Halibut: Bad News

[Derby]

We need to make time. Not all of us can work 4 months of the year making money hand over fist off the resource then claim poverty, the. Spend the other 8 in meetings making sure there lifestyle is looked after. I get that. But if we don't we can continue to get bent over and ***** on the Internet why things didn't go our way.

Making friends again I see...

 

[lorneparker1]

truth hurts i guess

 

[Fish-Hunter]

If a legal battle is what is required why not creat a society under the society act, and raise funds for the " Recreational Halibut Fisherman's Defense Fund"? Maybe local sporting good stores would promote such a thing.
There might be a lawyer who likes to fish for Halibut, and would take this huge project on. To succeed I think we really need someone to champion our cause, and is not just interested in lining their pockets.

One observation I have is that the more on board in an effort like this, the better. That may mean having an understanding about what the actual legal action would accomplish. By that I mean, if the action will benefit all of the recreational sector, ( guides included ), we would have a better chance at success because we would have more folks promoting it. Stores would be more eager to promote such a thing to raise funds if it supported all of thier customers not just joe weekend warrior, although that would have to be the focus of such an effort.
In my view if Guides were included and would benefit from such a lawsuit to claim ownership of Canada's TAC for citizens first. we would have a much better chance of success as they would be promoting the Fund in their work.

Just my 2 cents. I might be out to lunch on this.

I don't think you are out to lunch at all! In fact I think you are completely correct.

 

[Aces]

40,000 hali anglers. $10 per hali stamp.
3 years to garnish the money if your numbers are correct( I have no clue)
And fish hunter, the guides speaking on this forum from a certain group(not all) dont want litigation. They dont want accountablity. They dont want anything that makes sense. Thats obvious!


We could do nothing. We can ***** on internet forums. Come up with every excuse in the book what we cant whether its money, or time or what every ******** we can convince our self of. Have a group of guides speak for us, who after making the biggest F up in Halibut history this year didnt even consult us, who did it all for them, and who didnt even acknowldge that they didnt consult us or that there thought process was short minded. Then after all of this didnt offer an apology, and bascially just ignored us. Same as before the decision.

Again, what we need is every fricking sportfisherman in at these SFAC meetings. Then we need to DEMAND we are in the "working groups".So that we dont EVER get the wool pulled over eyes again. And if that doesnt work. We go on our own. I am so sick of this ********. Its time to make **** happen.

Lorne

Like what? What do YOU propose??

 

[lorneparker1]

Try this.

Click my name

go to "find all posts"

Read through them. Its in there 500 times.

Lorne

 

[Aces]

Yeah right. All i hear is bitching

 

[Derby]

truth hurts i guess

....Ya you got that right like everything you put out here in internet land... you're the man....

 

[phishbonk]

It sounds like we have one thing in common with the commies.They have Pattison and big buisness pulling the strings and we have Oak bay and big Bob making decisions without consulting us.Bit of a joke i,d sat.

 

[Englishman]

Welll, after a 31 year career in DFO and its various reincarnations, I have to ask you to reconsider that blanket statement. There are MANY guys and gals in DFO that signed on because of a real wish to do well by the resource. But the continuing political interference and butt covering by some mid and upper level bureaucrats has made for a demoralized department . The politicization of DFO ,where the media spin doctors began screening what the civil servants and scientists said to the public, began under Mulroney . It obviously continues to this day, with new lows in press control and screening coming from Harper's sycophants . Just think of the demoralizing effect this has had.

The continuing budget cuts have been another hammer blow-- even if some of the DFO staff wanted to do a good job-- how can they do it if they dont have a budget that will allow them to leave the office???? The hatchery staff are watching the hatchery infrastructure melt around them, but all they get told is "Do more with less". The Enforcement guys are told who to charge and who to leave alone. When was the last time you heard of a Native being charged for ANYTHING????? Cant do that-- must keep the peace at any cost ses Ottawa.

There are lots more examples--- Look at the ISA bs--- Its the senior managers that are lying to save face for the Harper government--- did you know that the quickest way to get fired in the Civil Service is to "Embarrass the Minister" I know that for a fact as I was threatened with dismissal for writing to Ernie Fedoruk in the TC newspaper AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN to tell him he was wrong to buy into the spin that DFO Habitat had a "no net loss" habitat policy . I told him the truth-- Its a SLOW NET LOSS of fish habitat the way DFO works. Otto Langer , retired early Habitat Chief , got so disgusted with the the direction from Ottawa that ignored even their own DFO policy that he quit and joined The Suzuki Foundation. He was eventually given the Conservationist of the Year by the BCWF for his later work for trying to make people aware of the horrible mess that fish habitat was in.

