Mars Water Bomber - Sign petition to ReInstate Bomber For 5 more Years Across BC
- Thread starter SpringVelocity
- Start date
Big Green Machine
Well-Known Member
I live in the fire ravaged Okanagan, I want my tax dollars going to more useful for my region fire fighting aircraft.
Kildonan
Well-Known Member
I read this today at:
http://www.newsroom.gov.bc.ca/minis...-bcs-airtanker-fleet-and-the-martin-mars.html
General comments:
The Wildfire Management Branch continually works to ensure that the most appropriate equipment is available to protect B.C. communities from wildfire risks.
The Wildfire Management Branch typically responds to 2,000 fires every year across the province. In an average season, airtankers conduct over 600 missions.
It's important to note that aircraft do not put out wildfires, ground crews do.
Many airtankers can drop long-term fire retardant on a wildfire to slow its growth and allow ground crews to safely contain it.
The Martin Mars cannot drop long-term fire retardant, which is critical in B.C.'s terrain and firefighting conditions.
In spring 2014, the Province acquired the contracted services of four Air Tractor AT-802F "Fire Boss" amphibious airtankers that can drop water, foam or retardant on a fire. They can skim up to 3,025 litres of water in 15 seconds from over 1,700 water bodies in B.C. and land at airports, including the Province's 17 airtanker bases. This airtanker group also includes a Cessna Grand Caravan bird dog aircraft.
Because of its size, the Martin Mars can only land on and scoop up water from about 113 bodies of water in B.C.
From 2007 to 2013, the Martin Mars was only deployed on 20 wildfires, or about 0.5 per cent of the 3,476 airtanker missions flown during that period (at a cost of about $4.8 million).
When drawing a comparison between the Martin Mars and the Fire Bosses that worked the fires in Kelowna in 2003 and in West Kelowna in 2014 respectively, the Fire Bosses delivered more volume and were more cost-effective than the Martin Mars. On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.
The Coulson Group, the company that operates the Martin Mars, did not respond to the Province's offer of an "as when needed" contract for the 2014 fire season.
Over the past six weeks, the new Fire Boss aircraft have actioned more fires than the Martin Mars did in six years.
The Fire Boss is just one type of airtanker. Including these new aircraft, the Wildfire Management Branch has the following 31 aircraft available for fighting wildfires in B.C.: 16 airtankers, 8 bird dogs, 6 medium-lift helicopters and 1 light-lift helicopter on long-term contract.
The province can bring in additional contract helicopters as needed. Over 100 helicopters are currently helping to fight wildfires throughout B.C.
Depending on the level of wildfire activity in the province, the government may request assistance from other jurisdictions through the Mutual Aid Resources Sharing Agreement, which allows for the movement and sharing of firefighting resources (including aircraft) between B.C. and other provinces and territories.
Operations and technical capabilities:
The targeting accuracy of the Fire Boss allows firefighting crews to take a more aggressive approach to fighting a wildfire.
If one of the Fire Boss aircraft were to experience mechanical difficulties, the other three aircraft in the group would remain in service.
There is only one Martin Mars in B.C. The mechanical failure rate of the piston engines used by the Martin Mars is much greater than that of modern turbine engines.
Because of its relatively slow airspeed and large size, the Martin Mars is more difficult to integrate into B.C.'s firefighting operations, including close air support for firefighters on the ground.
The Martin Mars' large drop pattern can sometimes make it unsafe to use when providing close air support for ground crews. Firefighters on the ground have to stop work until drops are completed, which may increase the risk of a fire escaping during the critical initial attack stage.
Although the Martin Mars has a tank capacity of 27,250 litres, the average drop volume is 19,000 litres with an average turnaround time of 19 minutes. The average turnaround time for the Fire Bosses is seven minutes.
The provincial aircraft fleet must be repositioned constantly during the fire season to be ready for anticipated fire starts in high-risk regions. This strategic prepositioning reduces firefighting costs overall.
