Salmon Confidential film by Alexandra Morton Now Online!

[fortyfour]

Please watch this and share as it is very important for people to see and know the truth! Here is a link!

http://salmonconfidential.ca/

 

[tincan]

Just got through the video. Thanks for posting it 44. Lot's of good info summarizing the Cohen inquiry and the blatant ignorance and greed of the parties involved in putting our wild salmon at risk. Hope everyone takes the hour or so to watch this one, especially those who continually support the fish farming industry with blind trust. Science doesn't lie. It doesn't have bias. It should be the primary tool we use to make decisions that effect our lives, including the long-term health of Canada's wild salmon

 

[Rockfish]

Oh Oh stand by, Just when it was becoming so polite and civil around here I had visions of guys putting down the beer, taking off the baseball cap, putting on the smoking jacket and sipping tea and lady finger cucumber sandwiches. Not to mention LC falling asleep at the moderators keyboard from boredom, reminiscent of those old Maytag repairman commercials.

I have a hunch our resident fish farm defenders won’t be able to resist this one and the game will be afoot.

 

[Dave S]

Anyone who wants to help, you have an opportunity here. Organize a showing in your community.
http://salmonconfidential.ca/organize-a-showing-in-your-community/

If we can get this video to go viral, we have a great opportunity to see some change in the status quo.

 

[Birdsnest]

I just watched it and wow there is some great footage in it of wild life. The content tho is all old news and has been debated extensively everywhere so the video has not changed my thoughts. It would seem that the isa front is idle now and morton is on more of a prv track now. I saw this on another thread where again morton fail to answer some basic questions:

Alex,

There is no evidence to date that the piscine reovirus (PRV) causes HSMI. It is misleading to call PRV the “heart and skeletal muscle inflamation virus”. There have been correlative studies which have found that PRV is associated with HSMI (Palacios et al 2010), but that is not proof of causation. Dr. Gary Marty did admit that 75% of farm salmon he tested were positive for PRV, but found no signs of HSMI. In these cases, the tissues were actually examined to see if there was HSMI. When you tested those “gutted” supermarket fish did you actually look at the tissues for HSMI or did you just assume that if they had PRV they must have HSMI based on correlative links? Similarly, were those Cultus Lake cutthroat that were found to be positive for PRV examined for the presence of HSMI? Actually your testing did show something – it showed the presence of PRV in healthy market sized fish is common in farmed Atlantic Salmon, but not the cause of disease in those fish.

The fact is that if 98% of those fish you purchased had a deadly virus they would not have survived to market size. HSMI tends to affect younger fish – not the market size fish you purchased from Superstore and the T&T market. This disease usually occurs 5-9 months after transfer of fish to seawater (Kontrop et al 2004). This timing has been recently described by quantifying PRV from heart samples taken at different times in the Atlantic Salmon’s life cycle – right up to slaughter. Viral loads decreased as fish approached 18 months in sea water. Researchers concluded that sequencing of positive samples did not support the hypothesis that HSMI outbreaks are caused by a particular virulent strain of PRV (Lovoll et al 2012). Additionally, right after the Palacios study, 150 Pink Salmon sampled from the Broughton area were tested for PRV. None of them had suspicious heart lesions – all tested negative for the virus (Saksida et al 2012). Clearly, the literature is not 100% supportive of PRV causing HSMI.

Simply finding PRV does not establish a HSMI diagnosis, Alex. Even researchers that found a correlative link between PRV and HSMI agree with that (Finstad et al 2012). You may disagree with the difference between a virus and a disease, but this is a fundamental concept to this whole issue. There is a difference between a virus and a disease. The two cannot be used interchangeably. Fish farm critics do this repeatedly to prove their point and they are simply incorrect. Just because you find a virus in the host does not necessarily mean that the host is suffering from a disease. Viruses are actually part of a larger equation which can involve environmental conditions, individual fitness, physiological stress, etc. These other factors are actually more important than the presence or absence of any pathogen. In addition, it is usually not just one sign that determines the presence of a disease – it could be more than two that are needed to make that determination. You need to examine the tissues – preferably someone who is fish pathologist. Lastly, the reporting of this PRV viral sequence is fairly recent (2010) and has not been officially described or seen using electron microscopy so there is very little information on the how long it has been here or where it came from. If it were to be discovered in BC first then Norway would be saying it was 99% BC strain. Merely saying that the BC and Norway strains are 99% identical does not tell us where this originated.

