New Sonar Sounder/Chart Plotter Recommendations

[Chasin' Dreams]

I've got a Lowrance Gen 2 HDS 12 touch screen at my helm that is tied into my NMEA 2000 backbone with the AIS, Radar etc all on the same backbone. I want to put a second 9" or 12" sonar plotter at my rear helm and have a couple questions about doing so. Wondering if any of you guys have experience with doing so or certain brands models that you like over the others?

When I add the second unit I would like to have it on it's own, separate from the front helm unit. Like not sharing the same screen as the other unit. So I realize this would mean having the second unit on it's own transducer but will I be able to simply add this unit into the NMEA backbone and then just put it on it's own power source/fuse? Or is there more to it than that? My backbone has it's own power input to the backbone so I should just be able to put another "T" into the backbone for the second sounder/plotter right?

I've had the Lowrance HDS touch screens on my last couple boats and am used to their functions. If I go with a different brand/model for the rear unit such as a Simrad do you think there's a lot of difference to get used to with their functions/options? I was told that Simrad is the parent company of Lowrance so do they have similar funtions?

Side scan abilities... My forward helm Lowrance unit has the ability to have a side scan transducer put on it but I don't have that on it yet but have been thinking about it. A sales guy at a store the other day told me that some of the new 12" units available right now come with the side scanning transducers. I haven't confirmed which units he was referring to yet but am interested in the side scan if it is very beneficial to bottom fishing and salmon fishing. Any of you guys use the side scanning transducers? What are your opinions on this feature? Worth it as an add on or if the new units come with it?

I think most of the new units these days also come with wifi updating capabilities but if there are any other functions and abilities that certain brands/models have that others don't please include that info too.

 

[Sharphooks]

I’m going through this same exact exercise. I just pulled the trigger on a new-to-me boat yesterday ....it’s 100% Garmin—-I’ve used Furuno in my last four boats so this is a new set-up for me. But when I sold my last boat I stripped a 14” Furuno head unit out of the boat and removed a Furuno/Airmar triple-beam side scan transducer.

So even though this boat has two Garmin touch screens and radar and AIS etc etc, I’m installing the Furuno head unit with its own chartplotting capabilities (for redundancy on its own separate Can Bus backbone) and when using the Garmin touch screens for nav or radar I’ll use the 14” Furuno screen for the triple-beam sonar. I’ll also install a separate GPS puck for true redundancy

Regarding your CanBus comment: yes, you can power your second stand-alone MFD off an existing power-tee in your existing backbone but then it won’t be a stand-alone unit and you might run into compatibility issues, especially if you’re mixing MFD brands. I can tell you that Garmin plugs and “T” connectors have a totally different orientation then the Maretron equipment (as far as how they fasten to bulkheads etc) that is typically associated with Furuno installations

My plan is to build a totally parallel stand-alone CanBus backbone when installing my Furuno (using Maretron connectors) . Then I won’t have to worry about compatibility issues with the Garmin. And that of course requires a separate “Power tee” which is the way I did it in my last boat.....the key is to have real estate in the console of your boat to fit the two parallel back-bones and do a nice clean (“sani”) install


The Garmin in the boat I just closed on also has side scan capabilities —- I have that long stick of a transducer mounted on the transom of the boat boat—-it’ll be interesting to compare their side scan capabilities with the Furuno DFF3D

Here’s a screen shot from that transducer when I had it mounted on my Skagit Orca and how I hung it from the transom of my Orca.

You’re seeing bait balls so the range is shifted up the column,— the resolution of the bait balls wasn’t all that hot in this pic but you can see how nice and crisp the returns are in the side-scan mode which is REALLY helpful when you’re needing to see how the bait is oriented in the column relative to the bottom—-it took a lot of tweaking to sharpen the targets after owning the transducer for a few seasons but once I got it dialed in I realized there was no way I was going to cut it loose when I sold my Orca.....it’s being attached to my Seasport as I write via fabbed transom bracket.

 

[Chasin' Dreams]

I’m going through this same exact exercise. I just pulled the trigger on a new-to-me boat yesterday ....it’s 100% Garmin—-I’ve used Furuno in my last four boats so this is a new set-up for me. But when I sold my last boat I stripped a 14” Furuno head unit out of the boat and removed a Furuno/Airmar triple-beam side scan transducer.

