Momemtum is Building on Chinook Closure Opposition!

[wildmanyeah]

Negotiations with First Nations starts like this “ give us 100% of management, then will talk”.

While the idea of working together is ideal, what is the rec sector willing to give up to make it happen??

Maybe some more quota in August??

 

[littlechucky]

My guess is Barkley sound is next on the chopping block. The FN literally have a hiab crane and a 5 ton truck at the boat ramp craning totes of sockeye out of the river into a reefer truck. They have been netting every single day that I have driven by the Somass since May 1. The second the FSC fishing turned into full blown commercial fishing it was over for us.

Is there an economic opening for FN for Alberni sockeye?

(or has there been in past years)

 

[fogged in]

FN made an agreement in principle to stop fishing the river, except for ceremonial, but "ONLY IF NOT A SINGLE FISH WAS CAUGHT BY WHITEY". I can't stand Wilkinson's decision but this is what he was faced with. There was no other reason for his decision. Bitching and moaning about this isn't going to solve anything. New government isn't going to solve anything because NOBODY will do ANYTHING that will be considered bad press on the FN front. Even admitting that is why they did it would be a **** storm. You're all wasting your breath. My suggestion is we all go and start dialogue with any friends you have in the FN community and tell them your story. Make friends. Make allies. They are the ones that run the show. Some of them, not all, truly believe ALL SALMON are "their fish". The only way forward is a friendly dialogue with the them. Period. End of story. Stop wasting your time. Go buy a peace pipe.

What I hear Rain City saying is a change of Government is not going to change anything.
Sure, some of you guys will go down fighting and I wish you the best of luck in fighting the good fight, but many sport fishers and the majority of the population do not support going back to the good old days of fishing regulations.
And I might add all the proud posts by members of what amounts to legal, but excessive exploitation photo's only reinforces support for the Natives and Government.
Some photo's of anyone illegally selling salmon are certainly in order if anyone cares to post them.

 

[Rain City]

Negotiations with First Nations starts like this “ give us 100% of management, then will talk”.

While the idea of working together is ideal, what is the rec sector willing to give up to make it happen??

Maybe some more quota in August??

I think that's the case with the guys at the top making all the money out the back door for sure. But if the larger community knew of the corruption and destruction their "leaders" were causing they'd want change. Unfortunately whitey made them so impoverished and addicted they don't have the will to change things. The majority are just trying to survive. It's the same reason rhino's and elephants still get poached. What would you do if your kids were starving?

 

[agentaqua]

My guess is Barkley sound is next on the chopping block. The FN literally have a hiab crane and a 5 ton truck at the boat ramp craning totes of sockeye out of the river into a reefer truck. They have been netting every single day that I have driven by the Somass since May 1. The second the FSC fishing turned into full blown commercial fishing it was over for us.

That is part of a legal EO sockeye fishery, Thunder.

In addition - there are three components to any FSC fishery - Food, social, and ceremonial. The social component includes the right to a "moderate livelihood" - it's in the case law - if anyone wishes to educate them selves on what is "legal" - instead of what they "believe". Some weblinks:

http://kukukwes.com/2019/05/13/defining-a-moderate-livelihood-part-1/
http://kukukwes.com/2019/05/15/defining-a-moderate-livelihood-part-2/
http://www.ratcliff.com/sites/defau...s_Millerd_ATR_to_Cdn_Fisheries (00569512).PDF
https://www.canlii.org/en/#search/sort=decisionDateDesc&text=fishing Moderate Livelihood

 

[Thunder21]

I never said it was illegal.

 

[agentaqua]

No - you are correct, Thunder - you never used that term. Other posters have - or have inferred that.

 

[wildmanyeah]

My post was with respect to Fraser fisheries not the port Alberni round table process . That is considered to be the gold Standard on fisheries management by many.

