Pacific Northwest LNG Project is NOT Proceeding!

[spring fever]

I find it unfortunate that some people are stuck in their inaccurate perceptions - rather than being able to comprehend things like governance. First Nations are not a "special interest group" - instead they are holders of Rights and Titles - like any government or land owner. If someone developed a dumb idea to "make money" for themselves by dismantling your house or property or sh*tting in your garden - you'd have something to say about that - maybe even arrest them. Same thing for First Nations and their territories. People have the right to govern themselves and develop governance protocols and perform due diligence. People also have the right to develop an opinion based on misleading and inaccurate info - but luckily ignorance can be cured by spending time in developing an understanding of what governance actually is.

I agree with you-on their land--their definition of what is their land is incredibly broad. You have one FN band in the Skeena region taking another to court since both claim the same territory. One band accepts a grant or jobs for a project partially on Their land; the neighbouring band does not. I'm not disputing their right to do so, just pointing out that it makes getting a project which may be in the national interest-done. Nobody likes pipelines especially when there is a spill--nobody wants them in their backyard-so who benefits when pipelines are stalled?? Railways!! think any of these protesters get a bit of help from the railway's?? who knows but I would rather have a pipeline than a couple of hundred car petroleum trains running next to me. Just sad to see every project aired on TV or in the papers-somebody always seems to be against something. I wonder if it is even possible to get anything built in this province anymore?

 

[Ringo]

So you fellas were willing to trade away the Skeena Salmon for this project? For what .... shareholder value to Malaysia. We need to look at everyone of these projects to see what benefits they bring against what the costs there is. If we don't we are selling out to our future generations.

Are you talking about the same Skeena salmon that became so scarce that they already closed the river to fishing this year? Did another LNG plant made them disappear? What are the facts that you're using to support this claim? I'd love to see those. In terms of shareholders from Malaysia, we've all been living in a globalized economy for decades. Don't you buy gas from Chevron or Shell? Who do you think their shareholders are? Doesn't matter if we like it or hate it. It is what it is. It's no different than borrowing from your bank and hiring a GC to build your new house. If you already have the ca$h and the expertise to build it yourself, by all means. Go ahead and do it and enjoy all the benefits that come with it. But if you don't, you have to play by their rules and make it attractive to those who have the capital$ and the expertise to do it for you. The third option is to not build a new house but live like a caveman. I'm worried that this province is risking the 3rd option and leaving a poor and backward economy for our future generations.

With reference to other comments on due diligence, governance, environmental assessments and all those bureaucratic terms, they are all good and necessary as long as you don't get lost in them. LNG was an attractive market for those who started before 2005. Qatar, Australia, Iran, Russia, US and Brazil among the main players who started in late 1990-early 2000. We wasted a lot of valuable time to develop some of the most extreme regulatory roadblocks, "governance and Due Diligence" processes, FN issues, etc. while other countries excelled in their plans and saturated the market. US benefiting from selling our oil and gas? Good for them! They had a more mature understanding of the emerging opportunities and they meant business.

Global capital market works on the Time Value of Money, investment risk profiles and ROI. Canada in general and specifically BC currently rank among the least attractive places for capital infrastructure investments. For those who have the capital$$ and the expertise to grow it, there are better options elsewhere and they don't care if the BC FN bands are the owner of the land and title or what have you. If the ROI doesn't justify the cost, they are OUT. As simple as that.
And unfortunately, working class people who depend on those investments/projects have already started looking elsewhere for a living. Tough days are ahead for working people in this province. Pack up your caveman accessories or go somewhere else!

 

[agentaqua]

the world will not come to a end simply because someone had a ill-conceived or destructive idea; and thank goodness we have appropriate oversight..

 

[Ringo]

.... and thank goodness we have appropriate oversight..

Yes, applied and officiated by the foreign investor - aka PETRONAS!

 

[agentaqua]

Yes, applied and officiated by the foreign investor - aka PETRONAS!

Nope! Officiated by the feds and the province...