He is not the only example of someone in DFO, past and present, that the system and Ottawa pissed all over for trying to do the right thing.

So next time you might want to use the full choke barrel, rather than the cylinder barrel, when taking aim at a whole department.

Good post CL. From very personal experience you have highlighted what many of us know. That in DFO (and other Government departments) there are many sincere dedicated people working hard at the front lines to make thing better. In general these are highly qualified, well trained scientists and technicians. It is at the political level that all that good work is undone. Ignorant and unqualified politicians make decisions they have no business making and muzzle and rigidly control or hide the information showing findings contrary to their ideologies. Just look at what happened to Dr. Kristi Miller with her ISA findings! This kind of manipulation is endemic to the political system but is in a particularly virulent form with the Conservative Government. Harper himself is member of the Alliance Church and believes as a matter of complete article of faith that the earth is only 6000 years old! In a sane world, holding such an ignorant and superstitious belief, roughly on par with believing the earth is flat or that evil spirits cause infections, the man would be laughed out of the room. In the world of politics the guy is PM of Canada! Against such an ideology driven agenda, the political process cannot work.
On another thread (Title "Is it getting worse?") High Five laments the hopelessness of the political process (meetings, discussions etc.) and how in his view nothing gets accomplished and things are slowly getting worse. This of course supports your point about DFO policy allowing slow habitat loss. Such slow insidious losses and changes over time are the very mark of the “expedient” political decision made here, the “small” compromise made there, which all add up to destroy, over time, what is supposed to be managed and protected.
Which leaves us no option but the legal process. Environmentalists realised this years ago, which is what gave rise to organisations such as Ecojustice, which incidentally, is sustained entirely by voluntary donations. As others have suggested on this thread, we need to do exactly the same thing!

 

[Aces]

Welll, after a 31 year career in DFO and its various reincarnations, I have to ask you to reconsider that blanket statement. There are MANY guys and gals in DFO that signed on because of a real wish to do well by the resource. But the continuing political interference and butt covering by some mid and upper level bureaucrats has made for a demoralized department . The politicization of DFO ,where the media spin doctors began screening what the civil servants and scientists said to the public, began under Mulroney . It obviously continues to this day, with new lows in press control and screening coming from Harper's sycophants . Just think of the demoralizing effect this has had.

The continuing budget cuts have been another hammer blow-- even if some of the DFO staff wanted to do a good job-- how can they do it if they dont have a budget that will allow them to leave the office???? The hatchery staff are watching the hatchery infrastructure melt around them, but all they get told is "Do more with less". The Enforcement guys are told who to charge and who to leave alone. When was the last time you heard of a Native being charged for ANYTHING????? Cant do that-- must keep the peace at any cost ses Ottawa.

There are lots more examples--- Look at the ISA bs--- Its the senior managers that are lying to save face for the Harper government--- did you know that the quickest way to get fired in the Civil Service is to "Embarrass the Minister" I know that for a fact as I was threatened with dismissal for writing to Ernie Fedoruk in the TC newspaper AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN to tell him he was wrong to buy into the spin that DFO Habitat had a "no net loss" habitat policy . I told him the truth-- Its a SLOW NET LOSS of fish habitat the way DFO works. Otto Langer , retired early Habitat Chief , got so disgusted with the the direction from Ottawa that ignored even their own DFO policy that he quit and joined The Suzuki Foundation. He was eventually given the Conservationist of the Year by the BCWF for his later work for trying to make people aware of the horrible mess that fish habitat was in.

He is not the only example of someone in DFO, past and present, that the system and Ottawa pissed all over for trying to do the right thing.

So next time you might want to use the full choke barrel, rather than the cylinder barrel, when taking aim at a whole department.

Well done CL. I have a great relationship with one of our enforcement officers here and he is so frustrated with his chain of command. He would like to do more but can't. He says he feels like he is in a fist fight with one arm tied behind his back. We need to get the support of LOT more MP's than just Dr Lunney at the top before we have any hope of change in Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

 

[Gunsmith]

I hope that everybody here realizes that I have apologized for my error and don't turn me into a football for a slip of the pen.

 

[Englishman]

I am definitely not trying to do that Gunsmith. You are a respected member of this forum as far as I am concerend. What I am trying to do is draw a link between CL's direct experience at DFO, the frustration we are all experiencing with the political process (as described for example by High Fives "Is it getting worse?" thread) and coming to the conclusion that it all points to one thing. This is fight that will have to go to court if we ever want change!

