Sager; your question is trivial and therefore absurd or a trick. It is like this: we have a nice grass soccer field where we love to play soccer. Acknowledged, we used to beat up our nice green field because our stupid coach told us or at least encouraged us to play rough... Now there comes a potato farmer and applies for a license to grow potatos on large portions of our soccer field. Ridiculously, he gets a license to do this. And here you come and ask if we would not consider this potato field better looking than our somewhat beat up soccer field? Granted, potatos are necessary but FFS not on our soccer field! Grow them where they belong and not interfere negatively with other pre-existing users. Fish farms belong in enclosed land based facilities not in the ocean! It doesn't matter how many fish we rightfully or unrightfully caught and killed. That does not give fish farmers ANY right to kill or infect even one single wild salmon. Not even one! Get off our field and move to ...Idaho!!
ATTENTION: JOIN THE WAR ON FISHFARMING!
- Thread starter Little Hawk
- Start date
P
patches
Guest
salmon ranching is really no better.... we need to have our rivers naturally select the fry and smolts .then have the ocean select the adults that return .the Alaskans screw our fish over by producing 10 ?, 100 ?, 1000 ?, times the salmon that the rivers would up there . then fish them off....sounds good but what about the fish from down here that show up at the feeding grounds to find that the "extra high" amount of extra Alaskan fish have eaten the food and moved on to the next size food. and all the food is to big for our fish , that show up later than the Alaskan fish and our fish put on less weight and do not have the same ocean survival .there is only so much food in the sea and we don't know how much. to put random large numbers of fish out is not the best choice at this point . the whole thing is connected and until people wake up and realize that what we do in the ocean affects the forests.and what we do to the forests around the watersheds affects the ocean .we will continue to loss fish stocks on the west coast .
In the word of a wise man, a mentor and great author mister H. Brown.
''nor biologists, nor hatchery's, nor all the initiatives of man , will put them back,once they are gone .
chilling words that have become so true!
In the word of a wise man, a mentor and great author mister H. Brown.
''nor biologists, nor hatchery's, nor all the initiatives of man , will put them back,once they are gone .
chilling words that have become so true!
I agree that the question is somewhat moot. Fish farming has been known to be destructive long before our BC government sanctioned it; they decided to provide this destructive presence in competition with the finite resources in spite of our clear instruction.
Which viable government will run against fish farming in the next election? I'll be voting.
I think a reasonable question to the Wild Salmon Alliance is how many of the members (and I think you are now over 80 strong) are willing to walk the walk? How many of the members would voluntarily restrict themselves to some reasonable number of salmon kills for the years' to minimize their personal direct impact on the stock devastations?
This is the number one reason that I have held off signing up. I am very concerned with the many salmon user groups and find myself frustrated with the knowledge that regardless of my actions, every time I leave a salmon in the ocean it simply gets picked up by another (in the greater sense.)
I realize that this is largely DFO management, but until we start displaying our concern through our actions, no change will result in positive increases to the stocks. This is where The Province lays with the fish farms.
I would be happy to sign up if the Alliance members could find 75% of it's constituency willing to agree to some number of restricted kills. That number might be 20 salmon per year with a maximum of 10 springs or it might be 15 salmon for the year total. I'm not stuck on a particular number, maybe we don't kill anything that hasn't been clipped. Clearly DFO has it all wrong and we need to take action starting with ourselves.
The challenge I would put to the Wild Salmon Alliance is to find a way to directly reduce our impact on the Wild Salmon Stocks. A movement like this could change the entire structure of the valuable resource allocation as it is now known. It is time to take control.
Regardless of my personal concerns, I think you guys have a great movement in place and I believe in every one of you. Way to go!
Nimo
Which viable government will run against fish farming in the next election? I'll be voting.
I think a reasonable question to the Wild Salmon Alliance is how many of the members (and I think you are now over 80 strong) are willing to walk the walk? How many of the members would voluntarily restrict themselves to some reasonable number of salmon kills for the years' to minimize their personal direct impact on the stock devastations?
This is the number one reason that I have held off signing up. I am very concerned with the many salmon user groups and find myself frustrated with the knowledge that regardless of my actions, every time I leave a salmon in the ocean it simply gets picked up by another (in the greater sense.)