The ability to reposition the Martin Mars is limited due to its limited airspeed, its need to land on larger bodies of water, its inability to land at airports and its refuelling requirements when it's working away from its primary base at Sproat Lake.
Repositioning the Martin Mars is more challenging than repositioning smaller aircraft because of the significant logistical support that it requires.
The Wildfire Management Branch has the option to split up the Fire Boss group and attack multiple targets at once. This is especially valuable when fighting a series of fires sparked by intense lighting storms.
The new Fire Boss aircraft are versatile, efficient and effective in suppressing B.C.'s wildfires. As of July 21, the Fire Bosses had flown 230 hours suppressing fires in B.C., dropping more than two million litres of suppressant on wildfires.
Costs:
The Province does not own any fixed wing aircraft or helicopters. The four new Fire Bosses are operated by Conair Group of Abbotsford for $2.5 million per fire season, plus an hourly flying rate. This contract provides for the use of all four airtankers and a bird dog aircraft for 100 days per fire season.
In 2013, when the Wildfire Management Branch last used the Martin Mars, the season rate was $672,300 with a flying time cost of $4,000 per hour for the first 45 hours and $18,800 per hour for any additional hours. This rate does not include fuel.
The hourly operating rate (including fuel) for all four Fire Bosses combined is $2,000 per hour less than that of the single Martin Mars. This cost difference becomes a $17,000-per-hour disparity if the Martin Mars was flown over 45 hours per year.
The "cost per litre delivered" on the West Kelowna by the Fire Boss in July averaged $0.19 per litre. In 2003, the Martin Mars cost per litre on the Kelowna fire was $0.63 per litre. The historic average cost per litre for the Martin Mars is $0.48 per litre.
The cost of fuel per hour for all four Fire Bosses combined is less than half the cost of fuel per hour for the single Martin Mars.
The cost of repositioning four new Fire Bosses combined is about $1,200 per day. The cost to reposition the Mars was about $12,000 per day, or 10 times that amount.
The Martin Mars' operational limitations make it difficult to sell surplus availability of this aircraft through mutual aid agreements. In contrast, the Fire Boss aircraft have already been in demand for deployment outside of B.C. earlier this season when they were not needed here. The Fire Bosses were deployed to the Northwest Territories earlier this summer, which recovered $287,000 for the Province.
http://www.newsroom.gov.bc.ca/minis...-bcs-airtanker-fleet-and-the-martin-mars.html
General comments:
The Wildfire Management Branch continually works to ensure that the most appropriate equipment is available to protect B.C. communities from wildfire risks.
The Wildfire Management Branch typically responds to 2,000 fires every year across the province. In an average season, airtankers conduct over 600 missions.
It's important to note that aircraft do not put out wildfires, ground crews do.
Many airtankers can drop long-term fire retardant on a wildfire to slow its growth and allow ground crews to safely contain it.
The Martin Mars cannot drop long-term fire retardant, which is critical in B.C.'s terrain and firefighting conditions.
In spring 2014, the Province acquired the contracted services of four Air Tractor AT-802F "Fire Boss" amphibious airtankers that can drop water, foam or retardant on a fire. They can skim up to 3,025 litres of water in 15 seconds from over 1,700 water bodies in B.C. and land at airports, including the Province's 17 airtanker bases. This airtanker group also includes a Cessna Grand Caravan bird dog aircraft.
Because of its size, the Martin Mars can only land on and scoop up water from about 113 bodies of water in B.C.
From 2007 to 2013, the Martin Mars was only deployed on 20 wildfires, or about 0.5 per cent of the 3,476 airtanker missions flown during that period (at a cost of about $4.8 million).
When drawing a comparison between the Martin Mars and the Fire Bosses that worked the fires in Kelowna in 2003 and in West Kelowna in 2014 respectively, the Fire Bosses delivered more volume and were more cost-effective than the Martin Mars. On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.