 

[Gunsmith]

Thank you english and holmes as the commies are trying to turn us against each other it can become risky to venture a comment and make a mistake. I do realize that when a big outfit screws up sometimes the hardest working honest people get tarred for that and they do not deserve it.

I am definitely not trying to do that Gunsmith. You are a respected member of this forum as far as I am concerend. What I am trying to do is draw a link between CL's direct experience at DFO, the frustration we are all experiencing with the political process (as described for example by High Fives "Is it getting worse?" thread) and coming to the conclusion that it all points to one thing. This is fight that will have to go to court if we ever want change!

 

[Gunsmith]

Yes I have been one but I am still proud of the effort I made and what I stood for. I found that sometimes corporate directives that could be used properly to mitigate environment concerns are mis-directed by the same "Peter principle idiots".

 

[Cuba Libre]

hey Gunsmith.... no need to ask forgiveness.... my comments are only a small segment in a discussion that has wide implications for our fisheries resource... I recognize the frustration that you feel as I share it too. And you are right about the Peter Principle in a lot of cases....

But realistically, who among us can raise or come up with the MEGA bucks that a Court challenge will take, with no guarantee that things will change.

What is needed is a new crop of MPs that will LISTEN to those who elect them........ not someone like John Duncan who has let us down badly on the North Island

 

[Derby]

It sounds like we have one thing in common with the commies.They have Pattison and big buisness pulling the strings and we have Oak bay and big Bob making decisions without consulting us.Bit of a joke i,d sat.

You have no idea how wrong that statement is.....sad

 

[GLG]

CL good point
And that my friends is the cheapest route to victory.
Get involved with all parties and help elect, support and encorage them to see it our way.
PC , Lib , NDP or Green - punt the people that are the problem.
GLG

 

[Englishman]

CL good point
And that my friends is the cheapest route to victory.
Get involved with all parties and help elect, support and encorage them to see it our way.
PC , Lib , NDP or Green - punt the people that are the problem.
GLG

But that is putting your faith back in the political process, and the posts of CL, High Five and many others illustrate very clearly why that won't work. Also, as we know DFO is run from Ottawa, so it makes no difference who we have out here. In fact if the MP elected out here is from a minority party that person will have less than zero influence.
If we, as recreational anglers cannot collectively get enough money together to start a legal action, then High Five is right. We may as well give up, sell the boat, and say goodbye to the West Coast fisheries. Like the cod on the East coast, it is just a matter of time....

 

[Pursuit 648]

We need to make time. Not all of us can work 4 months of the year making money hand over fist off the resource then claim poverty, the. Spend the other 8 in meetings making sure there lifestyle is looked after. I get that. But if we don't we can continue to get bent over and ***** on the Internet why things didn't go our way.

that was hilarious
bahahahahaha yeah money hands over fist i think they have more $ than the drug cartel
yeah last time i looked guides were all driving Bugatti Veyron Super sport cars at 2.4m price tag each lmao

 

[Fish-Hunter]

cmon lorne, thats unfair man, its going a little too far, unless you were refering to commies and not guides?, im a little confused maybe?....holmes*

Hey Holmes, I don't want to put words in Lorne's mouth here, but my take on it was that he was/is referring to the commercial sector.

They work for part of the year, and then, in years past and I am sure still present, they contribute large amounts of money (collectively) to lobbyist groups and legal firms to ensure that their best intrests are taken care of and secured for the next and upcoming years. We all need to take a page out of their playbook, if we want results that favour us for a change.

We have the power of numbers if we stand united. We can't fragment as a group in search of immediate gratification and greed. Yes we all want a full season this year, but we all knew last year that we weren't going to get it, and we the recreational anglers did not collectively do the right things to get what we need to get a full season. We got more TAC %, but that means nothing when last season the DFO said that the recreational guys were over somewhere near 20% of our portion of the TAC, and they based those numbers on what,,, that's right estimates and projections, so since nothing has changed in the methods of determination of our pressure on the TAC, they can at any moment that they choose, say that we are over our TAC for this year and shut us down. So a 3% increase, is an increase yes, and that is positive in itself, but really means nothing when the water hits the deck. We do not need to scramble to try and save the season, that decision was made before this season even started. By scrambling around now and giving concessions is only shooting holes in the bottom of the boat, it will not change the decision that DFO has already made in regards to this season, and it will likely set a precedent that we will have to endure for all time - this is not good for any of us. We must all stay together on this, we must communicate, think and act logically as a cohesive and united front moving forward. The commercial guys did it years ago and look where they are sitting. Do we see them chopping away at each other, NO, they put their ideas, needs and wants forward collectively to a body that has legal and negotiating teeth in their favour, every year.