EV's and Strata's

[Newf]

Was going to tag on to Sly_karma EV thread but didn't want to go off track.

I know of a situation in a Strata where a couple of folks have or are wanting to get an EV. They only have 100amp service in their units but have confirmed with an electrical company that they can install a charging outlet for the EV. My understanding of what they have been told is that the Strata Council is OK with them installing it but they would have to sign a waiver that basically says that the Strata would no longer be legally liable for their building for any issue that occurred as a result of the outlet installation even though it was installed with all code requirements met. They are not signing just to acknowledge and document that they have made a change to the original system but basically they would be taking on all liabilities themselves for any incident that could occur to their own or neighbouring units should something happen.

Has anyone here heard of this type of situation with Strata Developments? If the Governments are pushing EV's how does a Strata homeowner deal with cases like this?

 

[Aquaholic]

This is quite common in a strata situation, and what’s gonna happen is there will probably be a charge on the title, and a subsequent owner will have to take on the responsibility that the current owners are agreeing to do. I see it often with certain types of additions or renovations. Even if there was an engineered drawing that was stamped and it was done as per code, the current owners have to take responsibility, and if something happens because of the work that was done, the strata lot owners must repair it and pay for it themselves. And as mentioned, the subsequent owner, when buying, it will show the charge on title, and they must agree to take on that responsibility, in perpetuity etc.

It would be prudent to make sure your insurance company knows of this charge on title if you are buying a strata that has one of these agreements in place.

Edit … sounds like these folks are in a townhouse or rowhouse situation though. If it’s in a condominium where it is a common garage area, you might not see this type of responsibility agreement, or at least a variation of as it is not your own breaker box you’re tapping into, it would be the buildings grid system. Others would be joining in time too.

Lots of info here, you can search for charging stations or electric vehicles using the search function.

CHOA | Leadership, Education & Resources for Strata Owners Across British Columbia

 

[Newf]

Thanks for your reply and the attachment. I will give it a read.

In this particular development there are groups of 2 to 4 houses, each house with their own attached double car garage. With respect to insurance, one of the folks that I spoke to said that their insurance company had no issue with it and just wanted to know about the addition, but this insurance only covers the owners content. The building/structure is covered by an insurance company through the Strata. Of course, by signing the letter it seems that you are relieving them of that obligation and you are on your own should something happen. Risks may be low but it could certainly ruin you if a serious incident like a major fire occurred.

I have never lived in a Strata development before so hearing this seemed really strange to me.

Thanks again.

 

[InterMechanico]

Very standard agreement. Not limited to ev chargers but includes things like replacing flooring, painting a fence, adding an air conditioner, etc...
It is called an Assumption of Liability agreement.
It ensures that the owner making the change or modification is legally responsible for any future issues related to it, and releases all the other owners within the strata corporation of that liability. The strata corporation is just a grouping of all owners, including your friend. The strata council are in place to ensure the best interests of the strata corporation are maintained. Assuming legal and financial responsibility for one owners' non-standard modification would not be in the rest of te ownership groups' best interests.

 

[Corey_lax]

I had to sign that waiver for every renovation we did to our townhouse. Even if you pull out a dead plant on common property that you’ve asked to be dealt with for months/years, the new plant becomes your responsibility.

Lots of people in that complex have EV’s and are running gas stoves to free up a space on the panel to charge their cars. Or get the switch that doesn’t charge your car if the oven is on.

There’s lots more that fires me up about strata’s but I won’t get into them here.

 

[InterMechanico]

I had to sign that waiver for every renovation we did to our townhouse. Even if you pull out a dead plant on common property that you’ve asked to be dealt with for months/years, the new plant becomes your responsibility.

Lots of people in that complex have EV’s and are running gas stoves to free up a space on the panel to charge their cars. Or get the switch that doesn’t charge your car if the oven is on.

There’s lots more that fires me up about strata’s but I won’t get into them here.

Haha it's true, everyone has an issue with "strata", but no one has a better model for the management of multi-family dwellings.

