What can WE do to help save the salmon?

[Mighty Sylvan]

Troll or no troll Absolon has put a fire under all of you. I have read more about salmon farms over the last three days then I ever thought I would have in years. My interest has sparked and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Post away!

 

[Englishman]

....an apt description, though I feel more like I am walking by a cage full of baboons while carrying a basket of bananas....



Charlie, no response to the points I raised? .....Really?............... Really?

Absolom,

Interesting you are now reduced to picking up quotes without naming the source and twisting them around. You know full well Alex is referring to the situation created by the salmon feed lots and the regulatory regime surrounding it, or lack thereof.

and to parody you..."What no response to my demolition of the points you raised?"

 

[gilwell]

ok also to save our salmon, even if that meant not fishing for them anymore. Who would be willing to stop fishing to save our salmon? I know I would

 

[Foxsea]

why not beat the salmon farms at their own game? This chest pounding, bully tactics has not worked Alex, keep up the good work you are doing!

Gilwell, with respect: You cannot win playing against salmon farms in their casino - the deck is stacked. They own the politicians and indirectly censure the DFO scientists. Their "association" obfuscates and confuses all relevant discussion - a merchant of doubt. absolon discounts passionate and legitimate criticism of his questionable assertions as "chest pounding and bully tactics". Charlie, Lorne, Englishman, Little Hawk, GLG, Whole in the Water and several others rebutted his "very good points" in well reasoned and intellectually honest fashion. His reponses were universally negative and dismissive, supported by distortions of fact and other misrepresentations.

From the beginning, he was sarcastic in his comments and dismissive of the legitimate research conducted by Drs. Morton, Miller and others. Most reasonable minds would accept those results as conclusive. It's not bullying from this side, so much as calling his bullsh*t for what it is. If there is "chest pounding" or "bullying" to be seen, it's best demonstrated through his arrogant, twisted, pseudo "intellectual" attempts to chill and extinguish open and tolerant debate.

It was great to see so many confront him in elegant fashion (I'll apologise for wrestling with a pig - we both came away muddied.) It now appears Gollum (or absolon, as he seems to prefer) is slinking away, tail between his legs, back to his rocky refuge. His fire is noticeably subdued as are his posts. We can only hope he'll now be pursuing more compliant attention on the other boards.

 

[gilwell]

Troll or no troll Absolon has put a fire under all of you. I have read more about salmon farms over the last three days then I ever thought I would have in years. My interest has sparked and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Post away!

I belive he is not a troll

he has given us many good points. I know how these forums work (trust me) Everyone (ok, lots of the bullies here) has picked him out as a "troll"

And for Charlie, the "trust me" comes from being a past forum owner, one with over 35,000 members... so a little of my past, your turn

 

[Foxsea]

ok also to save our salmon, even if that meant not fishing for them anymore. Who would be willing to stop fishing to save our salmon? I know I would

Many here already have; Profisher for one - that's not just foregoing a few fish for a hobbyist but his livlihood as a charter captain.

 

[gilwell]

Foxsea,

We can win playing their own game!

I was not referring to anyone on this forum as being a bully towards absolon . Just saying that the screaming and yelling, gets people nowhere. Action speaks louder then words.

Beating them at their own game, it our ticket to victory.

 

[Rockfish]

I really don't know how we are going to get out of this hole, I feel I am at the mad hatters tea party.

Hang in there. The cover up won't hold forever and more and more people support you every day.

I guess now we can look forward to another round of silly fish farm propaganda ads during the Hockey Playoffs.

 

[gilwell]

alex,

there is a way out of this hole! Its beating them at their own game.

 

[Foxsea]

Foxsea,

We can win playing their own game! I was not referring to anyone on this forum as being a bully towards absolon . Just saying that the screaming and yelling, gets people nowhere. Action speaks louder then words. Beating them at their own game, it our ticket to victory.

You have a point: yelling at stupid people doesn't make them any smarter. lol
So, what's your game plan? Some of us were at the Sunday protest (at the Leg.) against the Northern Gateway Project - that's action!

 

[Charlie]

Charlie, no response to the points I raised? .....Really?............... Really?

