Salmon Confidential film by Alexandra Morton Now Online!

[ClayoquotKid]

What does that have to do with whether farms are negatively impacting wild runs?
If you don't like the idea of farming salmon that is fine with me - those are your feelings and I really don't care.
What I am talking about here is the lack of evidence to support your claims/assertions that farms hurt wild fish - more than fishing does, or even in a quantifiable way.
If you want to talk value and employment you should be happy to know that by providing an alternative to wild sourced salmon farms are ensuring that the sportfishing industry has a chance to continue to provide revenue, employment and enjoyment for many BC citizens.
I've fished my whole life and worked in aquaculture for the last decade or so, and I know both sides very well.
All I am trying to do here is challenge the ideas some have about farmed vs. wild using hard numbers and facts - the endless rhetoric about "could" "if" "might" is all about perception of risk, and obviously some fear what they do not understand.
I see a past where human impacts have nearly wiped out runs long before farming, a present where both exist without any discernable, quantifiable harm shown, and a future where farms provide the fish needed for the masses leaving lots of wild fish to be enjoyed by people like you and I.

 

[Charter Tofino]

What does that have to do with whether farms are negatively impacting wild runs?
If you don't like the idea of farming salmon that is fine with me - those are your feelings and I really don't care.
What I am talking about here is the lack of evidence to support your claims/assertions that farms hurt wild fish - more than fishing does, or even in a quantifiable way.
If you want to talk value and employment you should be happy to know that by providing an alternative to wild sourced salmon farms are ensuring that the sportfishing industry has a chance to continue to provide revenue, employment and enjoyment for many BC citizens.
I've fished my whole life and worked in aquaculture for the last decade or so, and I know both sides very well.
All I am trying to do here is challenge the ideas some have about farmed vs. wild using hard numbers and facts - the endless rhetoric about "could" "if" "might" is all about perception of risk, and obviously some fear what they do not understand.
I see a past where human impacts have nearly wiped out runs long before farming, a present where both exist without any discernable, quanifiable harm shown, and a future where farms provide the fish needed for the masses leaving lots of wild fish to be enjoyed by people like you and I.

I'm still pretty neutral on the topic but have to say your arguments so far are well constructed. Both sides have cases but on this forum I often notice that emotions cause the anti salmon farming crowd to ignore facts presented by the pro salmon farmers.

 

[GDW]

I never made any claims salmon farms hurt or do not hurt wild fish I've just been asking questions. The media reported 15,000 jobs could be lost if salmon farms pick up and leave. That to me sounds way overstated. I thought you might have a closer estimation to the true number of full time Canadian employees. It's relevant because jobs is a big reason for keeping the farms. Most Canadians don't need the farmed fish.

I agree with Kelly the lobbyists do a great job for the salmon farm industry and birdsnest must be thankfull he got some re-enforcements.

Instead of joe public trying to fight an uphill battle to prove fish farms cause harm I would prefer fish farms proving they do not cause harm before being placed. It shouldn't be difficult, take some healthy sockeye smolts and put them in a net pen beside a random fish farm for a few days then check out the sockeye fry again. They should be as disease free when they come out as they were when they went in. If they come out sick or new virus'/parasites are found then we have a problem.

 

[Deewar25]

I never made any claims salmon farms hurt or do not hurt wild fish I've just been asking questions. The media reported 15,000 jobs could be lost if salmon farms pick up and leave. That to me sounds way overstated. I thought you might have a closer estimation to the true number of full time Canadian employees. It's relevant because jobs is a big reason for keeping the farms. Most Canadians don't need the farmed fish.

I agree with Kelly the lobbyists do a great job for the salmon farm industry and birdsnest must be thankfull he got some re-enforcements.

Instead of joe public trying to fight an uphill battle to prove fish farms cause harm I would prefer fish farms proving they do not cause harm before being placed. It shouldn't be difficult, take some healthy sockeye smolts and put them in a net pen beside a random fish farm for a few days then check out the sockeye fry again. They should be as disease free when they come out as they were when they went in. If they come out sick or new virus'/parasites are found then we have a problem.

http://www.aquaculture.ca/files/economic-benefits.php

4000 direct in BC, 8000 overall in Canada - edit, realize actually there is more to aquaculture than just salmon farms....clams, oysters, seaweed....may only be 2 or 3000 directly working on fish farms.

 

[tincan]

Here is that press release - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...undertaken-set-to-begin-in-bc/article9563287/

I have it on good authority that there is a new project/partnership that is close to finalization whose primary goal is to establish a system to track all pathogens in pacific salmon (wild, farmed, hatchery). The idea is to have a central system whereby people from all over BC can follow what is happening with regard to virus/disease. From what I've heard through the grapevine, this project is a joint partnership between a few parties, including Dr. Kristy Miller of DFO and the Pacific Salmon Foundation, among others. Using Dr. Miller's expertize with salmon genome data the group will work to uncover them any mysteries and inconsistencies in what the public has been hearing. I am hopeful that this project gets off the ground and remains an independent, non-governmental, science-based project like I've heard it is designed to be. We shall see shortly once it's unveiled.