 

[Newf]

Very standard agreement. Not limited to ev chargers but includes things like replacing flooring, painting a fence, adding an air conditioner, etc...
It is called an Assumption of Liability agreement.
It ensures that the owner making the change or modification is legally responsible for any future issues related to it, and releases all the other owners within the strata corporation of that liability. The strata corporation is just a grouping of all owners, including your friend. The strata council are in place to ensure the best interests of the strata corporation are maintained. Assuming legal and financial responsibility for one owners' non-standard modification would not be in the rest of te ownership groups' best interests.

I had to sign that waiver for every renovation we did to our townhouse. Even if you pull out a dead plant on common property that you’ve asked to be dealt with for months/years, the new plant becomes your responsibility.

Lots of people in that complex have EV’s and are running gas stoves to free up a space on the panel to charge their cars. Or get the switch that doesn’t charge your car if the oven is on.

There’s lots more that fires me up about strata’s but I won’t get into them here.

Thanks for the responses.

I get the part that this appears to be a standard agreement in these Strata developments but I don't get how or why someone would make an addition/change and then assume full liability themselves should something happen. It's like having a house or a car with no insurance. I would question if everyone signing these waivers know what they are actually signing. For example, if I lived in one of the 4 unit townhouses like I described, I would never install a EV charging outlet in my garage knowing that if there was a fire as a result and wiped out the 4 unit complex, I would be personally held accountably for all 4 units as my insurance only covers my content.

Maybe it's just me but wouldn't that be lubricous or am I totally missing what this waiver is saying.

There will probably come a time in the not too distant future when these "new build" developments will be "required" to have EV Charging Outlets as standard features. What will they do then? Have the tenants signs waivers because they have a charging outlets?

 

[Aquaholic]

There will probably come a time in the not too distant future when these "new build" developments will be "required" to have EV Charging Outlets as standard features. What will they do then? Have the tenants signs waivers because they have a charging outlets?

For sure, many existing condo buildings do not have the capacity to add 220 v outlets due to capacity limitations. City of Vancouver has had it mandatory since maybe 2015 for houses, in the garage or wired to the outside of a laneway home if there is no garage at all.

 

[wildmanyeah]

I remember this coming up when people wanted to install heat pumps, you will be responsible for the building envelope now ect ect.

Result no one ended up installing them. I can’t remember if the bc government has stepped in since then, I don’t no as I’ve moved out of a townhouse.

 

[Aquaholic]

I remember this coming up when people wanted to install heat pumps, you will be responsible for the building envelope now ect ect.

Result no one ended up installing them. I can’t remember if the bc government has stepped in since then, I don’t no as I’ve moved out of a townhouse.

Good point, this might be 2 separate issues though. When a building had 2-5-10 warranty, piercing the membrane in any way was usually not permissible due to said warranty. Then you have the strata stepping in and saying any owner going forward will be responsible. I would hope that a professional install through a townhouse garage wall for some pipes could be done without worry.

 

[InterMechanico]

Thanks for the responses.

I get the part that this appears to be a standard agreement in these Strata developments but I don't get how or why someone would make an addition/change and then assume full liability themselves should something happen. It's like having a house or a car with no insurance. I would question if everyone signing these waivers know what they are actually signing. For example, if I lived in one of the 4 unit townhouses like I described, I would never install a EV charging outlet in my garage knowing that if there was a fire as a result and wiped out the 4 unit complex, I would be personally held accountably for all 4 units as my insurance only covers my content.

Maybe it's just me but wouldn't that be lubricous or am I totally missing what this waiver is saying.

There will probably come a time in the not too distant future when these "new build" developments will be "required" to have EV Charging Outlets as standard features. What will they do then? Have the tenants signs waivers because they have a charging outlets?

On the surface, it may seem to be unreasonable. I get that.
The problem is that someone has to be responsible for modifications made to the building.
Being personally liable for a 4 unit fire caused by your units' EV charger installation may seem unreasonable, it would be more unreasonable if the owners of those affected units were held responsible for another units' charger installation.

@Aquaholic mentioned the potential for building envelope damage being caused by a poor quality AC installation. In our experience, it is far more common for those AC installations to cause extensive water damage inside the building due to a poorly installed or non existent condensation drainage system, which ultimately increases the insurance premium for the entire ownership group, not to mention the hardship placed on the unit below or adjacent to your unit.

Having a project reviewed for compliance with code and approved will ensure that all neccessary steps are taken, appropriate components get installed, and the 4 unit fire never happens.