This does not mean that we should never look at PRV again or neglect to see if it has some other impact (i.e. fitness) or if it is in other fish species like Sockeye Salmon. The issue for me is that I agree that we need to do more about learning about fish diseases, but I do not agree with “your” approach – nor do I find you to be as transparent as you claim to be. For instance, I am still waiting to see your results from earlier this year when you claimed to found positive results of alphavirus at Lois Lake. Why are you still refusing to let the rest of us know about these results? In addition, I find your Department of Wild Salmon website to be vague and misleading - neglecting to state what “standardized protocols” you are using.


As for the contention “that viruses are pouring out into the biggest wild salmon migration route in the world along the eastern Vancouver Island” you forget to mention that Justice Cohen concluded that there is no evidence that diseases on fish farms are out of control or unusually high. However, that should not mean that we do nothing. I agree that our knowledge of the impacts of diseases on the survival of wild Salmon in BC is poor. Cohen agrees that the risks warrant further investigation and has made recommendations to address them. I agree with these recommendations, but it appears by your latest rhetoric that you are in the process of creating your own version of the Final Report by Justice Cohen – using selected quotes from testimony to back-up your claims. It is clear what Cohen says about our current knowledge of ISA and ISAV here. While I am interested in these new results you have I will wait to hear from other qualified individuals as I feel burned in the past by your annoucements.


Finally, seeing as though Dr. Gary Marty is your favourite target it is only fair to see what he had to say in response to your allegations. Here is a Bionews article that members might find interesting.

https://www.professionalbiology.com/sites/default/files/bionews/BioNews22-1-electronic.pdf

References:

http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v99/n1/p7-12/
http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/content/43/1/27
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15189375?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Palacios, G., Lovoll, M., Tengs, T., Hornig, M., Hutchison, S., Hui, J., Kongtorp, R.T., Savji, N., Bussetti, A.V., Solovyov, A., Kristoffersen, A.B., Celone, C., Street, C., Trifonov, V., Hirschberg, D.L., Rabadan, R., Egholm, M., Rimstad, E. & Lipkin, W.I. 2010. Heart and skeletal muscle inflammation of farmed salmon is associated with infection with a novel reovirus. PloS One 5(7), e11487.

Saksida, S.M., G.D. Marty, S. St-Hilaire, S.R.M. Jones, H.A. Manchester, C.L. Diamond, and J. Bidulka. 2012. Parasites and hepatic lesions among pink salmon, Oncorhynchus gorbuscha (Walbaum), during early seawater residence. J. Fish Dis. 35:137-151.

The whole thread is can be viewed at this link:

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=31889.30

Another interesting thing to note which is in that link is this document which list the attempted atlantic salmon introduction to our pacific coastal waters. While morton is eager to blame salmon farmers this suggest other possibility:

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...g4DQDA&usg=AFQjCNHM5RHUgQEo_ETlumi3Y7skL1i2Cw

Ill bet charlie is not far if your looking for him.

 

[tincan]

I know there are many people on this forum who are much more knowledgeable than I am with regard to the different potential viruses, infections, disease, etc. To tell you the truth after reading over the countless debates about these virus my eyes start to glaze over after about the 20th page of the argument... and many arguments/debates go on well beyond that. I'm no scientist but I do appreciate the work they do and I appreciate much of the insight provided by those on this forum with expertize in this field.