You have not raised any valid points that interest me, nor have you shown anything really worth debating.

I do believe Englishman and others are doing just fine pointing out the flaws in your comments! FYI... If I was keeping score I would have to consider you are losing with a score of "28" loses to "0" wins right now!

At this point, I am quite comfortable and that is UNLESS you are stating your name is "IAN ROBERTS"? If that is case, I repeat; “Personally” I would love to tear anything and everything he has to say to pieces on a “PUBLIC” forum "AGAIN" [inserted "again"] and provide ALL my “INDEPENDENT” references, documents, and studies – BRING IT ON!

 

[Little Hawk]

Alex:

It's good to know you walk among us; the recreational fishing community in BC has supported your undying efforts in opposition to this appalling industry for many years.

For over a decade now I, too, have known about the terrible issues surrounding the net-pen business and as always - 'My hat is off to you!' for standing firm in your convictions against a sea of well-financed albeit pathetically-corrupt opposition.

Know this Alex: both you & Pacific Salmon have a storm of support brewing in the wind, the likes of which not the industry, nor our own blind and traitorous government has ever known.

There are a HALF-MILLION or more of us in the rod & reel gang in BC and many of us are working fervently to get us all on the same page, organized into one cohesive force against this deplorable industry and each & every collusive politician they have in their pockets.

Both our government and the fish-farmers have grossly underestimated the passion & resolve of the recreational fishermen in BC.

We will stand as ONE for Pacific Salmon and overcome the forces of greed and corruption that have dominated our Pacific Fishery policy for far too long.

Terry Anderson

 

[reelfast]

I belive he is not a troll he has given us many good points.

i have to concur. i have no idea who any of you are but many of the points absolon has raised will have to be dealt with sooner or later as you are moving your efforts forward. pointing out things that folks would rather not discuss does not make a troll, IMHO. i am glad, however, to see the passion coming forward from so many. channelling that passion into action is the hard step.

 

[absolon]

You have not raised any valid points that interest me, nor have you shown anything really worth debating.

I do believe Englishman and others are doing just fine pointing out the flaws in your comments! FYI... If I was keeping score I would have to consider you are losing with a score of "28" loses to "0" wins right now!

At this point, I am quite comfortable and that is UNLESS you are stating your name is "IAN ROBERTS"? If that is case, I repeat; “Personally” I would love to tear anything and everything he has to say to pieces on a “PUBLIC” forum "AGAIN" [inserted "again"] and provide ALL my “INDEPENDENT” references, documents, and studies – BRING IT ON!

I'm always entertained when the people involved in the discussion keep score and announce it; more so when someone evaluates their own writing as devastating. It's always been very apparent to me that it is the observers who decide the validity of the arguments and the strength of the presentation. I'm quite content to let them do that.

The specific points I raised in response to your claims about the viability of closed containment don't interest you? Presumably that means that anything that doesn't support your position doesn't interest you; given the nature of the culture on this forum, that comes as no surprise. I certainly have a much clearer idea of what you mean when you shout "Bring It On!".

 

[Englishman]

i have to concur. i have no idea who any of you are but many of the points absolon has raised will have to be dealt with sooner or later as you are moving your efforts forward. pointing out things that folks would rather not discuss does not make a troll, IMHO. i am glad, however, to see the passion coming forward from so many. channelling that passion into action is the hard step.

I don't consider Absolom as having provided any good points because he cannot and does not cite any scientific data or evidence. In fact he sweeps all of it under the carpet and dismisses it as "inconclusive". He then accuses those forces opposing the salmon feed lots of "religious fervour", creating "credibility gaps" and ignoring other factors affecting salmon. He is the consummate politician who sounds reasonable to the layman but to anyone who understands and seeks only hard scientific evidence he is hollow and not credible. He ignores even simple biology 101 arguments that the sea lice are (and will inevitably) develop resistance, and that the viruses concentrated in the net pens are (and will inevitably) mutate, just like "superbugs" in hospitals exposed to anti-biotics. It's called evolution. But I expect he even believes the evidence for evolution is inconclusive....