I realize that this is largely DFO management, but until we start displaying our concern through our actions, no change will result in positive increases to the stocks. This is where The Province lays with the fish farms.
I would be happy to sign up if the Alliance members could find 75% of it's constituency willing to agree to some number of restricted kills. That number might be 20 salmon per year with a maximum of 10 springs or it might be 15 salmon for the year total. I'm not stuck on a particular number, maybe we don't kill anything that hasn't been clipped. Clearly DFO has it all wrong and we need to take action starting with ourselves.
The challenge I would put to the Wild Salmon Alliance is to find a way to directly reduce our impact on the Wild Salmon Stocks. A movement like this could change the entire structure of the valuable resource allocation as it is now known. It is time to take control.
Regardless of my personal concerns, I think you guys have a great movement in place and I believe in every one of you. Way to go!
Nimo
S
Sager01
Guest
Chris and Patches;
My question was not intended to be a trick and certainly isn't trivial. A simple question to see if you are able to put other activities into perspective. Be very careful not to attack too quickly, as someone like me could be your strongest ally.
If one has not analyzed all other methods of culturing salmon on the coast and weighed the benefits and risks, the plan to 'sink the farms' could actually do the opposite. It may expose the fact that commercial fishing has a greater impact on wild salmon or that sport fishing is not sustainable. After all, you are working with the assumption that the process of farming salmon kills wild salmon. Remember, whatever study you point to that purports to prove that hypothesis, someone else can point to a study that questions the validity of that study. Critics of salmon farming use words like 'maybe', 'could', 'possible' to describe potential mortality. Critics of commercial and sport fishing are able to use words like 'certain' and 'absolute'.
Again, I may be your biggest ally, so be sure you aren't 'mobbing up' and losing some realities of the issue at hand.
My question was not intended to be a trick and certainly isn't trivial. A simple question to see if you are able to put other activities into perspective. Be very careful not to attack too quickly, as someone like me could be your strongest ally.
If one has not analyzed all other methods of culturing salmon on the coast and weighed the benefits and risks, the plan to 'sink the farms' could actually do the opposite. It may expose the fact that commercial fishing has a greater impact on wild salmon or that sport fishing is not sustainable. After all, you are working with the assumption that the process of farming salmon kills wild salmon. Remember, whatever study you point to that purports to prove that hypothesis, someone else can point to a study that questions the validity of that study. Critics of salmon farming use words like 'maybe', 'could', 'possible' to describe potential mortality. Critics of commercial and sport fishing are able to use words like 'certain' and 'absolute'.
Again, I may be your biggest ally, so be sure you aren't 'mobbing up' and losing some realities of the issue at hand.
S
Sager01
Guest
Nimo;
It looks like we posted at the same time, so I missed your comment while writing mine. But, we must have been reading each other's mind. You are on the right track...
It looks like we posted at the same time, so I missed your comment while writing mine. But, we must have been reading each other's mind. You are on the right track...
Nimo: agree mostly. Limiting yourself to a reasonable limit should be on every fisherman's code of ethic - especially since it is apparent that the current DFO management is malfunctioning. Myself and many of my fishing buddies do that anyway and I have released a great number of nice salmon over the years. I doubt that I even kept 10 chinooks in any of the last years. And I know many do the same. What would I need 50 chinooks for in a year?