And while much of the debate goes on and on about a specific sample here or a unique virus there what I would like to hear from all parties involved in these debates is the common goal of seeking the actual TRUTH about what is happening to our fish. In order to find the truth we must research and ask tough questions. We must allow our brightest minds in their respective fields the freedom to conduct experiments and test hypotheses and REPORT freely on their findings without the fear of losing their funding of their job. The fact that the industry and gov't have so clearly blocked these scientists and journalists from doing their work should send a massive red flag to any semi-coherent observer. I realize that some on this forum rely on the fish farming industry for their livelihoods and I can understand how it might be harder to you to accept the science that may cripple your industry, as has happened with tobacco, CFCs, etc. Muzzling scientists is absolutely appalling IMO and it is a disgrace that we have allowed it to happen for so long in Canada.

 

[Birdsnest]

And while much of the debate goes on and on about a specific sample here or a unique virus there what I would like to hear from all parties involved in these debates is the common goal of seeking the actual TRUTH about what is happening to our fish. In order to find the truth we must research and ask tough questions. We must allow our brightest minds in their respective fields the freedom to conduct experiments and test hypotheses and REPORT freely on their findings without the fear of losing their funding of their job. The fact that the industry and gov't have so clearly blocked these scientists and journalists from doing their work should send a massive red flag to any semi-coherent observer. I realize that some on this forum rely on the fish farming industry for their livelihoods and I can understand how it might be harder to you to accept the science that may cripple your industry, as has happened with tobacco, CFCs, etc. Muzzling scientists is absolutely appalling IMO and it is a disgrace that we have allowed it to happen for so long in Canada.

I agree with the above and think that muzzling really really bad but in the case of miller there is more to the story than what is portrayed in the video. I believe that it was in part of mortons going around claiming the sky is falling on substantiated facts. This prv thing is a good example. That is not right either but I know she has intent to end salmon farming so she is doing whatever it takes which is causing some problems for all of us and wild/hatchery salmon.

 

[Last Chance]

Oh Oh stand by, Just when it was becoming so polite and civil around here I had visions of guys putting down the beer, taking off the baseball cap, putting on the smoking jacket and sipping tea and lady finger cucumber sandwiches. Not to mention LC falling asleep at the moderators keyboard from boredom, reminiscent of those old Maytag repairman commercials.

I have a hunch our resident fish farm defenders won’t be able to resist this one and the game will be afoot.

So far civil..

 

[GLG]

So mainstream and the government are OK with putting PVR virus infected Atlantic salmon in net pens right when our out going salmon smolts are migrating past. Who gives them the right roll the dice and hope it will turn out OK. Bean counters ...... they know the price of everything but the value of nothing. I'm sorry Birdsnest but your industry leaders are playing with fire and the sad fact is, if they are wrong who is going to pay for it? What price are we willing to put on those migrating smolts so we can sell fish farm salmon to the export market. Is GDP that important that we are willing to sell our soul (BC wild Salmon) for it? There has to be a better way as the cost/risk is too high and your industry externalizes the costs/risk onto the environment.

Birdsnest, I know I have asked you this before but it may be worth asking again. How is the salmon runs near your operation. Can you give us the numbers of last falls returning stock? How many were wild and how many were hatchery? What is the 5, 10, 20 year average? Are the wild runs increasing or are there decreasing? What is Creative Salmon doing to help wild stocks? Still got one farm out of operation so it can "rest".
GLG

 

[fortyfour]

So what I'm gathering here is that some people on this forum think fish farms are a good thing?

 

[fish stalker]

I just watched it and wow there is some great footage in it of wild life. The content tho is all old news and has been debated extensively everywhere so the video has not changed my thoughts. It would seem that the isa front is idle now and morton is on more of a prv track now. I saw this on another thread where again morton fail to answer some basic questions:

One thing leads to another.

This Cohen may seem like 'old news' but we are still waiting for action.

"In relation to wild fisheries," Cohen said in recommendation #2, "the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should act in accordance with its paramount regulatory objective to conserve wild fish." He explicitly pointed out DFO's conflict of interest in also promoting farmed salmon, and said some other agency should take on that task.


hear hear


Cohen also set out specifics about a "wild salmon policy implementation plan," with dedicated funding sufficient to carry it out; the plan should be published, he said, by March 31, 2013


cant wait!

