Mars Water Bomber - Sign petition to ReInstate Bomber For 5 more Years Across BC

[harper44]

....Just ask British Petroleum and crew how taking short cuts and saving money worked out for them.

You're going to compare the BP disaster to not renewing a 5 year contract for a single WWII era plane?? Get real.

And people actually think Christy Clark has anything to do with these decisions? Could you imagine how busy this woman would be if she had to micromanage every gov't ministry. The people making these decisions aren't even party politicians for Christ sake, they're staffers, highly paid industry pros. Christy Clark knows as little about fighting forest fires as some of you guys seem to know about how gov't works. Why would she purposely undermine professional opinion on fighting forest fires?? Cui bono?? Lose the tinfoil hats!



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[SpringVelocity]

You're going to compare the BP disaster to not renewing a 5 year contract for a single WWII era plane?? Get real.

And people actually think Christy Clark has anything to do with these decisions? Could you imagine how busy this woman would be if she had to micromanage every gov't ministry. The people making these decisions aren't even party politicians for Christ sake, they're staffers, highly paid industry pros. Christy Clark knows as little about fighting forest fires as some of you guys seem to know about how gov't works. Why would she purposely undermine professional opinion on fighting forest fires?? Cui bono?? Lose the tinfoil hats!



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It will go up and it really isn't your decision anyway, or is it my own. Listen your entitled to your opinion but I personally dont believe anything the government tells me. Been doing it to long and now look at our environment, fish stocks, forestry etc. My community is fighting in court with this government just so I can have clean drinking water. Oh yeah the true experts that speak for the people.

Governments dont work in best interests of people they work in interests of money, and who pays the highest campaign donation so they can get re-elected. This bomber can fulfill a role in Alberni. The 5 year contract that wont happen we all know that. Just let them get it in the air. If it fails then you can sit back laughing in the government office.

And saying Christy Clark is too busy what do you know the schedule?. What a joke she seems to have lots of time making up stupid yoga days and tweeting on her phone. Maybe she should be more involved the entire province is in trouble with this drought...We are going to see more fires on the island and mainland. Sick of these guys getting elected and just sitting on iphone/smartphone tweeting.

I am out of this debate... Good luck to the crew at tanker base.

 

[GLG]

Get all the tools out of the box for this year, we don't have much choice.

 

[harper44]

Look man. I'm glad it's going up to help out. I've got no problem with that. I wish Coulson could keep the plane available on standby for these types of situations for the rest of time. But I respect the decision of the BC gov't not to renew a 5 year take-or-pay contract for a tool that is underutilizes. And at the same time, I respect The Coulson group's decision not to maintain the plane without a signed contract, he has to keep his head above water too.


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[bigdogeh]

It will go up and it really isn't your decision anyway, or is it my own. Listen your entitled to your opinion but I personally dont believe anything the government tells me. Been doing it to long and now look at our environment, fish stocks, forestry etc. My community is fighting in court with this government just so I can have clean drinking water. Oh yeah the true experts that speak for the people.

Governments dont work in best interests of people they work in interests of money, and who pays the highest campaign donation so they can get re-elected. This bomber can fulfill a role in Alberni. The 5 year contract that wont happen we all know that. Just let them get it in the air. If it fails then you can sit back laughing in the government office.

And saying Christy Clark is too busy what do you know the schedule?. What a joke she seems to have lots of time making up stupid yoga days and tweeting on her phone. Maybe she should be more involved the entire province is in trouble with this drought...We are going to see more fires on the island and mainland. Sick of these guys getting elected and just sitting on iphone/smartphone tweeting.

I am out of this debate... Good luck to the crew at tanker base.