Sager: I know what science is and how it is made and delivered, believe me. The fact is that it doesn't even need much scientific input to figure out that there is something fundamentally wrong with open pen fish farms located at migratory routes of juvenile salmon. That is common sense! I am not loosing realities at all. We are finally waking up to the fact that it is 5 to 12 o'clock for one of the greatest Canadian natural resources and there is no time to play with "maybe", "potentially", and "possibly" even though this is standard terminology in scientific reports. We need to immediately plug up every hole that drains wastefully from this precious resource. And there are a few that come to mind - open pen fish farms being one. There are feasible alternative options for building and operating fish farms - look at the enclosed systems they implemented in Norway for instance after they figured out the open pen isn't so "good" after all. Yeah, costs a bit more - no more farmed salmon for 99 cents a pound. Will customers pay more if they do not get a choice -yes they will. Again, see Europe. Americans and Canadians are wealthy enough to be able to pay $2.99 a pound if they have to. And if that's a part of the equation that will enable our salmon to survive, then so be it please. I always said, fish farms are necessary to feed the mass population because unfortunately the wild fish stocks are not in a state of condition to provide a sole source supply. Therefore, fish farms yes, BUT not where they negatively interfere with environment, and especially not where they pose a risk to the few wild salmon that are left. There is no need to reinvent the wheel - we just need to learn from the mistakes that other countries have done before in this matter because we cannot afford to do the same mistakes. The technology is ready and there - we just have to reveal and then tear those strings that some greedy and ruthless businessmen have tied to our governments.
Sager: I know what science is and how it is made and delivered, believe me. The fact is that it doesn't even need much scientific input to figure out that there is something fundamentally wrong with open pen fish farms located at migratory routes of juvenile salmon. That is common sense! I am not loosing realities at all. We are finally waking up to the fact that it is 5 to 12 o'clock for one of the greatest Canadian natural resources and there is no time to play with "maybe", "potentially", and "possibly" even though this is standard terminology in scientific reports. We need to immediately plug up every hole that drains wastefully from this precious resource. And there are a few that come to mind - open pen fish farms being one. There are feasible alternative options for building and operating fish farms - look at the enclosed systems they implemented in Norway for instance after they figured out the open pen isn't so "good" after all. Yeah, costs a bit more - no more farmed salmon for 99 cents a pound. Will customers pay more if they do not get a choice -yes they will. Again, see Europe. Americans and Canadians are wealthy enough to be able to pay $2.99 a pound if they have to. And if that's a part of the equation that will enable our salmon to survive, then so be it please. I always said, fish farms are necessary to feed the mass population because unfortunately the wild fish stocks are not in a state of condition to provide a sole source supply. Therefore, fish farms yes, BUT not where they negatively interfere with environment, and especially not where they pose a risk to the few wild salmon that are left. There is no need to reinvent the wheel - we just need to learn from the mistakes that other countries have done before in this matter because we cannot afford to do the same mistakes. The technology is ready and there - we just have to reveal and then tear those strings that some greedy and ruthless businessmen have tied to our governments.
Little Hawk
Active Member
Howdy,
Like the 'Hunters' in BC who are - ironically - the greatest allies of robust game populations in our province, so too, are the 'Sportfishermen' the greatest allies of our wild Pacific salmon.
We contribute more than talk for every pound of salmon we eat. We, moreso than any who use this resource - pay dearly for it's very existance!</u>
What we do is more than 'killing', it's a part of what it means to be a human; it's a way of life that we are passionate about.
And lest we forget - the conservationist movement was not born of the commercial fleet, or the salmon-farmers, or our government; it started with First Nations and later, the ball was picked up by the Sportfishermen.
Cheers,
Terry
Like the 'Hunters' in BC who are - ironically - the greatest allies of robust game populations in our province, so too, are the 'Sportfishermen' the greatest allies of our wild Pacific salmon.
We contribute more than talk for every pound of salmon we eat. We, moreso than any who use this resource - pay dearly for it's very existance!</u>
What we do is more than 'killing', it's a part of what it means to be a human; it's a way of life that we are passionate about.
And lest we forget - the conservationist movement was not born of the commercial fleet, or the salmon-farmers, or our government; it started with First Nations and later, the ball was picked up by the Sportfishermen.
Cheers,
Terry
B
bmilligan
Guest
I am curious as to where the negative sentiment for finfish aquaculture originates in the majority of these emails (Alexandra Morton excepted of course). Does it come from a balanced read of the literature or a gut feeling derived from sensational media tidbits funded by extensive ad campains taking advantage of an already existing psychological aversion to large scale agriculture? Without doubt there will be positive and negative impacts (biological, social, and economic) of either reducing or increasing netpen aquaculture. I find it scary when a group can take a one-sided stance on any issue - particularly one with such complexity and far-reaching implications.