 

[Chovy1]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this topic, but I try to keep as informed as I can on both sides of the argument without giving myself a splitting headache with all the contradictory information and stats. The one thing I want to know. Is how many of these people who consistently troll the fish farm industry and battle them tooth and nail via online attacks, put as much time effort into volunteering for their local hatchery or habitat enhancement society, as they do looking up stats supporting they're opinions? I know that in my area many of the amenities that our local hatchery has at their disposal, including sea-pens for Chinook and and fresh water pens for coho, were donated by the fish farming industry. Personally, I believe that these programs put more fish on the end of my line than any of these internet rants, for or against the fish farm industry,combined. I believe that getting out there and actually getting your hands dirty to help improve something that is important to you, rather than sitting at home, solving the industries problems behind a keyboard, will bring more positive outcomes.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this topic, but I try to keep as informed as I can on both sides of the argument without giving myself a splitting headache with all the contradictory information and stats. The one thing I want to know. Is how many of these people who consistently troll the fish farm industry and battle them tooth and nail via online attacks, put as much time effort into volunteering for their local hatchery or habitat enhancement society, as they do looking up stats supporting they're opinions? I know that in my area many of the amenities that our local hatchery has at their disposal, including sea-pens for Chinook and and fresh water pens for coho, were donated by the fish farming industry. Personally, I believe that these programs put more fish on the end of my line than any of these internet rants, for or against the fish farm industry,combined. I believe that getting out there and actually getting your hands dirty to help improve something that is important to you, rather than sitting at home, solving the industries problems behind a keyboard, will bring more positive outcomes.

Well said Chovy1.
I personally think we need to put more fish in the ocean - saving wild runs from being extirpated, providing enhancement fish for people to catch, and farming to provide fish for market.
Unless there is a concerted effort to replace all the fish removed through fishing, or replace the habitat lost through development - we are losing the battle.
You can't keep taking fish and not putting enough back to make up the difference.
All the variables in the natural world have created a boom and bust cycle for salmon already - if we are expecting to keep on killing them we need to more to ensure that we don't tip the scales too far through the massive removal of fish.
This is what the last 2000 years looked like in an Alaska sockeye population:

All the discussion in the world isn't going to change the fact that we eat lots and lots of salmon and unless we farm them, or create an enhancement program that accounts for all we take, eventually they are going to suffer (even worse than they already have).

 

[GLG]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this topic, but I try to keep as informed as I can on both sides of the argument without giving myself a splitting headache with all the contradictory information and stats. The one thing I want to know. Is how many of these people who consistently troll the fish farm industry and battle them tooth and nail via online attacks, put as much time effort into volunteering for their local hatchery or habitat enhancement society, as they do looking up stats supporting they're opinions? I know that in my area many of the amenities that our local hatchery has at their disposal, including sea-pens for Chinook and and fresh water pens for coho, were donated by the fish farming industry. Personally, I believe that these programs put more fish on the end of my line than any of these internet rants, for or against the fish farm industry,combined. I believe that getting out there and actually getting your hands dirty to help improve something that is important to you, rather than sitting at home, solving the industries problems behind a keyboard, will bring more positive outcomes.

I can assure you that most of us that do speak out against this industry are the people that do the volunteer work with enhancement. We work hard to make our rivers better and our runs stronger and most see the work wasted when our smolts swim past the fish farms. Nothing is more frustrating when you look at the data and see how in the past the number of smolt vers adult return has change since the farms have showed up. There was a time when you could count on for every 100 smolts you would get back 1 to 2 adults depending on ocean conditions. Now for every 1000 smolts you get back 1 or less adults back if your lucky. So have I just wasted the last ten years? Nope I'm going to keep up the fight.....

 

[GLG]

Well said Chovy1.
I personally think we need to put more fish in the ocean - saving wild runs from being extirpated, providing enhancement fish for people to catch, and farming to provide fish for market.
Unless there is a concerted effort to replace all the fish removed through fishing, or replace the habitat lost through development - we are losing the battle.
You can't keep taking fish and not putting enough back to make up the difference.
All the variables in the natural world have created a boom and bust cycle for salmon already - if we are expecting to keep on killing them we need to more to ensure that we don't tip the scales too far through the massive removal of fish.
This is what the last 2000 years looked like in an Alaska sockeye population:
View attachment 6366
All the discussion in the world isn't going to change the fact that we eat lots and lots of salmon and unless we farm them, or create an enhancement program that accounts for all we take, eventually they are going to suffer (even worse than they already have).

Where do you get this type of data..... can you PM me links so I can look for myself?
GLG

 

[Chovy1]

All I think is that people sitting behind a computer and complaining about the situation, while do nothing (physically or to a lesser extent economically) to change it, and on the other hand filling their freezers and pantries full of wild salmon every season is the most curious form of irony!

 

[Aces]

All I think is that people sitting behind a computer and complaining about the situation, while do nothing (physically or to a lesser extent economically) to change it, and on the other hand filling their freezers and pantries full of wild salmon every season is the most curious form of irony!