5 other suggestions with the March 31 deadline

http://www.watershed-watch.org/issu...-fraser-sockeye-inquiry/cohen-report-tracker/

 

[Rockfish]

So what I'm gathering here is that some people on this forum think fish farms are a good thing?

Yup They are the ones who make money off the industry.

 

[Rockfish]

I know there are many people on this forum who are much more knowledgeable than I am with regard to the different potential viruses, infections, disease, etc. To tell you the truth after reading over the countless debates about these virus my eyes start to glaze over after about the 20th page of the argument... and many arguments/debates go on well beyond that.

Tincan that confusion and frustration that average citizens feel at trying to wade through all the information causing them to give up because they don’t know who or what to believe; that is by design.

If the average citizen gives up in frustration and confusion and their eyes glaze over as you put it, that is a win for the fish farm corporations. They want to drown sites like this in confusion, and create back and forth arguments that are off putting and that will frustrate the average reader and in this case will get people to click away and not view the video. They want to create so much frustration and confusion in people that they will have them not wanting to hear or even think about the fish farm debate. For each person they achieve that goal with, they have taken a potential opponent out of the battle. That is a win for them.

The industry spend a huge amount of money to achieve that result and it is not just anglers they are trying to convince or at least send away screaming in frustration and confusion it is the media and others with influence who also monitor sites like this.

It is important for them to reassure politicians who support the industry that they will protect those politicians by not letting the debate get out of control and the public/voters turn against not only the industry but the politicians who protect them. That has happened with a certain pipeline project to a degree. The fish farm corporations don’t want that to happen to their open net pens.

Those that defend fish farm care about earning and cashing their checks. Those that fight against them, in almost all cases, do it out of conviction, a sense of responsibility and duty to our wild fish.

By the way not much new in what is in the canned piece that has been reposted by one of the Industry representatives on this site. The usual attack on Morton’s credibility, professionalism, and methodology etc.

They also try to spin the old “a virus is not a disease bit”.

When forced to admit or have proven that their fish have a virus, there is that nonsensical point they often make that their alien Atlantic salmon having a virus is not the same as having a disease. Further that it is proof that their farmed salmon are not sick/diseased because they can grow and live long enough to make it to market. In short no problem, nothing to worry about. It is a misleading semantic argument.

This argument is analogous to you going to the doctor and he tells you that you have the HIV virus but don’t worry you don’t have a disease, nope no disease just a virus, no problem and maybe you will never get a disease so don’t worry about it go out and have fun, it does not matter if you could give it to someone else (another fish)who could get a disease (AIDS) and die of it, it’s only a virus not a disease.

It also does not take into consideration the differences between wild salmon and farmed salmon who only have to live part of a normal life span before going to market and therefore don’t have time to die of a virus and also don’t have to chase food, run from predator, migrate thousands of miles and finally climb a river and still have the ability to spawn like wild salmon which just could have a problem with that same virus weakening it if not directly killing it.

It also does not take into consideration that Atlantic salmon evolved with those Atlantic salmon viruses and may just be able to live with them a little better than Pacific salmon which don’t even have a partial immunity to them. In the wild sick weakened fish are often killed by predators not so with farmed salmon, they keep living (most of the time) and spreading virus.

 

[Deewar25]

yet this bugs me even more - the government accepts the disease and thinks its fine.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1TR0lbdTGco

 

[rockdog]

Very well said Rockfish!
I think some people here are waiting for the fish to talk to them before they will believe the science and the facts.

 

[Birdsnest]

Well rockfish when a group of individuals goes to government crying foul and they have their facts all wrong or distorted they don't really come across as organized or knowledgeable which leaves them powerless. This is what has always been going on with the morton logic. She is misrepresenting facts constantly to suit her addenda.
It does not sound right to put fish in the ocean that have a virus but I suspect that this virus is quite prevalent seeing how it is being found everywhere. I would be interested to see how many enhancement hatcheries have it that are being released. This may have been going on for a long time already.
It is funny how the anti's pull selected quots from cohen to support themselves. YOu really have to look at the whole report. DFO should not be managing both wild fisheries and promoting salmon farms, I agree but at the same time they should not be doing these same two functions for any fishery, sport, commie, or native.