Barry
Barry
P
patches
Guest
i began this venture over 8- years ago. I remember when i was talking of miss Morton and havening people from D.F.O tell me she was a nobody and a hippie environmentalists.now she is on the news and published. I flew dr john volpe out here from Alberta to Texada to help appose a net pen going in on its shores.thats back when D.F.O kicked him out of the Provence for proving Atlantic's can spawn ...and did spawn in north island river .i did my research and called places in the world where fish farming has already devastated there ecosystems .so dont tell me im a band wagoner! if you and the rest of the country new what our coast was headed for , there would not be one net pen out here..its money....money....money.
i have dedicated my life to the study of our coast line fisheries .i am a grade 8 graduate. but i spent life on the rivers of this coast .and i know whats going on by watching it happen to our fish stocks with my own 2 eyes. i dont read a news paper, and i dont watch t.v.....they are not facts.study and you will end up with the same views as me...if you dont...well then.. your the band wagoner! make the money now!because my boys will be here longer than you or me.and they dont want fish farms..,,they like there fish wild!!and they can fight this thing longer than you or I ....
i have dedicated my life to the study of our coast line fisheries .i am a grade 8 graduate. but i spent life on the rivers of this coast .and i know whats going on by watching it happen to our fish stocks with my own 2 eyes. i dont read a news paper, and i dont watch t.v.....they are not facts.study and you will end up with the same views as me...if you dont...well then.. your the band wagoner! make the money now!because my boys will be here longer than you or me.and they dont want fish farms..,,they like there fish wild!!and they can fight this thing longer than you or I ....
Something to do with world-renowned catastrophies ending in entire loss of various nation's native fish. It's not worth the risk. Ms Morton cannot be excepted from such discussions as her work is right on the button with regards to the devastation ocean fish farming is creating in BC.
I will be voting in the next BC election.
I beg your pardon? I think you are completely missing the point and haven't understood a bit of what has been said here! Please read the threads before or educate yourself otherwise and then come back and tell me that this is all a media hype! The only thing that is scary is the fact that we even have to talk about this anymore....
S
Sager01
Guest
Nimo, I am interested to know about these enclosed system (in Norway). Can you point me in the right direction, as I have never heard of this. I am aware of something being built in Campbell River, BC[?], but apparently it isn't closed contained as all the water is going to poor over the top. Now you've peaked my interest...
[?]
Sager: I can't give you a report or article off hand but if you google land-based fish farms Norway you should get some info. I have traveled Norway extensively in the 90's and have seen a number of open pen fish farm operations in the earlier 90's. Over time I noticed that some of them were suddenly gone and replaced by tank facilities on land or I have seen new ones being built on land. During my time at university, we had case studies, probably sponsored by the aquaculture industry, about how to efficiently treat waste and effluent from fish farms and how to aerate fish holding tanks. As an avid angler I remember reading news articles in the 90's that Norway's salmon stocks were in drastic decline and links to the open pen fish farms were drawn. That was the time they also started moving the fish farms out of the water.
G
gimp
Guest
Sager01 and Bmilligan I posted on page 8 can you tell if my math is off?
The first fish farm I saw was when I was about 13 years old in Double Bay. The people that ran Double Bay at that time privately owned it. They raised the Chinook not Atlantic salmon to release so they could build the sports fishing around there. Right then and there, I wanted to be a fish farmer when I grew up. I started off my collage career at Sheldon Jackson Collage and my major was going to be Aquaculture. Funny we all grow up and end up doing something else. I for one would love to see fish farms supplying the world with fish so that the "commercial fleet" would not over fish our wild salmon. Is the water heating up and are the polar caps melting? Is that a cycle that has happened hundreds of times in the earths history? Most likely YES. Can we the human race stop it? Not so sure. I think the only ice age we were around for as a race was the last one and we think an asteroid caused it. Have we destroyed spawning habitat from logging & the Damming of major rivers? YES. Has the government opened up fishing in areas that should not have been opened up? YES. Has return predictions been wrong in the past so different fisheries were open when they shouldn’t be. YES. Who loves Gill-netters? Are the fish farms trying to follow the rules the Government set for them? Most likely YES.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS MISMANAGEMENT.