And then letting them freezer burn and use them for crab bait

 

[Chovy1]

I'm not saying that nobody who has an opinion on this topic contributes, just saying I'm sure the ones that do are the minority. The others are really in no position to have an opinion. Being that they aren't personally doing anything substantial to help the problem, while in the meantime are taking from the resource.

 

[GLG]

All I think is that people sitting behind a computer and complaining about the situation, while do nothing (physically or to a lesser extent economically) to change it, and on the other hand filling their freezers and pantries full of wild salmon every season is the most curious form of irony!

It's a fair question and each one of us progress in our sport at a different rate. Some "take" for a long time while others start to "give back" early in their progress to becoming a true sport fisherman.
GLG

 

[fish stalker]

Well I have 5 frostbiten coho im dealing with but its my first and last, ive learned my lesson. Im new to saltwater fishing and have jumped in with both feet and am trying to educate myself in the issues at hand and ethical fishing techniques. Ive been to every sfab meeting in my area, volunteered my time at jb hatchery and with sviac.

I think the best proavtive approach is to make other fisherman aware of the issues and suggest they educate themselves. ALso speak up to poacher/snaggers call them out. I think the people who take and dont give back arnt reading any threads on the issues here. They dont care.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Where do you get this type of data..... can you PM me links so I can look for myself?
GLG

Anyone can go for it, doesn't have to be private.

This was the article originally laying it out - http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/01/14/salmon-runs-boom-go-bust-over-centuries/

"“The implications for management are profound,” Schindler said. “While it is convenient to assume that ecosystems have a constant static capacity for producing fish, or any natural resource, our data demonstrate clearly that capacity is anything but stationary. Thus, management must be ready to reduce harvesting when ecosystems become unexpectedly less productive and allow increased harvesting when ecosystems shift to more productive regimes."

The graph itself was pulled from this site: http://salmonconfidential.com/skewering-sacred-salmon/

If you want links to research libraries these are good:
http://salmonfarmscience.com/library/
http://www.aquacultureassociation.ca/database/salmon

Or fisheries info:
http://www.rem.sfu.ca/fishgrp/research.html


Or aquaculture related pages:
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/
http://salmonfarmscience.com/
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/

 

[Chovy1]

I apologize for my misuse of words Holmes, of course everyone is entitled to there own opinion. Just in my own opinion. I find it more rewarding seeing fish come back too a small creek where there once were none, or making a donation to my local salmon hatchery who's fish I may get a chance to harvest (however small the donation, and believe most people who participate in this sport can afford a $20 dollar pledge). Than writing dozens of nasty letters to the DFO and Marine Harvest that get looked at with as much interest as a daytime infomercial. But keep up the good fight Holmes! I'll fight my battles and you yours, and hopefully we'll see a change in the current trend. Every little bit helps and the more people who put in there little bit the more of a change we can make!!

 

[Bows Up]

Wading through all of the rhetoric without "getting a splitting headache" is a challenge. A few things do float to the surface. Why does our Government feel it is acceptable to muzzle our scientists ? Have farmed fish ever co-existed with wild runs and been proven to be neutral ? Why does the DFO seem pro- business yet sportfishing as an economic generator (business) seem to be ignored ?

I think if you polled the membership, most of us have been actively involved in hatchery work and fewer of us could be bothered writing letters as the latter seems to be a waste of time while the former leaves you feeling you have done something concrete. YMMV.

 

[profisher]

Government never does something for no reason. If they muzzle the scientists and allow the farms to wipe out wild salmon to the point of being insignificant, locals Orcas will move out of our area to find other foods and the west coast will be open for oil drilling and the Fraser will look like the Columbia. The natives who signed fishing rights as part of land claims settlements will be left saying, screwed again. And farmed salmon won't have any market competition. That is called a big government thank you for taking the heat on getting rid of what is left of wild salmon.

 

[tincan]

Well the timing of this couldn't have been much better....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ent-risk-to-wild-salmon-cited/article9726828/

Fish farm rejected by Nova Scotia government, risk to wild salmon cited

To quote from the Cohen Commission Recommendations:

18
If at any time between now and September 30,
2020, the minister of fisheries and oceans
determines that net-pen salmon farms in the
Discovery Islands (fish health sub-zone 3-2)
pose more than a minimal risk of serious
harm to the health of migrating Fraser River
sockeye salmon, he or she should promptly
order that those salmon farms cease
operations.

To quote from the article above:

The federal department said the site would represent a moderate risk to wild salmon. The province said it is the first time Fisheries and Oceans has described a proposed fish farm as representing a moderate risk to wild salmon.

Sounds like on the East Coast DFO see things quite a lot differently than they historically have on our West Coast... hopefully this is a sign that things are changing. Quite a historic announcement I would say.

And BTW pro-fish farm apologists, MODERATE RISK > MINIMAL RISK. Time for the truth to be told.

 

[Revenge]

Does anyone know if there's any way to burn a copy of the movie onto a dvd or move it to a flash drive . I would like to show it to some people that dont have A computer ... old school family lol