Commander 26 Re Build

Sttr said:
I hear ya, first time I heard that autopilot kick in I thought something was wrong.
This system is different, no hydraulics, no bolt on steering actuator, fully electronic, motors steer independently.
Here’s a pic of the control actuatorView attachment 79475
Click to expand...
Even with those new electric Steering units, I would still test drive a boat that has it. The issues of Clunking and high RPM shifting haven't been addressed. Most of the big dealerships have some showroom boats that have the system installed and are available for sea trial. The current Yamaha system is about 10 years behind. I have used the and seem them in action, and as someone who rebuilds and sells rebuilt lower units I no longer have to worry about being able to afford a house. These motors will shift at like 2000RPM. Especially at $15K(ish) i wouldn't invest in the joystick until it becomes much more refined. the best way i would describe it is like someone panicking at the dock and slamming levers back and forth. Yamaha doesn't care if you blow your gearcases, every time you do you're stuck giving them another $8k.
 
FisherTim said:
Even with those new electric Steering units, I would still test drive a boat that has it. The issues of Clunking and high RPM shifting haven't been addressed. Most of the big dealerships have some showroom boats that have the system installed and are available for sea trial. The current Yamaha system is about 10 years behind. I have used the and seem them in action, and as someone who rebuilds and sells rebuilt lower units I no longer have to worry about being able to afford a house. These motors will shift at like 2000RPM. Especially at $15K(ish) i wouldn't invest in the joystick until it becomes much more refined. the best way i would describe it is like someone panicking at the dock and slamming levers back and forth. Yamaha doesn't care if you blow your gearcases, every time you do you're stuck giving them another $8k.
Click to expand...

So as far as the system goes theres no fails safe for shifting at high rpm while say docking or sky hooking with the joystick? The system will work as hard as it can to put you on the mark no matter if it has to shift from forward to reverse at RPMs higher then say 1000?

I seen one up at Quadra last year on an aluminum boat. I think the guy is a member on the forum
 
FisherTim said:
Even with those new electric Steering units, I would still test drive a boat that has it. The issues of Clunking and high RPM shifting haven't been addressed. Most of the big dealerships have some showroom boats that have the system installed and are available for sea trial. The current Yamaha system is about 10 years behind. I have used the and seem them in action, and as someone who rebuilds and sells rebuilt lower units I no longer have to worry about being able to afford a house. These motors will shift at like 2000RPM. Especially at $15K(ish) i wouldn't invest in the joystick until it becomes much more refined. the best way i would describe it is like someone panicking at the dock and slamming levers back and forth. Yamaha doesn't care if you blow your gearcases, every time you do you're stuck giving them another $8k.
[/
Click to expand...
 
ship happens said:
So as far as the system goes theres no fails safe for shifting at high rpm while say docking or sky hooking with the joystick? The system will work as hard as it can to put you on the mark no matter if it has to shift from forward to reverse at RPMs higher then say 1000?

I seen one up at Quadra last year on an aluminum boat. I think the guy is a member on the forum
Click to expand...
Like I said...incessant shifting. You won't need a magnet to find the metal.
 
FisherTim said:
Even with those new electric Steering units, I would still test drive a boat that has it. The issues of Clunking and high RPM shifting haven't been addressed. Most of the big dealerships have some showroom boats that have the system installed and are available for sea trial. The current Yamaha system is about 10 years behind. I have used the and seem them in action, and as someone who rebuilds and sells rebuilt lower units I no longer have to worry about being able to afford a house. These motors will shift at like 2000RPM. Especially at $15K(ish) i wouldn't invest in the joystick until it becomes much more refined. the best way i would describe it is like someone panicking at the dock and slamming levers back and forth. Yamaha doesn't care if you blow your gearcases, every time you do you're stuck giving them another $8k.
Click to expand...
Wow....a tech with an honest opinion......
 
FisherTim said:
Even with those new electric Steering units, I would still test drive a boat that has it. The issues of Clunking and high RPM shifting haven't been addressed. Most of the big dealerships have some showroom boats that have the system installed and are available for sea trial. The current Yamaha system is about 10 years behind. I have used the and seem them in action, and as someone who rebuilds and sells rebuilt lower units I no longer have to worry about being able to afford a house. These motors will shift at like 2000RPM. Especially at $15K(ish) i wouldn't invest in the joystick until it becomes much more refined. the best way i would describe it is like someone panicking at the dock and slamming levers back and forth. Yamaha doesn't care if you blow your gearcases, every time you do you're stuck giving them another $8k.
Click to expand...
I’m sold on having a new system, I hope I won’t have as bad of an experience as you are describing
 
ship happens said:
So as far as the system goes theres no fails safe for shifting at high rpm while say docking or sky hooking with the joystick? The system will work as hard as it can to put you on the mark no matter if it has to shift from forward to reverse at RPMs higher then say 1000?

