Birdsnest you clearly don't come across as organized or knowledgeable I find it hard to believe you are spending your time on this sportfishing BC forum to argue for what is clearly a threat to the health of wild salmon. In the email to all members from the mods it sounded pretty clear that we all need to stop fighting each other and stand together to fight for wild salmon. Birdsnest what have you or are you doing to help the fight of wild salmon? Or are you being paid by a fish farm corporation to argue their futile and ignorant arguments? Your arguments are clearly in defence of an industry that is a threat to our wild salmon.
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Birdsnest you clearly don't come across as organized or knowledgeable I find it hard to believe you are spending your time on this sportfishing BC forum to argue for what is clearly a threat to the health of wild salmon. In the email to all members from the mods it sounded pretty clear that we all need to stop fighting each other and stand together to fight for wild salmon. Birdsnest what have you or are you doing to help the fight of wild salmon? Or are you being paid by a fish farm corporation to argue their futile and ignorant arguments? Your arguments are clearly in defence of an industry that is a threat to our wild salmon.
In a way the fish are talking to them. It is just hard to hear them when you have hundred dollar bills rolled up and stuffed in your ears.
GLG
Well-Known Member
So how do we cut through all the BS to see what is going on?
Who do we believe is telling the truth.
Should we take birdsnest's word as truth as he has a financial interest to continue his ways?
Should we take DFO Aquaculture's word as truth when their job is to promote and support the fishfarms?
What about the independent judicial review like Conan Inquire and their recommendations.
How about NGO's who tell us that these fishfarm practices are hurting our wild salmon.
What have these NGO's to gain by doing this? I don't see much money in that tack.
What about the university studies that show harm? Are they just looking for money?
Personally I'll put my money on independent science and judicial review to give us answers.
I also look at who is trying to shut down those people that give us their scientific views.
Is it an attack on their theory or just their reputation?
Just before Cohen there was a "think tank" by SFU and here are their recommendations.
So there you have it.... no if's, and's or but's, you can be a denier and use the same tactics like Tobacco tried and the current climate denial of Oil and Coal. They may work for a few years but you can't escape the truth and it will eventually catchup to you. One day when your children ask "what did you do to protect the wild salmon", will you have the right answer. Or perhaps some lame excuse that blaims others for your lack of due diligence.
GLG
Who do we believe is telling the truth.
Should we take birdsnest's word as truth as he has a financial interest to continue his ways?
Should we take DFO Aquaculture's word as truth when their job is to promote and support the fishfarms?
What about the independent judicial review like Conan Inquire and their recommendations.
How about NGO's who tell us that these fishfarm practices are hurting our wild salmon.
What have these NGO's to gain by doing this? I don't see much money in that tack.
What about the university studies that show harm? Are they just looking for money?
Personally I'll put my money on independent science and judicial review to give us answers.
I also look at who is trying to shut down those people that give us their scientific views.
Is it an attack on their theory or just their reputation?
Just before Cohen there was a "think tank" by SFU and here are their recommendations.
- A first priority is the establishment of a transparent monitoring program of wild and farmed salmon in B.C. to determine both the presence and prevalence of a broad range of disease organisms and potential disease organisms.
- Given that most national and international evidence indicates that salmon farms have a significant chance of harming wild salmon, from individuals to populations, we must look to explicitly manage them as a disease risk for Pacific salmon.
- Canada urgently needs to create a separate entity for facilitating scientific research to provide for better management of wild fish and their habitat. This entity must be thoroughly separated from initiatives that promote economic activity
So there you have it.... no if's, and's or but's, you can be a denier and use the same tactics like Tobacco tried and the current climate denial of Oil and Coal. They may work for a few years but you can't escape the truth and it will eventually catchup to you. One day when your children ask "what did you do to protect the wild salmon", will you have the right answer. Or perhaps some lame excuse that blaims others for your lack of due diligence.
GLG
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Englishman
Well-Known Member
Great post GLG. The third bullet is the key one and speaks to the same recommendation made by Cohen. DFO have some good scientists and people (e.g. Dr. Miller) but they can only conduct their research in an environment entirely SEPARATE from the economic bias of promoting fish feed lots and "jobs".
The only caution I would have is any research initiative that gets started on this front could be used as a delaying tactic. I.e. "go do your research for a few years and report back - meanwhile we will keep running our fish feed lots". The Precautionary Principle means we should be getting rid of the fish feed lots now, and only then conducting research to see if there is any way fish feed lots can be made compatible with wild fish (e.g. closed containment??). The Principle states that the proponents of any disruption to the environment should prove that they do not do any harm, not the other way round!!
The only caution I would have is any research initiative that gets started on this front could be used as a delaying tactic. I.e. "go do your research for a few years and report back - meanwhile we will keep running our fish feed lots". The Precautionary Principle means we should be getting rid of the fish feed lots now, and only then conducting research to see if there is any way fish feed lots can be made compatible with wild fish (e.g. closed containment??). The Principle states that the proponents of any disruption to the environment should prove that they do not do any harm, not the other way round!!
Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
C'mon Birdsnest do yourself and the environment a favour and stop promoting an unsustainable, environmentally harmfull industry. The evidence is mounting against net pen salmon feedlots and will only increase. The industry's Achilles heal will be the virus's and disesases caused and spread by artificially high numbers of fish in small spaces (this happens most anywhere where lifeforms are crowded too close together). If you still want to promote this industry how about concentrating your time and energy on land based feedlots?
There they can at least be contained and the waste generated can be treated more responsibly like other industrial effluents. They still need to solve the feed issue though, as it is unsustainable to mine the sea of vital plankton and bait fish to artificially speed the growth and fatten up feedlot salmon for market. Something to think about...
There they can at least be contained and the waste generated can be treated more responsibly like other industrial effluents. They still need to solve the feed issue though, as it is unsustainable to mine the sea of vital plankton and bait fish to artificially speed the growth and fatten up feedlot salmon for market. Something to think about...
tincan
Well-Known Member
I have it on good authority that there is a new project/partnership that is close to finalization whose primary goal is to establish a system to track all pathogens in pacific salmon (wild, farmed, hatchery). The idea is to have a central system whereby people from all over BC can follow what is happening with regard to virus/disease. From what I've heard through the grapevine, this project is a joint partnership between a few parties, including Dr. Kristy Miller of DFO and the Pacific Salmon Foundation, among others. Using Dr. Miller's expertize with salmon genome data the group will work to uncover them any mysteries and inconsistencies in what the public has been hearing. I am hopeful that this project gets off the ground and remains an independent, non-governmental, science-based project like I've heard it is designed to be. We shall see shortly once it's unveiled.
It is very clear and simple and fundamentally applied thousands of times every day in our technical and scientifical world and and Englishman spelled it out already: Precautionary Principle. As per design by our legislations, no one e.g. approves and builds a bridge, a house, a road or whatever before it is assured that it is safe. No one builds any of this first and then studies if it could fall down or fail. Same with medicine and others, only hits the market after it is deemed safe. If any doubt, all those things are immediately closed or withdrawn. This is our society's fail safe mechanism.
Why not here? Because someone was able to corrupt the normal fail safe mechanism. And however supports this or refuses to admit that theer is something fundamentally wrong, is part of this conspiracy on the back of our salmon. And I say shame on you!
Why not here? Because someone was able to corrupt the normal fail safe mechanism. And however supports this or refuses to admit that theer is something fundamentally wrong, is part of this conspiracy on the back of our salmon. And I say shame on you!
GLG
Well-Known Member
Taken from page 144 in the DFO draft report on 2013 IFMP
Birdsnest are the Megin and/or Bedwell-Ursus systems near your operation?
NautiGirl
Well-Known Member
I have a simple way of looking at these salmon issues:
1) pictures don't lie- large percentages of mature salmon dead pre-spawn= problem- find out why! Now!
2) history of disease and siting issues with salmon farms in Norway and Chile= known problem- we need to use precautionary principle and at the very leasrt, move the salmon farms from high risk areas, if no remove them completely from our waters
3) if you see a strange disease and cannot detrmine what it is, scientists should be required to test those fish/samples, and those reports should be available
4) greed and short term thinking are well known in both business and in government= problem to work around.
The soltions are not simple or cheap.
This disease problem could mean shutting down fish farms, and either shutting down or no market for commercially caught wild fish that may be diseased. That could also mean changes to recreational fishing to protect stocks. This will result in significant financial impacts across BC in many industries that supply all these fisherman and disease farmers. There will be "short term" pain until the farms are removed and the disease finishes running its course through wild salmon, trout, and herring, etc. The governments and fish farms are likely thinking about their liability when the lawsuits come rolling in. This is a big mess that no politician or govt official want on their head for officially sounding the alarm. Unfortunately the problem is growing.
Doing the right thing will not be easy and it will need the support of all to clean up this mess.
1) pictures don't lie- large percentages of mature salmon dead pre-spawn= problem- find out why! Now!
2) history of disease and siting issues with salmon farms in Norway and Chile= known problem- we need to use precautionary principle and at the very leasrt, move the salmon farms from high risk areas, if no remove them completely from our waters
3) if you see a strange disease and cannot detrmine what it is, scientists should be required to test those fish/samples, and those reports should be available
4) greed and short term thinking are well known in both business and in government= problem to work around.
The soltions are not simple or cheap.
This disease problem could mean shutting down fish farms, and either shutting down or no market for commercially caught wild fish that may be diseased. That could also mean changes to recreational fishing to protect stocks. This will result in significant financial impacts across BC in many industries that supply all these fisherman and disease farmers. There will be "short term" pain until the farms are removed and the disease finishes running its course through wild salmon, trout, and herring, etc. The governments and fish farms are likely thinking about their liability when the lawsuits come rolling in. This is a big mess that no politician or govt official want on their head for officially sounding the alarm. Unfortunately the problem is growing.
Doing the right thing will not be easy and it will need the support of all to clean up this mess.
My first thoughts are this could be a good thing or not, for our wild fish. Like most projects of this nature the devil is always in the details. There are too many examples of other research that has been done for the purpose of defending the net pens. We should keep a very close eye on this.