The Coulson Group, the company that operates the Martin Mars, did not respond to the Province's offer of an "as when needed" contract for the 2014 fire season.
Over the past six weeks, the new Fire Boss aircraft have actioned more fires than the Martin Mars did in six years.
The Fire Boss is just one type of airtanker. Including these new aircraft, the Wildfire Management Branch has the following 31 aircraft available for fighting wildfires in B.C.: 16 airtankers, 8 bird dogs, 6 medium-lift helicopters and 1 light-lift helicopter on long-term contract.
The province can bring in additional contract helicopters as needed. Over 100 helicopters are currently helping to fight wildfires throughout B.C.
Depending on the level of wildfire activity in the province, the government may request assistance from other jurisdictions through the Mutual Aid Resources Sharing Agreement, which allows for the movement and sharing of firefighting resources (including aircraft) between B.C. and other provinces and territories.
Operations and technical capabilities:
The targeting accuracy of the Fire Boss allows firefighting crews to take a more aggressive approach to fighting a wildfire.
If one of the Fire Boss aircraft were to experience mechanical difficulties, the other three aircraft in the group would remain in service.
There is only one Martin Mars in B.C. The mechanical failure rate of the piston engines used by the Martin Mars is much greater than that of modern turbine engines.
Because of its relatively slow airspeed and large size, the Martin Mars is more difficult to integrate into B.C.'s firefighting operations, including close air support for firefighters on the ground.
The Martin Mars' large drop pattern can sometimes make it unsafe to use when providing close air support for ground crews. Firefighters on the ground have to stop work until drops are completed, which may increase the risk of a fire escaping during the critical initial attack stage.
Although the Martin Mars has a tank capacity of 27,250 litres, the average drop volume is 19,000 litres with an average turnaround time of 19 minutes. The average turnaround time for the Fire Bosses is seven minutes.
The provincial aircraft fleet must be repositioned constantly during the fire season to be ready for anticipated fire starts in high-risk regions. This strategic prepositioning reduces firefighting costs overall.
The ability to reposition the Martin Mars is limited due to its limited airspeed, its need to land on larger bodies of water, its inability to land at airports and its refuelling requirements when it's working away from its primary base at Sproat Lake.
Repositioning the Martin Mars is more challenging than repositioning smaller aircraft because of the significant logistical support that it requires.
The Wildfire Management Branch has the option to split up the Fire Boss group and attack multiple targets at once. This is especially valuable when fighting a series of fires sparked by intense lighting storms.
The new Fire Boss aircraft are versatile, efficient and effective in suppressing B.C.'s wildfires. As of July 21, the Fire Bosses had flown 230 hours suppressing fires in B.C., dropping more than two million litres of suppressant on wildfires.
Costs:
The Province does not own any fixed wing aircraft or helicopters. The four new Fire Bosses are operated by Conair Group of Abbotsford for $2.5 million per fire season, plus an hourly flying rate. This contract provides for the use of all four airtankers and a bird dog aircraft for 100 days per fire season.
In 2013, when the Wildfire Management Branch last used the Martin Mars, the season rate was $672,300 with a flying time cost of $4,000 per hour for the first 45 hours and $18,800 per hour for any additional hours. This rate does not include fuel.
The hourly operating rate (including fuel) for all four Fire Bosses combined is $2,000 per hour less than that of the single Martin Mars. This cost difference becomes a $17,000-per-hour disparity if the Martin Mars was flown over 45 hours per year.
The "cost per litre delivered" on the West Kelowna by the Fire Boss in July averaged $0.19 per litre. In 2003, the Martin Mars cost per litre on the Kelowna fire was $0.63 per litre. The historic average cost per litre for the Martin Mars is $0.48 per litre.
The cost of fuel per hour for all four Fire Bosses combined is less than half the cost of fuel per hour for the single Martin Mars.