So even though this boat has two Garmin touch screens and radar and AIS etc etc, I’m installing the Furuno head unit with its own chartplotting capabilities (for redundancy on its own separate Can Bus backbone) and when using the Garmin touch screens for nav or radar I’ll use the 14” Furuno screen for the triple-beam sonar. I’ll also install a separate GPS puck for true redundancy

Regarding your CanBus comment: yes, you can power your second stand-alone MFD off an existing power-tee in your existing backbone but then it won’t be a stand-alone unit and you might run into compatibility issues, especially if you’re mixing MFD brands. I can tell you that Garmin plugs and “T” connectors have a totally different orientation then the Maretron equipment (as far as how they fasten to bulkheads etc) that is typically associated with Furuno installations

My plan is to build a totally parallel stand-alone CanBus backbone when installing my Furuno (using Maretron connectors) . Then I won’t have to worry about compatibility issues with the Garmin. And that of course requires a separate “Power tee” which is the way I did it in my last boat.....the key is to have real estate in the console of your boat to fit the two parallel back-bones and do a nice clean (“sani”) install


The Garmin in the boat I just closed on also has side scan capabilities —- I have that long stick of a transducer mounted on the transom of the boat boat—-it’ll be interesting to compare their side scan capabilities with the Furuno DFF3D

Here’s a screen shot from that transducer when I had it mounted on my Skagit Orca and how I hung it from the transom of my Orca.

You’re seeing bait balls so the range is shifted up the column,— the resolution of the bait balls wasn’t all that hot in this pic but you can see how nice and crisp the returns are in the side-scan mode which is REALLY helpful when you’re needing to see how the bait is oriented in the column relative to the bottom—-it took a lot of tweaking to sharpen the targets after owning the transducer for a few seasons but once I got it dialed in I realized there was no way I was going to cut it loose when I sold my Orca.....it’s being attached to my Seasport as I write via fabbed transom bracket. View attachment 56666 View attachment 56667

Right on thank you for the info! Ya I was thinking about just putting the add on unit on it's own backbone and power supply just to be save in case the other unit goes down etc. I've got a couple different bus bar/fuse banks in my boat and the space to do the wiring isn't a worry so that should be all fine. I've been watching video's on the different make/models out there of the new sounder/plotters with their side scan capabilities so will try to decide from there and pick the brains of some of the local reps to see what they've heard from their customers about different units. Seems like there's a lot of adjustments that can be made to dial in the scanning quality too.

So what kind of a new boat did you buy!? Congrats!

 

[Sharphooks]

Just as a side note: On my Orca I powered one of my CanBus backbones with my Suzuki ignition—-once I was powered “on”, the ignition module powered up the C-10 gauge that showed RPM, fuel burn etc. That same power gave juice to my GPS puck and to my heading sensor.

When I built a separate backbone for the other MFD to get redundancy, I inserted a Maretron “power tee” and put a switch on that so I could power the backbone on and off as needed.

I’m a big believer in redundant electronics—-I’ve had me arse saved numerous times having back-up, especially GPS when in unfamiliar waters

I end up getting a 26 foot Kodiak (Seasport) ...I test drove a 28 foot Commander with twin DF350’s duo-props, but those outboards spooked me and I finally decided to back off the boat size and go with tried-and-true twin Suzuki 200’s on the 26

 

[Chasin' Dreams]

Great info thank you. Yup I agree and will do that. It will be on it's own fused power and backbone. If I want to add things to that unit it will be on that one alone as well.

Awesome boat! Congrats and I bet that's a big load off your mind getting the boat shopping out of the way. Now you can get it all dialed in for how you like it for your fishing and still have some of this season fishing time to get in.

 

[Sharphooks]

Big load of my mind is right! I had weeks of sleepless nights...scary how we can go nuts over making a decision like this... part of the anxiety was which power to go with...for the last few years I’ve wanted that Suzuki duo-prop , running a s a single, but I keep reading about issues with it —- uncertain power on a boat is really low on my list at this stage of my life

 

[Barman]

Simrad/Lowrance are both made by Navico, and work well together. I have two Simrad Evo's at the helm, and a Lowrance HDS Live at the rear station. When I added the HDS Live, I never bothered with the manual, I just found it simple to use and understand because it is similar to my Evo's. I power each unit from a separate power source for redundancy. However, because of my preferences I did not put it on a separate backbone. I simply plugged it into my existing backbone. This is because I want it to see the things on my existing backbone like the heading sensor, autopilot, and even my stereo (sonarhub).