View attachment 19006View attachment 19007

I feel the same as you SV. I have a hard time trusting anything the gov says as they've destroyed that trust. Many may disagree but personally I think the bomber has a place in our province for fighting fires. I look at it this way. you can throw a bucket of water on a campfire once every five minutes or throw a glass of water on it once every couple minutes... both will eventually get the job done. but you may have a better chance of the fire spreading less if you can hit it with a large quantity of water all at once. why not use everything at our disposal? The money for the firefighting budget is peanuts compared to the money they're giving petronas in tax breaks (ie taxes we'll pay down the road rather than petronas) I also wouldn't be suprised to hear that the companies running the choppers and other expensive machinery are the companies giving the largest "donations" to the present liberal government.... I won't bother checking but that's the way this government has always acted so I can't see them changing. there will be change in the next election though. they've pretty much guaranteed that for themselves.

 

[Sir Reel]

There's some truth in that SR, but things are more nuanced these days in response to those concerns. There has been a shift toward containment of fires rather than direct suppression with water, although if homes are threatened it's anything goes. What you see more of these days is air tankers and heavy equipment combining to create fire breaks well away from the flame front where crews can work more safely. It's true that we mostly stop small lightning caused fires from growing more than a few metres, but the human caused fires balance that out to some degree. That is also one of the reasons why clear cutting is allowed by the ministry - they usually require complete removal of all trees, including the older 'degenerate' trees that represent little commercial value but substantial fuel load.

Some good comments Sly. Here is what I am talking more about and what environmentalist think should happen more often.

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-143760-3-.htm#143760

Photo: Contributed - Courtney Thompson

Off-season prescribed burns east of Lake Kookanusa in 2013 played a major role in the successful containment of a wildfire this week.
B.C. Wildfire Services announced today the fire is 100 per cent contained and an evacuation order for 200 people near Kragmont has been lifted.
Fire information officer Jordan Turner credited the burns from two years ago as vital to the success.
“That area has already been made into a defensible position,” Turner said. “We were able to focus resources on stopping the fire from growing toward any properties.”
The off-season burns are held near communities to protect homes when fire season eventually hits.
“These prescribed fires that are put up on the landscape, they get rid of a lot of the fuel load, and a lot of the things that make wildfires dangerous around communities,” Turner said.
In addition to removing fuel, like fallen logs and undergrowth, the prescribed burn improves wildlife habitat, Turner said.
“(Elk and deer) need open range, kind of grazing areas,” he said. “A large herd of elk, without a kind of open range that would naturally be in the area, they have trouble moving through the forest.”

 

[Seafever]

I would guess that since Coulson doesn't have a contract with the government there a few hoops to jump through before you can send a Mars up to fight a fire.

Public liability issues......anybody gets injured during the process there could be major complications..

Insurance?

Certification to fly?

Property damage issues?.....if property not connected to the fire was inadvertantly damaged during firefight.....

etc etc etc ......

Gotta have all the ducks in a row before you turn the key........

 

[Pineapple Express]

Just read that the province has agreed to a one month deal to get the Mars flying

 

[Sir Reel]

Here are some interesting facts about the Mars. Is from the BC government news website

https://news.gov.bc.ca/factsheets/factsheet-bcs-airtanker-fleet-and-the-martin-mars

<!-- AddThis Button END -->
<!--googleon: all--> <!-- ======================= Event Story Content ============================= --> General comments:

• The BC Wildfire Service works continually to ensure that the most appropriate equipment is available to protect our natural resources and communities from wildfire risks.
• It's important to note that aircraft do not put out wildfires; ground crews do.
• The BC Wildfire Service typically responds to an average of about 2,000 fires every year throughout the province. In an average season, airtankers conduct about 600 missions.
• The province can bring in additional contract helicopters as needed. Over 100 helicopters are currently helping to fight wildfires throughout B.C.
• The provincial aircraft fleet is repositioned constantly during the fire season to be ready for anticipated fire starts in high-risk regions. This strategic prepositioning reduces firefighting costs overall.
• Depending on the level of wildfire activity in the province, the government may request assistance from other jurisdictions through the Mutual Aid Resources Sharing Agreement, which allows for the movement and sharing of firefighting resources (including aircraft) between B.C. and other provinces and territories.