The cost of repositioning four new Fire Bosses combined is about $1,200 per day. The cost to reposition the Mars was about $12,000 per day, or 10 times that amount.
The Martin Mars' operational limitations make it difficult to sell surplus availability of this aircraft through mutual aid agreements. In contrast, the Fire Boss aircraft have already been in demand for deployment outside of B.C. earlier this season when they were not needed here. The Fire Bosses were deployed to the Northwest Territories earlier this summer, which recovered $287,000 for the Province.
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Huh? Homework? Kildonan is quoting a ministry response of website. What you think they wouldn't have a response? You know I respect all that made there positions clear. Not one was really were disrespectful when they posted. That is the beauty we all have opinions. Even the 18,000 that signed are entitled to want the aircraft back and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But telling people are stupid is just plain rude.
Then I get to the last post bigbruce...But your only here to cause trouble. You do it over and over on all threads and every topic. You don't know what I do, who I know etc. But truthfully I think its easier to insult someone in an armchair on keyboard. If that is what gets you off than good luck with that.
I stand by what I said on here and the intention of first post was to get people to sign well mission accomplished. If she goes up she goes up if not then it is meant to be. But please leave the insults off here guys that really isn't fair.
Last edited by a moderator:
bigbruce
Crew Member
Geez, SV - that's a bit harsh. I've looked back over a lot of my posts on a lot of threads and I can't find instances of my posting for the purpose of "causing trouble".
Frankly, I would have preferred to have had this conversation face to face that as I think I might have been able to get my point of view across more effectively had we been discussing this over a beer rather than over a keyboard. The keyboard discussion method obviously has resulted in some ill will towards me on your part. I regret that.
I didn't say the people who signed the petition were stupid - I said the petition was stupid mainly because it played on people's emotions rather than putting out all of the information people should have had to make an informed decision to sign or not. Like many others here, I think the Mars bombers are wonderful old aircraft - but as others have also said, it is past its "sell by" date as an efficient and cost effective tool for fighting forest fires in BC. Our tax dollars need to be wisely spent and spending them on an old plane because people think it would be neat to see flying again just doesn't cut it for me, at least - just as, deep down, I would hope it wouldn't cut it for you either. If the 18,000 people who signed the petition had agreed to contribute towards the cost of putting the Mars in the air I wouldn't have any problem seeing in being used.
And that's it for me on this topic. I'm up at Alder Bay for the next few weeks so should you find yourself in this area, drop by. My boat is a Striper - the Finntastic - and I've got some beer in the fridge in the RV.
Frankly, I would have preferred to have had this conversation face to face that as I think I might have been able to get my point of view across more effectively had we been discussing this over a beer rather than over a keyboard. The keyboard discussion method obviously has resulted in some ill will towards me on your part. I regret that.
I didn't say the people who signed the petition were stupid - I said the petition was stupid mainly because it played on people's emotions rather than putting out all of the information people should have had to make an informed decision to sign or not. Like many others here, I think the Mars bombers are wonderful old aircraft - but as others have also said, it is past its "sell by" date as an efficient and cost effective tool for fighting forest fires in BC. Our tax dollars need to be wisely spent and spending them on an old plane because people think it would be neat to see flying again just doesn't cut it for me, at least - just as, deep down, I would hope it wouldn't cut it for you either. If the 18,000 people who signed the petition had agreed to contribute towards the cost of putting the Mars in the air I wouldn't have any problem seeing in being used.
And that's it for me on this topic. I'm up at Alder Bay for the next few weeks so should you find yourself in this area, drop by. My boat is a Striper - the Finntastic - and I've got some beer in the fridge in the RV.
sly_karma
Crew Member
Good one bigbruce. This is an emotional issue to be sure. I suspect many people who signed the petition took it as a "save the Martin Mars" campaign. Just because the planes are no longer working doesn't mean they'll be scrapped.