 

[SerengetiGuide]

FN made an agreement in principle to stop fishing the river, except for ceremonial, but "ONLY IF NOT A SINGLE FISH WAS CAUGHT BY WHITEY". I can't stand Wilkinson's decision but this is what he was faced with. There was no other reason for his decision. Bitching and moaning about this isn't going to solve anything. New government isn't going to solve anything because NOBODY will do ANYTHING that will be considered bad press on the FN front. Even admitting that is why they did it would be a **** storm. You're all wasting your breath. My suggestion is we all go and start dialogue with any friends you have in the FN community and tell them your story. Make friends. Make allies. They are the ones that run the show. Some of them, not all, truly believe ALL SALMON are "their fish". The only way forward is a friendly dialogue with the them. Period. End of story. Stop wasting your time. Go buy a peace pipe.

Conservatives won’t take **** from FN. fact. Relatively speaking of course

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Conservatives won’t take **** from FN. fact. Relatively speaking of course

True, but look at the Harper conservative’s record in taking an adversarial approach - consistently led to litigation, at the cost of the tax payer, and almost without exception resulted in court defined rights that went well beyond what could have been negotiated. The truth of the matter is that neither of the two major federal parties have shown any competence on Indigenous files or issues for the last couple of decades, and that doesn’t look like it’s going to change any time soon.

Cheers!

Ukee

 

[halimark]

Sometime in the future I believe a rebellion/backlash will ensue, maybe even spear headed by Quebec?? Look at some recent laws. At some point Canadians who loose homes, ranches, farms, lively hoods and ability to enjoy Canada, may say no or enough is enough to a minority running Canada, when costs hit all Torontonians and other Canadian races its only a matter of time until history repeats, resets and adjusts. Just my thoughts as most countries in history have demonstrated. No doubt atrocities were and should never have been committed, again that's history repeat, some could say they are being repeated now to different Canadians.

HM

 

[Rain City]

Conservatives won’t take **** from FN. fact. Relatively speaking of course

Even if that's so, the cuts they make/made to the DFO and Environmental research, to be more fiscally prudent, do even more harm. What's the point of being allowed to fish if there's no more fish to be caught.

 

[wildmanyeah]

consistently led to litigation, at the cost of the tax payer, and almost without exception resulted in court defined rights that went well beyond what could have been negotiated.

Actually there are many that believe what happened in the courts is better than what ever could have been negotiated. The courts have also upheld the separation of an economic fishery and FSC rights. FSC rights in themself are considered by many in the indigenous community to be limiting and insulting. what does a city dwelling FN need with 1000 FSC sockeye. The fact that they keep asking to be able to sell FSC fish and continue to be denied by the courts is very disappointing to many First Nations.

What the court gave the five nations was considered by many sport fishing and commercial interests to be very limited compared to what was asked. How these fisheries are now being implemented and enforced is another topic.

It ending up in court was inevitable as both the conservatives and the liberal government were continuing to deny them fisheries and activities related to UN mandates. How indigenous fisheries developed in the states and in australia has been very similar.

Arguable the conservatives did do a better job at delaying it and also with support of crown prosecutors took FN individuals to court over illegal fishing activity. Remember most of these court challenges were the result of someone breaking the law are you saying you were okay at the time with looking the other way???The main reason why things did not end up in court under the liberal government is DFO crown lawyers were mandated to not prosecute illegal fishing activity.

So essentially the Liberal government solution was just to let them have an illegal fishery.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Even if that's so, the cuts they make/made to the DFO and Environmental research, to be more fiscally prudent, do even more harm. What's the point of being allowed to fish if there's no more fish to be caught.

What have the Liberals done in the last 4 years that has improved salmon returns?

 

[Rain City]

What have the Liberals done in the last 4 years that has improved salmon returns?

True story. I'm not a Liberal supporter by any means. I don't think any Federal government will ever give a **** about the sport fishing community. Only their hard earned pensions.