 

[GLG]

Are you talking about the same Skeena salmon that became so scarce that they already closed the river to fishing this year? Did another LNG plant made them disappear? What are the facts that you're using to support this claim? I'd love to see those. In terms of shareholders from Malaysia, we've all been living in a globalized economy for decades. Don't you buy gas from Chevron or Shell? Who do you think their shareholders are? Doesn't matter if we like it or hate it. It is what it is. It's no different than borrowing from your bank and hiring a GC to build your new house. If you already have the ca$h and the expertise to build it yourself, by all means. Go ahead and do it and enjoy all the benefits that come with it. But if you don't, you have to play by their rules and make it attractive to those who have the capital$ and the expertise to do it for you. The third option is to not build a new house but live like a caveman. I'm worried that this province is risking the 3rd option and leaving a poor and backward economy for our future generations.

With reference to other comments on due diligence, governance, environmental assessments and all those bureaucratic terms, they are all good and necessary as long as you don't get lost in them. LNG was an attractive market for those who started before 2005. Qatar, Australia, Iran, Russia, US and Brazil among the main players who started in late 1990-early 2000. We wasted a lot of valuable time to develop some of the most extreme regulatory roadblocks, "governance and Due Diligence" processes, FN issues, etc. while other countries excelled in their plans and saturated the market. US benefiting from selling our oil and gas? Good for them! They had a more mature understanding of the emerging opportunities and they meant business.

Global capital market works on the Time Value of Money, investment risk profiles and ROI. Canada in general and specifically BC currently rank among the least attractive places for capital infrastructure investments. For those who have the capital$$ and the expertise to grow it, there are better options elsewhere and they don't care if the BC FN bands are the owner of the land and title or what have you. If the ROI doesn't justify the cost, they are OUT. As simple as that.
And unfortunately, working class people who depend on those investments/projects have already started looking elsewhere for a living. Tough days are ahead for working people in this province. Pack up your caveman accessories or go somewhere else!

Hi BCRingo
Great question about the Skeena Salmon and I don't know what the current trend is for returning adults is but if they are going down then don't you think we should do something about that? After all aren't we recreational anglers and aren't we supposed to care about such things? ..... there has been many reports, letters and science papers about the estuary that give me grave concerns about industrial development there. Since you would "love to see those" here is a link to a quick google search.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ssment-questioned-by-130-scientists-1.3483282

http://skeenafisheries.ca/images/uploads/documents/Carr-Harris_etal_2015_Skeena_juveniles.pdf

As for your comment..... " Pack up your caveman accessories or go somewhere else!" we don't need that and frankly it's tell.....

 

[Ringo]

Nope! Officiated by the feds and the province...

Feds position on the LNG investment:
http://business.financialpost.com/c...-say/wcm/5c3833d1-e279-47ea-b7e2-34d8fb6b624a
"Federal Liberals approve Petronas LNG project in B.C."

BC Provincial Government (NDP!!)
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...etronas-project-cancellation/article35802151/
"BC NDP reaffirms commitment to LNG"

Petronas' position on the decision:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/petronas-cancels-36b-pacific-northwest-lng-project-1.3518287
"The company was very clear: this was a decision they are making because of the economic challenges in the global energy market place,"

Please tell me where that "oversight" by the feds and the province played a role in this decision??

 

[Ringo]

Hi BCRingo
Great question about the Skeena Salmon and I don't know what the current trend is for returning adults is but if they are going down then don't you think we should do something about that? After all aren't we recreational anglers and aren't we supposed to care about such things? ..... there has been many reports, letters and science papers about the estuary that give me grave concerns about industrial development there. Since you would "love to see those" here is a link to a quick google search.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ssment-questioned-by-130-scientists-1.3483282

http://skeenafisheries.ca/images/uploads/documents/Carr-Harris_etal_2015_Skeena_juveniles.pdf

As for your comment..... " Pack up your caveman accessories or go somewhere else!" we don't need that and frankly it's tell.....

GLG - appreciate you taking the time sending the references. I can't agree more with you that we should play a guiding role in protecting our marine resources. Every year, I spend hundreds of volunteer hours to participate in river cleanups, helping our local hatcheries and fundraising for salmon habitat protection and awareness initiatives. My two young children accompany me in many of the events and I'm hoping that through this, they learn enough about the challenges and opportunities to keep our salmon alive. Having said that, the 'fear of unknown' can stop most of us from researching and understanding the pros of cons of new things. I'm yet to see a scientific paper on what environmental risks may the LNG plants cause for our pacific salmon.

My point is, if we don't move fast enough we'll loose on more opportunities without being able to either help our future generations or save oceanic resources. My apologies if my comments came across as offensive. Enjoy the sunshine...