I seen one up at Quadra last year on an aluminum boat. I think the guy is a member on the forum
Click to expand...
Im sure Yamaha isn't stupid and introduced some failsafes to make sure that 90% of gearcase failures will come outside of the scope of warranty. It wont rev to 4200 then shift. But Joysticks eat Gearcases. No question about it. Mercury had to completely redesign the Verado Gearcase from 4.83 to 5.44" when they introduced Joystick control (and they also all had independent electric steering). Counter rotating Gearcases also almost always fail first. Im not sure what the cutoff is, the problem is that especially with twin engines mounted 26" apart, you need to exert a LOT of thrust to make the thrust vectors intersect properly to move a 26' boat sideways.
 
Sttr said:
I’m sold on having a new system, I hope I won’t have as bad of an experience as you are describing
Click to expand...
Im sure a large part is operator error. If you know how to maneuverer a boat, wait for it to react, and apply that same theory to using the joystick, you'll probably find it a very useful tool. Well thought out, slow, smooth maneuvers are key to docking a boat, and if you are jolty with the joystick, theres not much the software can do.

A big part of the problem is that its often very inexperienced mariners who don't know their boats are exactly the ones that use it and clunk around.
 
FisherTim said:
Im sure Yamaha isn't stupid and introduced some failsafes to make sure that 90% of gearcase failures will come outside of the scope of warranty. It wont rev to 4200 then shift. But Joysticks eat Gearcases. No question about it. Mercury had to completely redesign the Verado Gearcase from 4.83 to 5.44" when they introduced Joystick control (and they also all had independent electric steering). Counter rotating Gearcases also almost always fail first. Im not sure what the cutoff is, the problem is that especially with twin engines mounted 26" apart, you need to exert a LOT of thrust to make the thrust vectors intersect properly to move a 26' boat sideways.
Click to expand...


Fair enough. Thats good information. Reversing in general above 1200ish is never good on any outboard gearcase. I always wanted to see thrust bearings on both gears in any of this stuff. Think Suzuki did that with their fly by wire system. Simple is always best.
 
My buddies boat has the electronic shifting and it definitely takes some getting used to. There's a bit of lag so if you're coming in hot to a dock, you better get it into reverse quicker than you normally would with cables.
 
ship happens said:
Fair enough. Thats good information. Reversing in general above 1200ish is never good on any outboard gearcase. I always wanted to see thrust bearings on both gears in any of this stuff. Think Suzuki did that with their fly by wire system. Simple is always best.
Click to expand...

Yamahas do actually have a reversing thrust bearing. Its not nearly as big as the forward bearing but as long as you're not reversing the prop and cruising in reverse, you'll never run into issues. It's actual shifting that does the most damage. Almost every bad gearcase I come across has either a worn dog clutch or busted seals that let water in it. Big issue with reverse thrust has always been podded boats bouncing thrust off transom and exhaust bubbles not letting the prop bite.
 
FisherTim said:
Im sure a large part is operator error. If you know how to maneuverer a boat, wait for it to react, and apply that same theory to using the joystick, you'll probably find it a very useful tool. Well thought out, slow, smooth maneuvers are key to docking a boat, and if you are jolty with the joystick, theres not much the software can do.

A big part of the problem is that its often very inexperienced mariners who don't know their boats are exactly the ones that use it and clunk around.
Click to expand...
Nailed it. I've watched rookies try and make the boat dance just for fun. Made me cringe. They shouldn't even make them shift directly sideways. Give a more limited range to promote longevity. One needs to know the limitations of the boat and conditions, especially with that sky hook.
 
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FisherTim said:
Yamahas do actually have a reversing thrust bearing. Its not nearly as big as the forward bearing but as long as you're not reversing the prop and cruising in reverse, you'll never run into issues. It's actual shifting that does the most damage. Almost every bad gearcase I come across has either a worn dog clutch or busted seals that let water in it. Big issue with reverse thrust has always been podded boats bouncing thrust off transom and exhaust bubbles not letting the prop bite.
Click to expand...


I have never ever seen an actual thrust bearingfor the reverse gear in a yamaha case.
 
Rain City said:
Nailed it. I've watched rookies try and make the boat dance just for fun. Made me cringe. They shouldn't even make them shift directly sideways. Give a more limited range to promote longevity. One needs to know the limitations of the boat and conditions, especially with that sky hook.
Click to expand...
Best is watching someone try to use the joystick to trailer a boat. I counted 59 shifts over about 2 minutes between the dock and the trailer while waiting at tulista. Would have taken 2 if he used the wheel or 6 if hed just used the throttles...
 
FisherTim said:

Part number 73, sits in the Bearing Carrier.

Only the 225+ Offshores have this. Smaller Yamahas just use a Thrust Washer. I don't recall ever seeing one thrust washer failure though.
Click to expand...

FisherTim said:

Part number 73, sits in the Bearing Carrier.

Only the 225+ Offshores have this. Smaller Yamahas just use a Thrust Washer. I don't recall ever seeing one thrust washer failure though.
Click to expand...
Well said. In a proper ASD drive we actually rotate the drive 180 instead of shifting to avoid these loading issues
 
FisherTim said:
Best is watching someone try to use the joystick to trailer a boat. I counted 59 shifts over about 2 minutes between the dock and the trailer while waiting at tulista. Would have taken 2 if he used the wheel or 6 if hed just used the throttles...
Click to expand...
Yeah but what’s the point of having the **** and balls of a bull moose if you can’t swing em around once in a while? Use that joystick if you got it
 
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