The AOL is very similar to the intended purpose of municipal building permits, without the unreasonable cost, time delay and general inefficiencies. They allow the ownership group to ensure buildings' integrity and value is maintained by preventing poor quality modifications being made to the building.
In my experience as an 11 year owner and multi-year council member, any time an owner has an opportunity to cut a corner to save money, they take it. It's unfortunate, but a lot of people will choose a knock off EV charger or Air Conditioner over the more expensive but higher quality and safer UL/CSA certified product.

We are currently finishing up our buildings' EV charger infrastructure build out, currently waiting on pre-approval for the federal charger rebates. We hired a contractor, Hall Electric, who has been invaluable in navigating the BC Hydro rebate process as well as helping us to make most of our existing electrical service capacity.

 

[wildmanyeah]

So much changed in the few years I lived with a strata, first you needed insurance on the stuff inside and needed insurance to cover the strata deductible in case of incidences like your unit flooding into another unit. Then the strata deductible for water went from 10k to 50k.Then strata could not get insurance so our strata was self insured, then at a point it was only half insure like if a fire wiped out the whole complex. Then it became of there was a flood you were not just on the hook for the strata deductible but then the strata could come after you for all the costs so you needed to make sure you had insurance for that.

This all happened in like the span of 7 years

 

[InterMechanico]

So much changed in the few years I lived with a strata, first you needed insurance on the stuff inside and needed insurance to cover the strata deductible in case of incidences like your unit flooding into another unit. Then the strata deductible for water went from 10k to 50k.Then strata could not get insurance so our strata was self insured, then at a point it was only half insure like if a fire wiped out the whole complex. Then it became of there was a flood you were not just on the hook for the strata deductible but then the strata could come after you for all the costs so you needed to make sure you had insurance for that.

This all happened in like the span of 7 years

It's true! Insurance costs and deductibles have gone way up. Preventing damge is by far the most effective way to manage these costs.

 

[Newf]

On the surface, it may seem to be unreasonable. I get that.
The problem is that someone has to be responsible for modifications made to the building.
Being personally liable for a 4 unit fire caused by your units' EV charger installation may seem unreasonable, it would be more unreasonable if the owners of those affected units were held responsible for another units' charger installation.

@Aquaholic mentioned the potential for building envelope damage being caused by a poor quality AC installation. In our experience, it is far more common for those AC installations to cause extensive water damage inside the building due to a poorly installed or non existent condensation drainage system, which ultimately increases the insurance premium for the entire ownership group, not to mention the hardship placed on the unit below or adjacent to your unit.

Having a project reviewed for compliance with code and approved will ensure that all neccessary steps are taken, appropriate components get installed, and the 4 unit fire never happens.

The AOL is very similar to the intended purpose of municipal building permits, without the unreasonable cost, time delay and general inefficiencies. They allow the ownership group to ensure buildings' integrity and value is maintained by preventing poor quality modifications being made to the building.
In my experience as an 11 year owner and multi-year council member, any time an owner has an opportunity to cut a corner to save money, they take it. It's unfortunate, but a lot of people will choose a knock off EV charger or Air Conditioner over the more expensive but higher quality and safer UL/CSA certified product.

We are currently finishing up our buildings' EV charger infrastructure build out, currently waiting on pre-approval for the federal charger rebates. We hired a contractor, Hall Electric, who has been invaluable in navigating the BC Hydro rebate process as well as helping us to make most of our existing electrical service capacity.

Thanks very much for your detail response. It sheds some light for me as someone who may be looking at a Strata scenario a couple of years down the road when I no longer want to be concerned with the upkeep on a home like I have now. I do agree with all that you noted above and the need to have oversight for the betterment of all of the owners and not allow individual owners to do whatever they want. No argument there.

There is lots of information in the link provide by Aquaholic. I read in one of the links (something about Bill 22) that basically Strata cannot refuse someone who wants to install a EV charging outlet but that the Strata may require reasonable conditions. Reasonable conditions to me would include things like some that you mentioned above, a quality charging outlet, installed by a Qualified company, meets all code requirements, cost to purchase install and maintain covered by owner etc.