 

[agentaqua]

Please tell me where that "oversight" by the feds and the province played a role in this decision??

It's called an "environmental assessment": http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/050/details-eng.cfm?evaluation=80032

 

[triplenickel]

So you fellas were willing to trade away the Skeena Salmon for this project? For what .... shareholder value to Malaysia. We need to look at everyone of these projects to see what benefits they bring against what the costs there is. If we don't we are selling out to our future generations.

No, it was a bad location from the get go those fish are already in enough trouble. Too bad I see my native buddies from Hazelton's Facebook feeds bragging about how well their nets are doing this year. Another pointless closure. It's also too bad we drug our feet so long the conversation about a more suitable location doesn't need to happen. On any of these projects I also don't understand why they use NG compressor drivers instead of electric, shouldn't be optional. Anyways, time to pack 5 day fishing trip starts in the morning!

 

[tincan]

In terms of facts/date to support the current state of Skeena salmon, here's a web based resource where you could spend days/weeks/months looking at all of the data related to the Skeena watersheds... from historical salmon population stats to habitat status to current and proposed resource projects, etc. One of the key findings from the many years of work on this salmon explorer tool includes:
Future Resource Development may Generate Increased Pressures on Salmon Habitats
Have a look for yourself

http://salmonexplorer.ca/#section=watersheds-map

Are you talking about the same Skeena salmon that became so scarce that they already closed the river to fishing this year? Did another LNG plant made them disappear? What are the facts that you're using to support this claim? I'd love to see those.

 

[Ringo]

In terms of facts/date to support the current state of Skeena salmon, here's a web based resource where you could spend days/weeks/months looking at all of the data related to the Skeena watersheds... from historical salmon population stats to habitat status to current and proposed resource projects, etc. One of the key findings from the many years of work on this salmon explorer tool includes:
Future Resource Development may Generate Increased Pressures on Salmon Habitats
Have a look for yourself

http://salmonexplorer.ca/#section=watersheds-map

Great online tool. Thanks for sharing. However, the existing content doesn't provide any factual analysis on how the proposed LNG plants will affect the Skeena salmon runs:

Future Resource Development may Generate Increased Pressures on Salmon Habitats
Cumulative pressures from land-use activities, in combination with changing environmental conditions, can alter landscape and watershed processes, disrupt fish habitats, and ultimately affect the survival, distribution, and abundance of wild salmon populations. Evaluating the extent and intensity of current landscape-scale pressures on salmon spawning, rearing, and migratory habitat is important for informing land-use planning decisions and developing strategies that protect freshwater salmon habitat.

Bottom line is that there is no proven correlation between the proposed LNG plants and the declining pacific salmon stocks. Fact of the matter is that the pacific salmon stocks have been declining over the last two decades (and at a faster pace lately) even before any of the proposed LNG plants were commissioned. Like what Spring Fever said above, nobody likes these plants and pipelines in their backyards but we need to protect our national security and also sustain our way of living in a growing economy. Closing the doors to infrastructure investments and living with the dreams of what was available to us 3-4 decades ago will not solve our today's problems.

 

[agentaqua]

I think nobody is: "closing their doors to infrastructure investments" - it's just that we have a responsibility to pick and choose which ones make sense. Not all ideas are either good nor feasible - and wrt Pacific NorthWest LNG Ltd. - it's a dumb location - and GLG gave you a reference about that.

 

[Ringo]

...it's just that we have a responsibility to pick and choose which ones make sense. Not all ideas are either good nor feasible - and wrt Pacific NorthWest LNG Ltd. - it's a dumb location - and GLG gave you a reference about that.

Who's "we"?

 

[agentaqua]

Good question - those involved in the environmental assessment - and the governments

 

[Towney]

"We" is whoever the protesters are on any given issue they know nothing about.

 

[agentaqua]

I guess you've never been involved in an environmental assessment, then?

 

[Admin]

"We" are drifting into the personal back and forth that leads to nowhere. The inevitable has come to the forefront once again. One side of the fence thinks "your science is complete crap" and the other side of the fence says "your experts are full of crap." This conversation will never lead to the other "side" agreeing that "your" point of view is correct and is why these threads never last. Politics and religion should never be discussed publicly...especially on a fishing forum!