Current status of the Martin Mars:

• Given the current wildfire situation, the B.C. government is reviewing additional resources that could contribute to firefighting efforts during this extremely active fire season.
• The BC Wildfire Service has added the Martin Mars to a master standing offer between the B.C. government and the Coulson Group.
• While there are more cost-effective options available, in the right circumstances, the Martin Mars could be called on to supplement B.C.'s airtanker fleet.
• The government is required to give the Coulson Group three days' notice to use the Martin Mars. It is currently not available for use in B.C. from July 20 to July 31, 2015.
• The Coulson Group, the company that operates the Martin Mars, did not respond to the Province's offer of a "call when needed" arrangement for the 2014 fire season.

Air Tractor AT-802F "Fire Boss" amphibious airtankers:

• In the spring of 2014, the Province acquired the contracted services of four Air Tractor AT-802F "Fire Boss" amphibious airtankers that can drop water, foam or retardant on a fire.
• The Fire Boss aircraft are versatile, efficient and effective in suppressing B.C.'s wildfires.
• The Fire Boss can skim up to 3,025 litres of water in 15 seconds from over 1,700 water bodies in B.C. and land at airports, including the Province's 17 airtanker bases. This airtanker group also includes a Cessna Grand Caravan bird dog aircraft.
• The average turnaround time for the Fire Bosses is seven minutes.
• The targeting accuracy of the Fire Boss allows firefighting crews to take a more aggressive approach to fighting a wildfire and allows skimming aircraft to work in conjunction with retardant-delivering airtankers.
• The BC Wildfire Service has the option to split up the Fire Boss group and attack multiple targets at once. This is especially valuable when fighting a series of fires sparked by intense lighting storms.
• If one of the Fire Boss aircraft were to experience mechanical difficulties, the other three aircraft in the group would remain in service.
• The Fire Boss is just one type of airtanker. Including these new aircraft, the BC Wildfire Service has the following 31 aircraft available for fighting wildfires in B.C.: 16 airtankers, 8 bird dogs, 6 medium-lift helicopters and 1 light-lift helicopter on long-term contract.

Martin Mars airtanker:

• From 2007 to 2013, the Martin Mars was only deployed on 20 wildfires, or about 0.5 per cent of the 3,476 airtanker missions flown during that period (at a cost of about $4.8 million).
• Because of its size, the Martin Mars can only land on and scoop up water from about 113 bodies of water in B.C.
• Because of its relatively slow airspeed and large size, the Martin Mars is more difficult to integrate into B.C.'s firefighting operations, including close air support for firefighters on the ground.
• Many airtankers can drop long-term fire retardant on a wildfire to slow its growth and allow ground crews to safely contain it. This ability is critical in B.C.'s terrain and firefighting conditions. The Martin Mars cannot drop long-term fire retardant.
• The Martin Mars' large drop pattern can sometimes make it unsafe to use when providing close air support for ground crews. Firefighters on the ground have to stop work until the drops are completed, which may increase the risk of a fire escaping during the critical initial attack stage.
• Although the Martin Mars has a tank capacity of 27,250 litres, the average drop volume is 19,000 litres, with an average turnaround time of 19 minutes.
• The ability to reposition the Martin Mars is limited due to its limited airspeed, its need to land on larger bodies of water, its inability to land at airports and its refuelling requirements when it's working away from its primary base.
• Repositioning the Martin Mars is more challenging than repositioning smaller aircraft because of the significant logistical support that it requires.

Costs:

• The Province does not own any fixed wing aircraft or helicopters. The four Fire Bosses are operated by Conair Group of Abbotsford for $2.5 million per fire season, plus an hourly flying rate. This contract provides for the use of all four airtankers and a bird dog aircraft for 100 days per fire season.
• If the Martin Mars is used in the 2015 fire season, the standby cost would be $40,000 per day and $10,000 per hour of flying time. The Province would also pay for the fuel, which would be about $5,000 per hour.
• The hourly operating rate (including fuel) for all four Fire Bosses combined is $8,400 per hour less than that of the single Martin Mars. The daily availability costs for the combined four Fire Boss aircraft is half that of the Martin Mars.
• The "cost per litre delivered" on the West Kelowna by the Fire Boss in July 2014 averaged $0.19 per litre. In 2003, the Martin Mars cost per litre on the Kelowna fire was $0.63 per litre. The historic average cost per litre for the Martin Mars is $0.48 per litre.
• The cost of fuel per hour for all four Fire Bosses combined is less than half the cost of fuel per hour for the single Martin Mars.
• The cost of repositioning four new Fire Bosses combined is about $1,200 per day. The cost to reposition the Mars was about $12,000 per day, or 10 times that amount.
• When drawing a comparison between the Martin Mars and the Fire Bosses that worked the fires in Kelowna in 2003 and in West Kelowna in 2014 respectively, the Fire Bosses delivered more volume and were more cost-effective than the Martin Mars. On the 2014 Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.
• The Martin Mars' operational limitations make it difficult to sell surplus availability of the aircraft through mutual aid agreements. In contrast, Fire Boss aircraft were deployed outside the province in 2014 and 2015 when they were not immediately required in B.C.

 

[salmon slayer]

Interesting facts on the viability of a dinosaur from the past. The money could be used on more resources that are more flexible and adaptable to situations as they arise.


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[Seafever]

Has anyone read the "Mars Rebuttal" article posted here a few posts back?
I did...and it seems to me the Clark government speaks with forked tongue........

 

[ziggy]

Hey maybe the could buy a couple of well used Sea King helicopters? Bet they will be going cheap pretty soon!

 

[triplenickel]

Not being able to drop retardant in this heat and low humidity is a significant issue.

 

[sly_karma]

The rebuttal paper completely ignores retardant. It's a major part of the current fire fighting doctrine and has been for over a decade, but it's not mentioned. Why? Mars can't drop retardant, that's why. Coulson is asking the govt to seriously modify its strategy to make room for his one plane that no longer fits in. There are times when it can be of use, but not often enough. It'll be needed this year because it's gonna be a doozy. Mars' role for the next few years will be occasional outings on seriously big fires in moderate terrain, anywhere in nth america when someone calls. Those only come up occasionally - thank god.

 

[walleyes]

You're going to compare the BP disaster to not renewing a 5 year contract for a single WWII era plane?? Get real.

And people actually think Christy Clark has anything to do with these decisions? Could you imagine how busy this woman would be if she had to micromanage every gov't ministry. The people making these decisions aren't even party politicians for Christ sake, they're staffers, highly paid industry pros. Christy Clark knows as little about fighting forest fires as some of you guys seem to know about how gov't works. Why would she purposely undermine professional opinion on fighting forest fires?? Cui bono?? Lose the tinfoil hats!



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Lol,, I like this one you nailed it.. Funny thing is it's usually those that complain the most that couldn't manage a night shift at a Mcdonalds never mind a government. Yet they sure are quick to make up innuendos and lies about those that do lead..

Oh well,, hope we get rain soon in all our provinces as this is one bad year.

 

[GLG]

The rebuttal paper completely ignores retardant. It's a major part of the current fire fighting doctrine and has been for over a decade, but it's not mentioned. Why? Mars can't drop retardant, that's why.

Is retardant the same as foam or gel?

http://www.martinmars.com/firefighting.htm

(This is not directed to sly_karma.)
A couple of things that I noticed when reading some of the news reports from the fire this year.
1) BC ran out of money on the fire budget 2 days into the summer. Perhaps they should check with EC and take their advice as to what is happening with the climate / weather. Or .... Someone is either incompetent at the budget office or they fudged the numbers to make the budget look better then it should.
2) If you could get 4 Fireboss aircraft for less then half the price of the Mars then why don't we have 8 Fireboss aircraft? If they are so darn good why don't we have more of them? You think the danger is going to get worse in the future or are we all in denial.

 

[SpringVelocity]

The Abbotsford company that beat the Mars bomber out of a provincial firefighting contract now has the province's former air tanker program head on its payroll.