I realized this in the last report by the government about how the farms have been trying to comply with the government limit of 3 lice per fish before slice is used. In the report they stated in area 3.3 they tested 4 farms in the second quarter (spring to summer) showing the farms to have .0661 female lice per fish. But when we are talking about the pure numbers of salmon in a pen (I.E. 500,000) .0661 lice per fish is still way too many. 500,000(fish per pen) X .0661(female lice per fish) = 33,050(total female lice) X 100 to 500 (eggs per egg sack) = 3,305,000 to 16,525,000 X 6(sea lice have 6 egg sacks) = 19,830,000 to 99,150,000 (sea lice production per net pen)
That’s just one net pen there are reports that most farms have 3 net pens per site
3 X 9,915,000 = 59,490,000 to 3 X 99,150,000 = 297,450,000 lice per site production
27 sites in area 3.3 per their report = 27 X 59,490,000 = 1,606,230,000 to 8,031,150,000 Sea lice hatching in area 3.3.
Here is the report in pdf format please see pages 49- 51 & 106 if you don’t want to read the whole thing, But it’s a good read.
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/aqua_report/2006/fish_health2006.pdf
typical practice for fish farms
The eggs are hatched in the fall and then held in freshwater hatcheries and freshwater lake sites for 12 to 18 months. Then they are then transferred to marine sites from November through May. In saltwater, the salmon will continue to grow for another 18 to 24 months until they are ready for harvest and processing.
Tells me farmed salmon are good size when they are placed in with the sea lice and just about the right size to eat the pink salmon smolt. I wonder if they have scales yet?
e gads
Heres and Idea if you dont want to move on land why not decommision some large container ships and put the fish farms in a few of them. Bottom line there has to be a way to do it and not hurt our wild salmon. Create seperation
Closed containment is the way of the future. AgriMarine Industries is doing it right now. Evolve or become extinct the choice is yours.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/money/story.html?id=93144e4d-c43f-45d0-ac50-b95839dcb18f
The first fish farm I saw was when I was about 13 years old in Double Bay. The people that ran Double Bay at that time privately owned it. They raised the Chinook not Atlantic salmon to release so they could build the sports fishing around there. Right then and there, I wanted to be a fish farmer when I grew up. I started off my collage career at Sheldon Jackson Collage and my major was going to be Aquaculture. Funny we all grow up and end up doing something else. I for one would love to see fish farms supplying the world with fish so that the "commercial fleet" would not over fish our wild salmon. Is the water heating up and are the polar caps melting? Is that a cycle that has happened hundreds of times in the earths history? Most likely YES. Can we the human race stop it? Not so sure. I think the only ice age we were around for as a race was the last one and we think an asteroid caused it. Have we destroyed spawning habitat from logging & the Damming of major rivers? YES. Has the government opened up fishing in areas that should not have been opened up? YES. Has return predictions been wrong in the past so different fisheries were open when they shouldn’t be. YES. Who loves Gill-netters? Are the fish farms trying to follow the rules the Government set for them? Most likely YES.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS MISMANAGEMENT.
I realized this in the last report by the government about how the farms have been trying to comply with the government limit of 3 lice per fish before slice is used. In the report they stated in area 3.3 they tested 4 farms in the second quarter (spring to summer) showing the farms to have .0661 female lice per fish. But when we are talking about the pure numbers of salmon in a pen (I.E. 500,000) .0661 lice per fish is still way too many. 500,000(fish per pen) X .0661(female lice per fish) = 33,050(total female lice) X 100 to 500 (eggs per egg sack) = 3,305,000 to 16,525,000 X 6(sea lice have 6 egg sacks) = 19,830,000 to 99,150,000 (sea lice production per net pen)
That’s just one net pen there are reports that most farms have 3 net pens per site
3 X 9,915,000 = 59,490,000 to 3 X 99,150,000 = 297,450,000 lice per site production
27 sites in area 3.3 per their report = 27 X 59,490,000 = 1,606,230,000 to 8,031,150,000 Sea lice hatching in area 3.3.
Here is the report in pdf format please see pages 49- 51 & 106 if you don’t want to read the whole thing, But it’s a good read.