If the Strata council specified I needed to do A,B,C,D and E and I did them, I wouldn't consider it "reasonable" that they would then say there's an "F"and that you have to sign and take on all liabilities related to this down the road forever and ever. Is this what your particular development will be doing once you have your infrastructure build out completed or will the Strata cover the liabilities provided the reasonable A,B,C,D and E requirements have been met?

Not trying to be a pr*ck about this, I'm truly interested and just trying to understand the logic of what a Strata council considers reasonable and what the legislation (Bill 22) would consider reasonable.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Strata’s can very vastly by what’s aloud what’s not.

Can’t make noise, get a fine for allowing your car to ideal in the morning, get a fine for not have insurance on your car and having it parked in parking spot, drive way or in your garage, get a fine for working on your car in your garage, get a fine for not picking up dog poo in your back yard, get a fine if your dogs pee kills the grass and don’t repair it. Get a fine for not taking down holiday decorations Ect ect ect

We had money go out from the contingency fund that was not in the minutes, turned the strata fined a family for making to much noise, specials needs kid was banging on the walls, ended up going to the humans right tribunals and the money was for lawyers.

All the rules actually bugged my wife more then me

 

[Aquaholic]

Thanks very much for your detail response. It sheds some light for me as someone who may be looking at a Strata scenario a couple of years down the road when I no longer want to be concerned with the upkeep on a home like I have now. I do agree with all that you noted above and the need to have oversight for the betterment of all of the owners and not allow individual owners to do whatever they want. No argument there.

There is lots of information in the link provide by Aquaholic. I read in one of the links (something about Bill 22) that basically Strata cannot refuse someone who wants to install a EV charging outlet but that the Strata may require reasonable conditions. Reasonable conditions to me would include things like some that you mentioned above, a quality charging outlet, installed by a Qualified company, meets all code requirements, cost to purchase install and maintain covered by owner etc.

If the Strata council specified I needed to do A,B,C,D and E and I did them, I wouldn't consider it "reasonable" that they would then say there's an "F"and that you have to sign and take on all liabilities related to this down the road forever and ever. Is this what your particular development will be doing once you have your infrastructure build out completed or will the Strata cover the liabilities provided the reasonable A,B,C,D and E requirements have been met?

Not trying to be a pr*ck about this, I'm truly interested and just trying to understand the logic of what a Strata council considers reasonable and what the legislation (Bill 22) would consider reasonable.

I have been suggesting for a long time that strata’s put 8 foot doors in the front and back entrance of a townhouse, and instead of putting glass above, put in a removable panel that could hold a small heat pump or Aircon unit if the seller wants to upgrade. It wouldn’t need any rainscreen or envelope provisions because it’s not an envelope part, you would just remove the temporary panel and put in the device and the wiring would already be roughed in. They could do the same thing on a garage in a townhouse for a heat pump, have an area on a vertical wall that has a removable panel that has been rain screened all the way around it with the electrical rough in already there.

The government always likes to talk about forward thinking, this is something they really have to start doing.

Yes, the CHOA website is incredibly deep with helpful regulations and legislation. A must for a strata owner or a strata.

 

[InterMechanico]

Thanks very much for your detail response. It sheds some light for me as someone who may be looking at a Strata scenario a couple of years down the road when I no longer want to be concerned with the upkeep on a home like I have now. I do agree with all that you noted above and the need to have oversight for the betterment of all of the owners and not allow individual owners to do whatever they want. No argument there.

There is lots of information in the link provide by Aquaholic. I read in one of the links (something about Bill 22) that basically Strata cannot refuse someone who wants to install a EV charging outlet but that the Strata may require reasonable conditions. Reasonable conditions to me would include things like some that you mentioned above, a quality charging outlet, installed by a Qualified company, meets all code requirements, cost to purchase install and maintain covered by owner etc.

If the Strata council specified I needed to do A,B,C,D and E and I did them, I wouldn't consider it "reasonable" that they would then say there's an "F"and that you have to sign and take on all liabilities related to this down the road forever and ever. Is this what your particular development will be doing once you have your infrastructure build out completed or will the Strata cover the liabilities provided the reasonable A,B,C,D and E requirements have been met?

Not trying to be a pr*ck about this, I'm truly interested and just trying to understand the logic of what a Strata council considers reasonable and what the legislation (Bill 22) would consider reasonable.