It could have all been different if not for WW2. In the 1930s, seaplanes appeared to be the way of the future - runways were expensive to build and the Depression caused designers to take advantage of the ready made runways offered by bodies of water. Seaplanes were the long haul passenger aircraft of the day, Pan Am were using the Boeing 314 for its Clipper seaplane service on trans-Pacific and trans-Atlantic flights by the late 1930s and both the crews and the planes were the best of the best. The Mars aircraft itself was designed as a long range freight aircraft for similar routes. Then came the war and with it the construction of thousands of long runways worldwide to accomodate the heavy bombers developed during the conflict. The postwar aviation industry found a global network of land-based infrastructure ready for use, plus a good selection of surplus military aircraft easily re-purposed for passenger and cargo duty. Through no fault of their own, seaplanes were bypassed in the evolution of the commercial aviation. We're fortunate that the Mars were so good at their alternate application or they'd be long lost to us like most of the other seaplanes of the era. The Boeings weren't re-purposed and none of them survived past 1951.
It could have all been different if not for WW2. In the 1930s, seaplanes appeared to be the way of the future - runways were expensive to build and the Depression caused designers to take advantage of the ready made runways offered by bodies of water. Seaplanes were the long haul passenger aircraft of the day, Pan Am were using the Boeing 314 for its Clipper seaplane service on trans-Pacific and trans-Atlantic flights by the late 1930s and both the crews and the planes were the best of the best. The Mars aircraft itself was designed as a long range freight aircraft for similar routes. Then came the war and with it the construction of thousands of long runways worldwide to accomodate the heavy bombers developed during the conflict. The postwar aviation industry found a global network of land-based infrastructure ready for use, plus a good selection of surplus military aircraft easily re-purposed for passenger and cargo duty. Through no fault of their own, seaplanes were bypassed in the evolution of the commercial aviation. We're fortunate that the Mars were so good at their alternate application or they'd be long lost to us like most of the other seaplanes of the era. The Boeings weren't re-purposed and none of them survived past 1951.
Seafever
Well-Known Member
According to Wiki:-...
On Aug 23,2012, Coulson said he would fly the Philippine Mars (due to it not being used for 5 years) to the national Naval Aviation Museum at the Naval Air Station at Pensacola, Florida to become a static exhibit. It was to be repainted in it's original Navy colors.
But as of 2014 it hasn't happened.
On Aug 23,2012, Coulson said he would fly the Philippine Mars (due to it not being used for 5 years) to the national Naval Aviation Museum at the Naval Air Station at Pensacola, Florida to become a static exhibit. It was to be repainted in it's original Navy colors.
But as of 2014 it hasn't happened.
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
It was repainted and its waiting paperwork to fly there last heard... Was in papers and posted publicly on website...
sammyslabber
Active Member
Mars Water bomber petition containing 19k signatures has been hand delivered to Christy Clarks W Kelowna constituency [FONT=Gotham SSm A, Gotham SSm B, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]office... 
[/FONT]
http://globalnews.ca/news/1473095/martin-mars-petition-delivered-to-b-c-premier/
[/FONT]http://globalnews.ca/news/1473095/martin-mars-petition-delivered-to-b-c-premier/
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Well it going up on lake today and early morning test runs Wed.... Standby for BC Thursday
http://www.cheknews.ca/martin-mars-waterbombers-108354/
http://www.cheknews.ca/martin-mars-waterbombers-108354/
jeffywestcoast
Well-Known Member
Thanks to the crews working at getting Hawaiian Mars ready to fly , that big bird can make the difference ...
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trophy fisher
Active Member
Heard the contract costs are huge. In excess of $19k per hour plus fuel cost. Ouch. There has to be something more cost effective, just wish other methods were as effective. TF
Some stats and figures on the Mars vs smaller planes.
https://news.gov.bc.ca/factsheets/factsheet-bcs-airtanker-fleet-and-the-martin-mars
https://news.gov.bc.ca/factsheets/factsheet-bcs-airtanker-fleet-and-the-martin-mars