 

[Chasin' Dreams]

Simrad/Lowrance are both made by Navico, and work well together. I have two Simrad Evo's at the helm, and a Lowrance HDS Live at the rear station. When I added the HDS Live, I never bothered with the manual, I just found it simple to use and understand because it is similar to my Evo's. I power each unit from a separate power source for redundancy. However, because of my preferences I did not put it on a separate backbone. I simply plugged it into my existing backbone. This is because I want it to see the things on my existing backbone like the heading sensor, autopilot, and even my stereo (sonarhub).

Thank you Barman, great info. Question for you; my radar is plugged direct into the back of my Lowrance HDS, then my backbone has my AIS plugged into the backbone and the backbone is plugged into the HDS. If I plug the new rear helm unit into that same backbone and power it separately will it also pick up all the items on that backbone like the radar and the AIS? Or is there something else that needs to be done with the units for programming or anything or will the new unit simply "see" those other items that share the backbone? When I hooked up the AIS to the backbone for the HDS unit it was pretty simple and the HDS picked up the AIS no problem sharing the info between them. So I'm hoping this will be the same situation if I get a new Simrad unit for the rear helm and plug it into that same backbone. I was thinking it should be on it's own backbone but now you've got me thinking that it would be good to also share the AIS and radar as well and still be on its own power supply.
If the new rear helm unit I get comes with a side scan/structure scan transducer will that plug directly into the head of the new unit or will it plug into the backbone? If it plugs into the backbone would my front helm HDS unit also pick up that side scan/structure scan transducer as well?

 

[Barman]

Lots of questions, let me break this down about to help you understand.

The backbone is independent, and simply a length of wire with a terminating resistor at each end, it doesn't plug directly into your HDS, which is sort of suggested above. The backbone needs power, which is supplied by a tee in place in middle of the backbone, which is connected directly to power, or ideally through a switch. Now next step, you tee in your VHF, and Heading Sensor, they send their data to the backbone. Next you connect MFD's (any number) with tee's and they will pick up all data on the backbone (Heading sensor, VHF).

Next you plug Radar in to the MFD, this is not the backbone, same with transducer, plugs into MFD not backbone. This data is on the individual MFD its plugged into, not the backbone. The data that can be communicated between MFD's on the backbone is very limited, like waypoints. Since this radar, or transducer data is more sophisticated, it can be communicated between MFD's but it needs an ethernet connection. With the ethernet connection as well as a backbone, the MFD's can share most everything.

By giving this overview I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[casper5280]

May I ask why ideally through a switch?

 

[Barman]

May I ask why ideally through a switch?

Well some devices draw their power directly from the NMEA Backbone, like my Precision 9 Compass for example. If the backbone is wired directly to battery, well it's obvious what'll happen with the compass drawing power 24/7. Now of course most boats have the battery switch so that cuts off power when not using the boat. By putting power for the backbone on an accessory switch you can turn off the power drain when you need to conserve battery's, like at anchor or your trolling on your kicker. It's not required, but is a nice option to have.​

 

[Chasin' Dreams]

Lots of questions, let me break this down about to help you understand.

The backbone is independent, and simply a length of wire with a terminating resistor at each end, it doesn't plug directly into your HDS, which is sort of suggested above. The backbone needs power, which is supplied by a tee in place in middle of the backbone, which is connected directly to power, or ideally through a switch. Now next step, you tee in your VHF, and Heading Sensor, they send their data to the backbone. Next you connect MFD's (any number) with tee's and they will pick up all data on the backbone (Heading sensor, VHF).

Next you plug Radar in to the MFD, this is not the backbone, same with transducer, plugs into MFD not backbone. This data is on the individual MFD its plugged into, not the backbone. The data that can be communicated between MFD's on the backbone is very limited, like waypoints. Since this radar, or transducer data is more sophisticated, it can be communicated between MFD's but it needs an ethernet connection. With the ethernet connection as well as a backbone, the MFD's can share most everything.

By giving this overview I hope this answers some of your questions.

Right on thank you for the further explanation. I think I wrote it a bit confusing above. When I bought my boat I ordered it with the electronics installed by the dealer. The VHF is independent, and the HDS 12 had the radar installed with it. There was no backbone. The radar/ethernet go to a RI10 Radar Interface Box.

So when I bought the AIS I bought a backbone and installed the AIS which goes to a junction box then into the back bone and yes it has a termination fitting on each end of the backbone. I also put a "T" on the backbone and wired that going into the back of my HDS 12 head unit (MFD). The backbone power I had wired to a switch and the switch is wired to the fuse bank. Hopefully I did that all right. The AIS works in conjunction with my chart plotter as I can see it overlaid on my HDS charts. The AIS has it's own GPS antennae. The only thing I have noticed that goes goofy at times when I have my AIS on is that the speed I am going is displayed correctly on my AIS screen but it is usually incorrect on the HDS Chart screen. If I turn the AIS off then the HDS chart will show the correct speed I am traveling at.