 

[ILHG]

Thank

Are you talking about the same Skeena salmon that became so scarce that they already closed the river to fishing this year? Did another LNG plant made them disappear? What are the facts that you're using to support this claim? I'd love to see those. In terms of shareholders from Malaysia, we've all been living in a globalized economy for decades. Don't you buy gas from Chevron or Shell? Who do you think their shareholders are? Doesn't matter if we like it or hate it. It is what it is. It's no different than borrowing from your bank and hiring a GC to build your new house. If you already have the ca$h and the expertise to build it yourself, by all means. Go ahead and do it and enjoy all the benefits that come with it. But if you don't, you have to play by their rules and make it attractive to those who have the capital$ and the expertise to do it for you. The third option is to not build a new house but live like a caveman. I'm worried that this province is risking the 3rd option and leaving a poor and backward economy for our future generations.

With reference to other comments on due diligence, governance, environmental assessments and all those bureaucratic terms, they are all good and necessary as long as you don't get lost in them. LNG was an attractive market for those who started before 2005. Qatar, Australia, Iran, Russia, US and Brazil among the main players who started in late 1990-early 2000. We wasted a lot of valuable time to develop some of the most extreme regulatory roadblocks, "governance and Due Diligence" processes, FN issues, etc. while other countries excelled in their plans and saturated the market. US benefiting from selling our oil and gas? Good for them! They had a more mature understanding of the emerging opportunities and they meant business.

Global capital market works on the Time Value of Money, investment risk profiles and ROI. Canada in general and specifically BC currently rank among the least attractive places for capital infrastructure investments. For those who have the capital$$ and the expertise to grow it, there are better options elsewhere and they don't care if the BC FN bands are the owner of the land and title or what have you. If the ROI doesn't justify the cost, they are OUT. As simple as that.
And unfortunately, working class people who depend on those investments/projects have already started looking elsewhere for a living. Tough days are ahead for working people in this province. Pack up your caveman accessories or go somewhere else!

Are you talking about the same Skeena salmon that became so scarce that they already closed the river to fishing this year? Did another LNG plant made them disappear? What are the facts that you're using to support this claim? I'd love to see those. In terms of shareholders from Malaysia, we've all been living in a globalized economy for decades. Don't you buy gas from Chevron or Shell? Who do you think their shareholders are? Doesn't matter if we like it or hate it. It is what it is. It's no different than borrowing from your bank and hiring a GC to build your new house. If you already have the ca$h and the expertise to build it yourself, by all means. Go ahead and do it and enjoy all the benefits that come with it. But if you don't, you have to play by their rules and make it attractive to those who have the capital$ and the expertise to do it for you. The third option is to not build a new house but live like a caveman. I'm worried that this province is risking the 3rd option and leaving a poor and backward economy for our future generations.

With reference to other comments on due diligence, governance, environmental assessments and all those bureaucratic terms, they are all good and necessary as long as you don't get lost in them. LNG was an attractive market for those who started before 2005. Qatar, Australia, Iran, Russia, US and Brazil among the main players who started in late 1990-early 2000. We wasted a lot of valuable time to develop some of the most extreme regulatory roadblocks, "governance and Due Diligence" processes, FN issues, etc. while other countries excelled in their plans and saturated the market. US benefiting from selling our oil and gas? Good for them! They had a more mature understanding of the emerging opportunities and they meant business.

Global capital market works on the Time Value of Money, investment risk profiles and ROI. Canada in general and specifically BC currently rank among the least attractive places for capital infrastructure investments. For those who have the capital$$ and the expertise to grow it, there are better options elsewhere and they don't care if the BC FN bands are the owner of the land and title or what have you. If the ROI doesn't justify the cost, they are OUT. As simple as that.
And unfortunately, working class people who depend on those investments/projects have already started looking elsewhere for a living. Tough days are ahead for working people in this province. Pack up your caveman accessories or go somewhere else!

Folks he is 100% right.

 

[triplenickel]

"We" are drifting into the personal back and forth that leads to nowhere. The inevitable has come to the forefront once again. One side of the fence thinks "your science is complete crap" and the other side of the fence says "your experts are full of crap." This conversation will never lead to the other "side" agreeing that "your" point of view is correct and is why these threads never last. Politics and religion should never be discussed publicly...especially on a fishing forum!

Amen!