.

 

[Dave S]

The biggest issue I have related to this thread is waste. Some of my good buddies make many of the same arguments as those made by the "whack em and stack em" types on this board. When I see my buddies freezers at the end of the winter with freezerburned hali and salmon that they end up throwing out that is what I have a problem with. Wasting food (especially a delicious and fragile species) is despicable IMO. I am aware that there are countless examples of the commercial and/or FN fisheries wasting fish as well but that doesn't make it right for us to. If you can seriously pull in a 200 lb hali and carve it up and not have it go to waste then all the power to you and those you share it with.

Totally agree. I don't know if there are that many on here that mismanage there freezer stocks. If there is, shame on you. Hope you tongue lashed your buddies for their wasting habits.

 

[Gunsmith]

Amen. I agree with that as I would not bonk and waste. I get very little as it is and would really want to ensure that the resource is protected.

The biggest issue I have related to this thread is waste. Some of my good buddies make many of the same arguments as those made by the "whack em and stack em" types on this board. When I see my buddies freezers at the end of the winter with freezerburned hali and salmon that they end up throwing out that is what I have a problem with. Wasting food (especially a delicious and fragile species) is despicable IMO. I am aware that there are countless examples of the commercial and/or FN fisheries wasting fish as well but that doesn't make it right for us to. If you can seriously pull in a 200 lb hali and carve it up and not have it go to waste then all the power to you and those you share it with.

 

[Tailspin]

My Freezer is sadly mismanaged! Im right out of Halibut. Must of been following a certain Departments policies

 

[Fishmyster]

Now that's clever!!! If the sportsfishermen donated some of their catch to the food bank, that's a great way to recognize that there are some people who really need a fish (amongst other things) more than they do.

That's all my point was about and you've put a great spin on it! Now I know why I keep reading about the mighty holmes!

Saxe, Your such an A@# kisser. lol
When I said chosen ones before I ment govt employies too.
I'll try to explain to you again why I feel I need the fish as much as anybody else. Not because I think you will comprehend it but for the entertainment valu.
The people at the food bank that Need the fish more than me will never see a piece of fish unless a person like holmes or I gives it to them. When holmes who is a sport guy is regulated away from the fish because he doesn't really need them, he cannot ever donate any more. You get that??? NO, I didn't think so.
I as a guide I need fish. Dispite you personal opinion, if fishing is closed I will not be able to sell charters and pay my taxes. Now the people in poverty who need the fish benefit from me indirectly from me fishing. Do you think that they get turned away at the hospital even though they have no medical? Do you think they get refused income assistance when they can't afford rent. Do the social services tell them to go catch some substinance fish when they are hungry??? As a fishing guide I do need fish to help support the less fortunate people in this country. No you don't get that either, I know.lol
Moraly and ethicaly I feel that I need fish equaly as much as the needy need me fishing.
In all you legal wisdom can you please humour me and explain how someone that is a non native person can legaly harvest a halibut for substinance. If you can I will totaly apologise and grant you a win in this argument.