With regard to the EV charger infrastructure, the strata corporation will retain the responsibility to maintain the system. The responsibility to maintain and repair the individual chargers will fall to the owner.
The infrastructure project to get power to individual stalls was undertaken as a community project, funded (with prior approval by ownership vote) by funds allocated from the CRF. Chargers, on the other hand, are opt in only. We felt this was the most equitable way to provide charger access to current EV owners without impeding access to other owners who may opt to install a charger at a later date

We have 48 residential units in the building.
24 owners have opted to get a charger installed
There are currently 6 EVs in our parkade

I think it best to look at the AOL in broad terms as a guarantee by the person requesting permission to alter the building the they will make every effort to do so in a safe and responsible way.
It allows for continuity of responsibility for the project to remain with the unit/property, rather than just the current owner who may decide to sell at some point.

Strata insurance policies are somewhat misunderstood. In most cases, any owner can make a claim against the policy because they are in fact an owner of a portion of the corporations' policy. The deductibles are often quite high, which is why residents are encouraged to maintain a contents/improvements/deductibles insurance policy. In the case that a resident were to make a claim against the strata corp policy, they would be obliged to pay the deductible to initiate the claim.

I hope I haven't confused or complicated the issue too much. When you sign an AOL, you are agreeing to be responsible for the alteration you've asked to make. If you actually had an issue in the future, you would likely be making a claim against the strata policy anyhow, who would then seek recourse (if warranted) from the company who performed the alteration, who would then refer the strata policy underwriter to their insurer.

Finally, our council goes to some trouble to be an accommodating and fair council. We rarely fine residents for infractions (I can't recall the last time we did) because it is generally more effective to have a quick tete â tete to get the issue resolved.

We recognized that our summer season seems to be getting hotter and longer, and demand for AC is increasing. We have issued an AC system requirement outline, and try to fast track approval once a request is made.

We have minimum requirements for things like flooring underlay to ensure that the relationship between upstairs and downstairs neighbors remains amicable.

If you're looking at a move to a multi-family building in the future, don't fear the strata structure. It generally works very well. Do some digging in the past 2 years of council minutes to gauge the tone of the council. If you see fine after fine and so forth, then it may be a strata to avoid.

 

[wildmanyeah]

If you don’t like being told what to do a strata my not be right for you

For example a real common issue in our strata was people rubbing their car tires against the trim around their garage doors. Expect a letter saying you have 30 days to paint it ect.. think you can replace your blinds better check if there is a color requirement ours were cream or white. Think you can park on your driveway well some units may not be big enough can’t have your bumper hanging out into the lane.

Parking passes for guests, no overnight parking ect ect

 

[Corey_lax]

Strata’s are great if you want to pay $6000 to paint your units exterior siding. I think it would have been $500 in paint and 16 hours labour max if I was able to do it myself.

And $22,000 for a new roof coming up soon to replace our 10 year old roof that doesn’t have problems yet. But the consultant said it should be done so now we gotta do it because it’s in the minutes.

F*ck strata’s. Makes me want to sell it lol

 

[InterMechanico]

Strata’s are great if you want to pay $6000 to paint your units exterior siding. I think it would have been $500 in paint and 16 hours labour max if I was able to do it myself.

And $22,000 for a new roof coming up soon to replace our 10 year old roof that doesn’t have problems yet. But the consultant said it should be done so now we gotta do it because it’s in the minutes.

F*ck strata’s. Makes me want to sell it lol

You should then. Just buy a detached freehold home. Or step up a join the council so you can provide your expertise and guidance to help keep those costs down. A lot of people complain about decisions taken by councils, but very few volunteer their time to help maintain the asset they own.
An analogy I could employ is the difference between dropping your boat off at your local dealer for winter maintenance, discussing the necessary repairs and saving money where you can,

OR

Dropping it off along with a credit card with the instruction to "make sure I don't have to think about next year"

I'm not saying this is you, @Corey_lax , but if you leave it to the retired folks with time to manage, the result you get shouldn't surprise you.

I might be an anomaly, but I treat our condo as our permanent home, and an investment both financial and in our community. My wife and I are content where we are, and a big part of the reason is because we take an active role in our homes' management, which incidentally, is what you'd be doing in a detached home anyway.