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/aqua_report/2006/fish_health2006.pdf
typical practice for fish farms
The eggs are hatched in the fall and then held in freshwater hatcheries and freshwater lake sites for 12 to 18 months. Then they are then transferred to marine sites from November through May. In saltwater, the salmon will continue to grow for another 18 to 24 months until they are ready for harvest and processing.
Tells me farmed salmon are good size when they are placed in with the sea lice and just about the right size to eat the pink salmon smolt. I wonder if they have scales yet?
e gads
Heres and Idea if you dont want to move on land why not decommision some large container ships and put the fish farms in a few of them. Bottom line there has to be a way to do it and not hurt our wild salmon. Create seperation
Closed containment is the way of the future. AgriMarine Industries is doing it right now. Evolve or become extinct the choice is yours.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/money/story.html?id=93144e4d-c43f-45d0-ac50-b95839dcb18f
G
gimp
Guest
S
Sager01
Guest
Hi Gimp;
Nimo had mentioned that Norway has 'closed containment'.
Unfortunately, the attachment you provide is to a system that is not 'close' contained. Apprently, this trial (which hasn't been built yet?) simply pumps water into a solid walled system, collects about 40% of the fish poop, while the remaining poop and all the water poors over the top. This doesn't qualify (in my mind anyways) as 'closed' containment.
I also understand that the environmental impacts from the pumps required to move saltwater aren't too 'eco' friendly.
So, I keep hearing about 'closed' containment, but I have not been shown this system yet.
Nimo had mentioned that Norway has 'closed containment'.
Unfortunately, the attachment you provide is to a system that is not 'close' contained. Apprently, this trial (which hasn't been built yet?) simply pumps water into a solid walled system, collects about 40% of the fish poop, while the remaining poop and all the water poors over the top. This doesn't qualify (in my mind anyways) as 'closed' containment.
I also understand that the environmental impacts from the pumps required to move saltwater aren't too 'eco' friendly.
So, I keep hearing about 'closed' containment, but I have not been shown this system yet.
P
patches
Guest
o.k its just not about the lice though guys . the impact of the world loss of energy feeding farm fish make it unsustainable.for a lb of farm fish there is a loss. plus where do you think the food comes from?.it ''comes from the ocean'' they will say .ok....then where? it comes from country's in South America where the mercury levels are so high...and the environment is so polluted. they catch and grind up all the shrimp crabs fish ..but mostly bottom feeding animals at the bottom eating high levels of mercury. then we put that dry pellet into the ecosystem ...it gets digested , **** out ,and then gets bio accumulates into the ecosystem by bacteria that converts it into an organic form called methylmercury...if you check any long term site or even a hatchery with a silty area below you will find high levels of mercury. if it does not get wash away where nobody sees..
and then there is the medications that could cause a coast wide collapse of the fishery.....but first any body know any more about the feed they would like to add ?
I can talk about this **** for hrs.
but why.. like chis73 said ...why talk about it...actions speak louder than words!once you see the hole picture ...
a power plant at the top!
a tree farm in the middle!
and a farm at the mouth!
its shameful.. "why spend money on wild salmon" is what they think...
"then its the peoples and not ours"...
and it all goes to the highest bidding corporation from another country .
makes me ashamed of my government and how they sold out my children's resources....
and then there is the medications that could cause a coast wide collapse of the fishery.....but first any body know any more about the feed they would like to add ?
I can talk about this **** for hrs.
but why.. like chis73 said ...why talk about it...actions speak louder than words!once you see the hole picture ...
a power plant at the top!
a tree farm in the middle!
and a farm at the mouth!
its shameful.. "why spend money on wild salmon" is what they think...
"then its the peoples and not ours"...
and it all goes to the highest bidding corporation from another country .
makes me ashamed of my government and how they sold out my children's resources....
S
sockeyefry
Guest
I agree with Milligan. I have not read anything in these posts which I would classify as anything other than someone's opinion. It is for this reason that the legal system has cross examination. It prevents an opinion from becoming fact. And as for your suggestion that he go away and read up on this issue, I would challenge you all to do the same.
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