 

[absolon]

Absolom,

Interesting you are now reduced to picking up quotes without naming the source and twisting them around. You know full well Alex is referring to the situation created by the salmon feed lots and the regulatory regime surrounding it, or lack thereof.

and to parody you..."What no response to my demolition of the points you raised?"

I'm not referring to that situation. I'm referring to this particular group, but I'm sure you're well aware of that.

That was a lovely if somewhat long-winded flight of rhetorical fancy you produced but it doesn't change any of the facts. Reality always, and I do mean always, trumps rhetorical fancy and soaring idealism. If you want to get something done, you have to deal with reality. I know it is much more gratifying (and far less work) to indulge in self-congratulatory idealism but it rarely accomplishes anything.

However, as I said, if that is how you want to spend your time, and it is fairly clear that it is, then fill your boots.

 

[absolon]

I don't consider Absolom as having provided any good points because he cannot and does not cite any scientific data or evidence. In fact he sweeps all of it under the carpet and dismisses it as "inconclusive". He then accuses those forces opposing the salmon feed lots of "religious fervour", creating "credibility gaps" and ignoring other factors affecting salmon. He is the consummate politician who sounds reasonable to the layman but to anyone who understands and seeks only hard scientific evidence he is hollow and not credible. He ignores even simple biology 101 arguments that the sea lice are (and will inevitably) develop resistance, and that the viruses concentrated in the net pens are (and will inevitably) mutate, just like "superbugs" in hospitals exposed to anti-biotics. It's called evolution. But I expect he even believes the evidence for evolution is inconclusive....

The mark of a man without a good argument is to attack the messenger instead of refuting the message.

 

[Charlie]

I'm always entertained when the people involved in the discussion keep score and announce it; more so when someone evaluates their own writing as devastating. It's always been very apparent to me that it is the observers who decide the validity of the arguments and the strength of the presentation. I'm quite content to let them do that.

The specific points I raised in response to your claims about the viability of closed containment don't interest you? Presumably that means that anything that doesn't support your position doesn't interest you; given the nature of the culture on this forum, that comes as no surprise. I certainly have a much clearer idea of what you mean when you shout "Bring It On!".

No discussing the viability of closed containment with YOU does not interest me at all. However, if you want to continue with how closed containment will never work and the only way the "Norwegian fish farms" can make a profit is "open net pens" would you mind explaining why the government of Canada feels it necessary to do this, along with their other ongoing programs?

"Under AIMAP, the Government of Canada is investing $23.5 million over five years to support the development of a vibrant and sustainable Canadian aquaculture industry that contributes to the economies of rural, coastal and First Nations communities. This is the second year of the five-year program."

 

[Whole in the Water]

Hey guys stops and listen! I would stop spending your time debating with Absolon here and use your information, passion and time to fight fish farming in a more real and productive way. If you believe that Absolon is a fish farming lackey, hack, shill or troll, then treat him as such and IGNORE HIM!

He is trying to get us all wound up and distracted on this forum when there are far more productive things we can do to stop this distructive industry. I am sure that is what he and others like him are encouraged and/or paid to do. So please for the sake of wild fish and the cause you are fighting for don't engage him any more and move on - you wont be able to convinve him of anything it is a waste of time. My 2 bits.

 

[reelfast]

No discussing the viability of closed containment with YOU does not interest me at all. However, if you want to continue with how closed containment will never work and the only way the "Norwegian fish farms" can make a profit is "open net pens" would you mind explaining why the government of Canada feels it necessary to do this, along with their other ongoing programs?

"Under AIMAP, the Government of Canada is investing $23.5 million over five years to support the development of a vibrant and sustainable Canadian aquaculture industry that contributes to the economies of rural, coastal and First Nations communities. This is the second year of the five-year program."

closed containment with fish who are not protein neutral has failed all over the world. the shetland islands attempts with cod comes to mind. closed containment works really well with fish adapted to that sort of environment from the get go, talipa, a vegitarian, is a wonderful example of closed containment success. these examples are old news and really don't require some sort of scientific cite, they failed, period.

i would suspect the 'investment' by the canadian government in net pens is a HUGE clue to the fact that they cannot self sustain. that simple point may be the crack everyone is looking for to begin the public arguement.