So to clear it up what I would like to do is add a rear helm MFD. Probably a Simrad and have it share the radar in case the front helm unit ever has a problem I can still use the radar on the rear unit. If I get the new rear unit that has side scan it would be nice to share that new transducer with the front unit if possible. Sounds like it is from what you are saying about connecting them with ethernet and sharing the same backbone.

Here's some pics of how my front MFD, radar, and AIS are currently wired in. Hopefully I am getting a handle of how you are describing I will have to hook up the new rear unit.

AIS junction box and backbone. Yellow "T" is power from fused switch, next "T" is wired from the AIS and the last "T" is
wired to the HDS 12 (MFD)​

Back of the head unit. Left blue is the transducer, middle blue is power, yellow is ethernet, and far right black is NMEA 2000 wired to the backbone.​

RI10 radar interface junction box​

 

[Barman]

Nice clear pictures, very easy to understand ,thanks.

In my previous post's I mention VHF on the backbone, this is the simplest easy way to get AIS data, point being, my reference's to VHF are interchangeable with your AIS junction box, your setup is more sophisticated, but the principle's remain the same. To me, it looks like everything is wired perfectly.

The simple answer here is yes, add a rear MFD and you can share everything, as long as the units are connected with both ethernet, as well as plugged into the NMEA backbone. This gives you the option of plugging in the sidescan or conventional transducer into the front or back unit, whichever is more convenient, and you can display it on either screen, or both if needed, which offers redundancy if one fails.

Your mention of the discrepancies in your speed display. I would suspect a device setting conflict issue. An example would be my evo3 had a blank water temp screen, then I went into settings and changed the data point for temp from the unit (which does not have a transducer plugged directly into it) to the network data temp (which is getting water temp from the MFD with the transducer plugged into it), as soon as I did that water temp came back. Before I changed the settings, it was trying to display the data from the plugged in transducer it expected to see, but did not exist, as the transducer was plugged into another unit that made it available on the network.

 

[Chasin' Dreams]

Nice clear pictures, very easy to understand ,thanks.

In my previous post's I mention VHF on the backbone, this is the simplest easy way to get AIS data, point being, my reference's to VHF are interchangeable with your AIS junction box, your setup is more sophisticated, but the principle's remain the same. To me, it looks like everything is wired perfectly.

The simple answer here is yes, add a rear MFD and you can share everything, as long as the units are connected with both ethernet, as well as plugged into the NMEA backbone. This gives you the option of plugging in the sidescan or conventional transducer into the front or back unit, whichever is more convenient, and you can display it on either screen, or both if needed, which offers redundancy if one fails.

Your mention of the discrepancies in your speed display. I would suspect a device setting conflict issue. An example would be my evo3 had a blank water temp screen, then I went into settings and changed the data point for temp from the unit (which does not have a transducer plugged directly into it) to the network data temp (which is getting water temp from the MFD with the transducer plugged into it), as soon as I did that water temp came back. Before I changed the settings, it was trying to display the data from the plugged in transducer it expected to see, but did not exist, as the transducer was plugged into another unit that made it available on the network.

Right on thank you very much. It is all very clear to me now and great news that I'll be able to share everything when hooked up properly. I'll check my settings like you suggest to see if I missed something that is causing the speed discrepancy.

 

[Barman]

Glad I could help. Always enjoy your posts on the what's for dinner thread!

 

[Chasin' Dreams]

Glad I could help. Always enjoy your posts on the what's for dinner thread!

Thank you

 

[EZZ70]

Well some devices draw their power directly from the NMEA Backbone, like my Precision 9 Compass for example. If the backbone is wired directly to battery, well it's obvious what'll happen with the compass drawing power 24/7. Now of course most boats have the battery switch so that cuts off power when not using the boat. By putting power for the backbone on an accessory switch you can turn off the power drain when you need to conserve battery's, like at anchor or your trolling on your kicker. It's not required, but is a nice option to have.​

You are the best, great knowledge and experience thank you for breaking it down and suggestions

 

[Barman]

Thank you for the kudos Robert!

 

[Barman]

For anyone interested in this thread, you might want to check out Defender Marine. They have some killer specials on Simrad/Lowrance remanufactured units that I think would be great for a second display right now. Go to their site and in the search box type in "reman".

 

[casper5280]

When you have both units front and back on the same network would both units need the chip for the GPS or would that info be shared?