Is it just a typo when you say “track all pathogens in Pacific Salmon (wild, farmed, hatchery)”?
I would point out the Atlantic Salmon are not Pacific Salmon. Monitoring only Pacific Salmon without monitoring the Atlantics in the net pens to a much greater degee would be like testing the general population but refusing to test Typhoid Mary.
We need a large certified independent lab in BC that tests the net pen salmon and other salmon frequently for all pathogens and parasites and the results posted publically within 48 hours of completion. The industry should pay for the cost of this testing much as the commerial fishermen pay for the cost of monitoring cameras. No more hiding in the dark. This industry and their DFO supporters does not have a track record that warrants much trust. There should be an oversite committee that is top heavy on citizens and has Morton on it. Quite frankly she has a lot more credibility with the general population of BC than Govt. DFO and the Industry combined. Much to their chagrin.
I would point out that the draconian Gag Order legislation the Provincial Liberal Government was trying to push forward to ensure the industry can keep its dirty little secrets in the dark is still sitting out there. They stopped pushing it forward because of public concern and I suspect the upcoming election.
Finally; no more expansion of this industry at all while we sort out this mess.
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Mornin Chubby
Member
Deewar25
Well-Known Member
That was from last summer actually, not current. Interesting angle though to look at the reports released to investors...ie http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...s-earnings-harvest-oslo-mover.html?cmpid=yhoo
also another interesting perspective in this report here - sure, may be more of the same to the 'expert's and they have heard it all before, but to see all these concerns preached 13 years ago and nothing done is tough to stomach
http://www.eurocbc.org/ff_report_disease.pdf
I also find it interesting (just commentary) - if IHN is of no risk to human health, why does US care so much about whether or not the fish we are exporting are virus free? Shouldn't matter one bit should it
tincan
Well-Known Member
yup that was meant to include the farmed atlantics as well. Thx for pointing that out.
Mourning Wood
Member
The Yanks are smart to care because the restaurants and other buyers that sell this BS product (my words) are washing off diseased salmon in their sinks and that water goes down their drains. That is potentially ruining their watershed and who knows what else. Maybe it's getting into the fill tanks of the hatcheries that produce the fish that we all love to catch here....
As noted before my other big problem with the pens that isn't really addressed in the movie is, how they feed all those fish? Are they just fed the ground up by-product of the herring roe fishery? I'm not really feeling great about that whole situation either....
As noted before my other big problem with the pens that isn't really addressed in the movie is, how they feed all those fish? Are they just fed the ground up by-product of the herring roe fishery? I'm not really feeling great about that whole situation either....
Mourning you will be happy to know that they have a trawl commercial fishery that fishes to feed farmed salmon, especially the last few weeks so the flesh colours up for marketability. They are stripping the oceans of plankton to feed these fish. The most important organism in the oceans food chain. They are also over fishing southern mackerel populations which are also ground up as feed.
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
First off - the Bedwell IS an enhanced system.
Tofino Hatchery has been working on it for years, with varying levels of success.
This year actually showed a much better return (80-90) of Chinook with many being marked fish.
If you look at the numbers back to 1947 you will see that in the decades before salmon farming started there were actually LESS fish coming back.
You can clearly see in the Chinook graph that when the road went in in 1959 or so, and the 400 boats started fishing out of the new harbour and breakwater in '62 or so that there was a pronounced impact on populations.
The argument that salmon farms have far more impact than fishing seems to fail when you actually look at the numbers.
Tofino Hatchery has been working on it for years, with varying levels of success.
This year actually showed a much better return (80-90) of Chinook with many being marked fish.
If you look at the numbers back to 1947 you will see that in the decades before salmon farming started there were actually LESS fish coming back.
You can clearly see in the Chinook graph that when the road went in in 1959 or so, and the 400 boats started fishing out of the new harbour and breakwater in '62 or so that there was a pronounced impact on populations.
The argument that salmon farms have far more impact than fishing seems to fail when you actually look at the numbers.
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ClayoquotKid
Active Member
This is all species in Clayoquot - Watta, Megin, Atleo, Moyeha, Warn, Cypre, Tranquil Kennedy Lake and River.
Don't have 2009 in there yet, still getting numbers from fisheries guys.
Farms came in around the mid to late 80's and Atlantic were cultured past 1990 or so.
As far as abundance in general therehave been ups and downs, nothing showing that farms have impacted salmon in general in any way.
If you want to cherry pick one or two species that also have the highest fishing pressure and say that they (farms) are responsible for declines, you must also recognize that other species like Chum are doing much better - with near natural abundance cycles - without the fishing pressure.
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ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Here is Megin Chinook.
Un-enhanced, no more than 2 farms nearby, ever - one for the last decade or more.
View attachment 6337
Un-enhanced, no more than 2 farms nearby, ever - one for the last decade or more.
View attachment 6337
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Here is Bedwell Chinook.
Enhanced from about the same time as farms present. 5 farms in the sound.
View attachment 6338
Enhanced from about the same time as farms present. 5 farms in the sound.
View attachment 6338
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
The link would not work for me...another format?
None of those attachments seem to be viewable.
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