Conair is also a big supporter of the reigning Liberal party, donating $92,750 to the B.C. Liberals since 2006. That's over 10 times the $8,450 given to the Liberals by the losing bid opponent Coulson Flying Tankers.

After years of dousing forest fires in British Columbia, the province did not renew a contract with Coulson Flying Tankers to use the Hawaii Mars water bomber this summer. Instead four smaller Fire Boss planes were chosen from Conair to provide firefighting crews with air support.

Conair has worked with the province to fight forest fires since 1969, and this connection included a top-level government employee moving his experience over to the Abbotsford company in 2013 - the same year the province decided to begin contracting Conair's Fire Boss planes. After a 36-year career of handling fires with the B.C. Forestry Service, Jeff Berry joined Conair to become manager of business development. From 1996 to 2013 Berry was head of the province's air tanker program.

Conair did not provide comment on the political contributions or the hiring Berry by the Times' press deadline, but the company's website explains Berry's experience before joining the aviation company.

"Jeff lead a team of fire professionals in developing what is now considered a benchmark centralized air tanker program," reads a message on Conair's website. "As a result of his work, and on behalf of his team, Jeff accepted the Aviation Space Technology Laurel Award for operations in 2004."

Alberni-Pacific Rim MLA Scott Fraser questioned the legality of Berry's sudden move to the private sector. The NDP elected representative said that senior managers in the provincial government are restricted from joining private companies immediately after leaving the public service, according to B.C.'s Public Service Act. Fraser has brought up the issue in B.C.'s legislature.

"Government's response to me was that he was not considered a senior manager," said Fraser. "If the Public Service Act is that loose - that someone who is in a decision-making position can then just move right over to the private sector - then they need to change that law."

Fraser noted that while it's common for private companies to donate money to political parties, the amount given by Conair brings "the potential appearance of a conflict" with the province's decision in awarding the Fire Boss contract.

According to the BC Liberal Party, all laws were followed in accepting Conair's contributions over the years.

"The BC Liberal Party follows all rules as set out by Elections BC around the disclosure of political donations," read a statement by the party.

Although the Mars bomber has been contracted by the province since 2007, B.C.'s Wildfire Management Branch said the Fire Boss planes best suit its needs for this forest fire season. Last fall the province put out a request for proposals for the services of four amphibious air takers and one smaller bird dog plane for support.

This is exactly what Conair had to offer, and the contract was award to the Abbotsford company.

In a detailed fact sheet released last week, the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations defended the decision to contract the Fire Boss planes instead of the Mars bomber.

"Over the past six weeks the new Fire Boss aircraft have actioned more fires than the Martin Mars did in six years," stated the ministry. "The new Fire Boss aircraft are versatile, efficient and effective in suppressing B.C.'s wildfires. As of July 21, the Fire Bosses had flown 230 hours suppressing fires in B.C., dropping more than 2 million litres of suppressant on wildfires."

Like the more than 18,000 names on a petition sent to the premier requesting that the Mars bomber be back into service, Fraser wonders why the massive plane isn't being used this summer.

"We're training young people so that we can drop them into fire zones in this province. It's a very dangerous job, often they're students," Fraser said. "We need all the tools, because the ultimate sacrifice in not having those tools will be those young people that we put into harm's way."

Coulson Flying Tankers CEO Wayne Coulson opted not to comment on the issue.
- See more at: http://www.avtimes.net/news/local-n...conair-payroll-1.1265616#sthash.5Ml6NXTA.dpuf

 

[ziggy]

Is retardant the same as foam or gel?

http://www.martinmars.com/firefighting.htm

(This is not directed to sly_karma.)
A couple of things that I noticed when reading some of the news reports from the fire this year.
1) BC ran out of money on the fire budget 2 days into the summer. Perhaps they should check with EC and take their advice as to what is happening with the climate / weather. Or .... Someone is either incompetent at the budget office or they fudged the numbers to make the budget look better then it should.
2) If you could get 4 Fireboss aircraft for less then half the price of the Mars then why don't we have 8 Fireboss aircraft? If they are so darn good why don't we have more of them? You think the danger is going to get worse in the future or are we all in denial.