 

[wildmanyeah]

True story. I'm not a Liberal supporter by any means. I don't think any Federal government will ever give a **** about the sport fishing community. Only their hard earned pensions.

in 2008/9 the market crashed and as a result Harper decided to remove red tape (slash environmental protections and fisheries employees) to fast track development projects to kickstart the economy. The crusty government thought it was great and proceeded to do the same. Housing starts and development projects that were drowning in red tape got approved. I did not see the housing development crowd complain much as they developed right over coho bearing streams or construction employees complain much as they were called back to work.

The Liberals have now reversed a lot of those changes and I agree that's great for salmon. However they have also relocated our quota to FN and killed the ocean sport fishery. The sad part is they are ignoring the science in areas that show they catch vertically zero early fraser chinook. Given this fact that they are unwilling to budge from this position and not use the science available or even allow a mark selected fishery it is the reason why lots of sports fishing groups are urging people not to vote liberal.

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Actually there are many that believe what happened in the courts is better than what ever could have been negotiated. The courts have also upheld the separation of an economic fishery and FSC rights. FSC rights in themself are considered by many in the indigenous community to be limiting and insulting. what does a city dwelling FN need with 1000 FSC sockeye. The fact that they keep asking to be able to sell FSC fish and continue to be denied by the courts is very disappointing to many First Nations.

What the court gave the five nations was considered by many sport fishing and commercial interests to be very limited compared to what was asked. How these fisheries are now being implemented and enforced is another topic.

It ending up in court was inevitable as both the conservatives and the liberal government were continuing to deny them fisheries and activities related to UN mandates. How indigenous fisheries developed in the states and in australia has been very similar.

Arguable the conservatives did do a better job at delaying it and also with support of crown prosecutors took FN individuals to court over illegal fishing activity. Remember most of these court challenges were the result of someone breaking the law are you saying you were okay at the time with looking the other way???The main reason why things did not end up in court under the liberal government is DFO crown lawyers were mandated to not prosecute illegal fishing activity.

So essentially the Liberal government solution was just to let them have an illegal fishery.

Lots of half-truths and liberal interpretation of the results of all those incidents and the fact litigation by FN against the federal govt, not simple prosecution of violations has also occurred.

Cheers!

Ukee

 

[UkeeDreamin]

in 2008/9 the market crashed and as a result Harper decided to remove red tape (slash environmental protections and fisheries employees) to fast track development projects to kickstart the economy. The crusty government thought it was great and proceeded to do the same. Housing starts and development projects that were drowning in red tape got approved. I did not see the housing development crowd complain much as they developed right over coho bearing streams or construction employees complain much as they were called back to work.

The Liberals have now reversed a lot of those changes and I agree that's great for salmon. However they have also relocated our quota to FN and killed the ocean sport fishery.

That is complete and utter ********! Not even close to the facts. Well documented the cuts and legislative changes were planned well in advance of world events and persisted well after and Harper’s epic fail in implementing any capital projects of any magnitude or import relative to the dollars spent and time to implement. Also not a single substantiated case of Fisheries environmental red tape ever holding up a project - it’s been purported many times over many decades and refuted every time. Conservatives are reduced to parroting the old trope of DFO scaring farmers from crossing their ditches, which was as ridiculous then as it is now. There are some things that Harper govt did that you may feel we’re justifiable but this ain’t one!

Cheers!

Ukee

 

[wildmanyeah]

Also not a single substantiated case of Fisheries environmental red tape ever holding up a project - it’s been purported many times over many decades and refuted every time.

Really because my DFO retired biologist friend who was incharge of approvals was taken to court by a developer when the department took to long to approve a project but hey he was just trying to stop a developer from building over a coho bearing stream.

So yeah development projects were being delay or completely stopped to protect the environment.

Also FYI when did I ever say it was justifiable or I agreed with it. I think it was some of the most destructive policy ever done.

 

[SerengetiGuide]

Even if that's so, the cuts they make/made to the DFO and Environmental research, to be more fiscally prudent, do even more harm. What's the point of being allowed to fish if there's no more fish to be caught.

Disagree strongly