What really gets my goat is there is no group that stands up for wild/hatchery salmon on all fronts only on one front, the salmon farm front. Sad really, really sad.

 

[Little Hawk]

Note: This film has barely broke the surface and rest assured when it does, the industry (and our collusive government) will be in full 'damage-control' mode.

We've witnessed this orchestrated response countless times before as the 'industry apologists' suddenly appear out of the woodwork at the onset of the latest condemnation of the salmon farming industry. Their mission is simple: create confusion, deflect the issues & cast doubt on credibility of people and data.

It appears 'Birdsnest' is first out of the gate here...

 

[Aces]

So far civil..

I guess that he's not asleep after all, eh Rockfish?

 

[Aces]

I can assure you that Clayoquot Sound Chinook stocks are in dire straits.

So mainstream and the government are OK with putting PVR virus infected Atlantic salmon in net pens right when our out going salmon smolts are migrating past. Who gives them the right roll the dice and hope it will turn out OK. Bean counters ...... they know the price of everything but the value of nothing. I'm sorry Birdsnest but your industry leaders are playing with fire and the sad fact is, if they are wrong who is going to pay for it? What price are we willing to put on those migrating smolts so we can sell fish farm salmon to the export market. Is GDP that important that we are willing to sell our soul (BC wild Salmon) for it? There has to be a better way as the cost/risk is too high and your industry externalizes the costs/risk onto the environment.

Birdsnest, I know I have asked you this before but it may be worth asking again. How is the salmon runs near your operation. Can you give us the numbers of last falls returning stock? How many were wild and how many were hatchery? What is the 5, 10, 20 year average? Are the wild runs increasing or are there decreasing? What is Creative Salmon doing to help wild stocks? Still got one farm out of operation so it can "rest".
GLG

 

[Englishman]

Well rockfish when a group of individuals goes to government crying foul and they have their facts all wrong or distorted they don't really come across as organized or knowledgeable which leaves them powerless. This is what has always been going on with the morton logic. She is misrepresenting facts constantly to suit her addenda.

What agenda is that Birdnest (which incidentally you have misspelt).? Once again you are attacking Morton and by implication the whole scientific community. She has published papers proving salmon feed lots cause harm, referred to in previous threads, peer reviewed by the National Academy of Sciences and you dismiss it as “gibberish”. Your words!!

It does not sound right to put fish in the ocean that have a virus but I suspect that this virus is quite prevalent seeing how it is being found everywhere. I would be interested to see how many enhancement hatcheries have it that are being released. This may have been going on for a long time already.

IF, and it is a big IF right now, these viruses exist in hatcheries it is a totally different situation to the salmon feed lots. The hatchery fish have to take their chances in the wild. They do not sit as adults in huge pens sending plumes of viruses on top of the salmon migration routes.
You are sewing confusion again by deflecting to another different situation.

It is funny how the anti's pull selected quots from cohen to support themselves. YOu really have to look at the whole report. DFO should not be managing both wild fisheries and promoting salmon farms, I agree but at the same time they should not be doing these same two functions for any fishery, sport, commie, or native.

What an earth are you talking about? “These same two functions”. That is what Cohen said. DFO should not be managing wild fish and promoting fish feed lots. End of story. Who gets to benefit and use the wild resource is another matter and has nothing to do with the Cohen recommendation.

What really gets my goat is there is no group that stands up for wild/hatchery salmon on all fronts only on one front, the salmon farm front. Sad really, really sad.

What really gets my goat is that despite the huge array of evidence from all over the world of the harm wrought by open net pen fish feed lots, when fishermen, environmentalists and scientists do stand up for the wild fish they are attacked as “conspirators” with “agendas”. Sad, really, really sad.