I guess you could use the same argument for snow removal. How many times in bad years have cities gone over budget? The public tends to always want to know why additional resources aren't available in times of need, but prefers social programs etc. over them when not needed. If we had a wet spring and the government announced that it was going to pay Coulson a large sum of money to have vintage aircraft on standby, for the next five years, just in case, the public would howl. All the special interest groups would claim that Coulson had some Liberal contacts who were giving him a sweetheart deal, because obviously ( to them) any fool could see their need was great and hey, what are the odds these expensive planes on standby contract will even be used ?Emergency services, much like the military, are a complete waste of money, until of course you need them, then there is never enough! You can't have it both ways

 

[GLG]

I guess you could use the same argument for snow removal. How many times in bad years have cities gone over budget? The public tends to always want to know why additional resources aren't available in times of need, but prefers social programs etc. over them when not needed. If we had a wet spring and the government announced that it was going to pay Coulson a large sum of money to have vintage aircraft on standby, for the next five years, just in case, the public would howl. All the special interest groups would claim that Coulson had some Liberal contacts who were giving him a sweetheart deal, because obviously ( to them) any fool could see their need was great and hey, what are the odds these expensive planes on standby contract will even be used ?Emergency services, much like the military, are a complete waste of money, until of course you need them, then there is never enough! You can't have it both ways

My comment was not about a five year deal with the Mars but how they budget for this fire season. My understanding is they had a budget of 63 million. Clearly they are in denial with history. I expect better from our leaders .......

http://bcwildfire.ca/history/average.htm

The number of wildfires that occur on average every year in British Columbia is usually given as 2,000, with half caused by people and half caused by lightning. Because this is an average, it is different every year, and therefore this generalization is never totally accurate.
The current 10-year average, taken from 2004 to 2013, is 1,847 fires, 38.5% (or 712) caused by people and 61.5% (or 1135) caused by lightning.
The following table shows the number and percentage of people and lightning-caused fires for last year and the 10 preceeding years.

Year	Total Fires	Total Hectares	Total Cost (millions)	Average Hectares per Fire	People-Caused	Lightning-Caused
2014	1484	369,169	$297.9	248.8	664	(44.8%)	819	(55.2%)
2013	1861	18,298	$122.2	9.8	564	(30.3%)	1297	(69.7%)
2012	1649	102,122	$133.6	61.9	708	(42.9%)	941	(57.1%)
2011	653	12,604	$53.5	19.3	444	(68%)	209	(32%)
2010	1672	337,149	$212.2	201.6	680	(40.7%)	992	(59.3%)
2009	3064	247,419	$382.1	80.8	881	(28.8%)	2183	(71.2%)
2008	2023	13,240	$82.1	6.5	848	(41.9%)	1175	(58.1%)
2007	1606	29,440	$98.8	18.3	687	(42.8%)	919	(57.2%)
2006	2570	139,265	$159.0	54.2	1034	(40.2%)	1536	(59.8%)
2005	976	34,588	$47.2	35.4	591	(60.6%)	385	(39.4%)
2004	2394	220,518	$164.6	92.1	681	(28.4%)	1713	(71.6%)
Average *	1847	115,464	$145.5	58.0	710.1	39.0%	1106.3	61.0%

<colgroup><col><col span="8" align="right"></colgroup><tbody>
</tbody>

* The average does not include the most recent year.
Figures for the most recent fire season are preliminary estimates.

 

[Seafever]

In the rebuttal paper it says that that the Mars can mix it's own gel while in the air...which the Fireboss can't do...the Fireboss has to go back to the airport.

And it also shows that there are plenty of big lakes where the Mars can scoop and land on around the province.....not very far away from most fires.......

The government seems to have manipulated the actual numbers on cost/efficiency and several other things from what I'm reading.......