VHF and ROCM

[Sea lyin’]

as per transport canada (in the FAQ section so you dont have to sift through pages of legislation) and the radiocommunications act

3. Do I need a radio operator's certificate?

Marine radiotelephones fitted onboard Canadian vessels, must be operated by a person holding a Radio Operator's Certificate ( ROC-M ). Commercial vessels required to fit Digital Selective Calling or a satellite ship earth station must employ radio operators holding a Radio Operator's Certificate - Maritime Commercial ( ROC-MC ).

Frequently Asked Questions

tc.canada.ca

I’m trying to find out if transport Canada says operating is the same thing as switching on. My teacher worked closely with transport Canada to develop the ROC-m, med-A3 and SVOP courses that were the standard for training. It’s all new now apparently. He’s the one who told me that switching your radio on is not considered operating. I’ll contact him direct if I can’t find it.

 

[YachtMech]

here is the thing:

how much time do you spend learning about new fishing gear, and how much effort do you put into knowing the best way to fish for this or that, most of us can ramble on for hours about it, argue which fish tastes best, what tide is best to fish at certain locations...

how much effort are you putting into learning about the life saving equipment on your boat, are your flares up to date? do you have a ditch kit handy? would you be able to transmit a mayday with all the pertinent information seconds before abandoning your burning ship 20 miles offshore? Do you really want to be looking at a reference card while doing this?

The course is intended for you to know what is required and the basics of operation so you have a chance of saving your butt, and so you can better educate yourself on the aspects of this life saving device. Just like an intro to fly tying course, it wont teach you everything but it will give you enough to get started.

 

[YachtMech]

I’m trying to find out if transport Canada says operating is the same thing as switching on. My teacher worked closely with transport Canada to develop the ROC-m, med-A3 and SVOP courses that were the standard for training. It’s all new now apparently. He’s the one who told me that switching your radio on is not considered operating. I’ll contact him direct if I can’t find it.

here is some clarity and actual examples, in regards to the term operating.

Firstly transport canada does not control the act or define it, the radio commiunications act is seperate from the canada shipping act which is mostly relevent to transport canada. However the section in the canada shipping act is reliant on the radiocommunications act in regards to VHF operation. Its not transport canada that makes decisions on this, neither transport canada the ROC, MED and SVOP courses actually have input or control, have no reflection and cannot superceed the Radiocommunications act.


switching on a device is operating it, you had to interact with it causing it to power up, if its malfunctioning it could cause problems by just being powered up. Or as another hypothetical point, you have a handheld and switch it on put it in your pocked down on a seat, gets covered with gear, and the mic button is depressed, from what point are you operating it?

you put your keys in the ignition of your car and start it, are you operating it?

you sit in your car pissed drunk keys in the ignition? can you get a ticked for operating under the influence?

they don’t need to differentiate between switching on and operating, because any intentional interaction that causes the device to function in any way is considered operating so the semantics don’t matter in this case.

I’ve run into this discussion many times, quite often by people who should know better and were adamant they were correct. I was trained by coast guard and the MCTS instructors at the coast guard college, I was trained on a full room MCTS simulator and we spent probably over 80 hours training to get our ROC. Very few people teaching these courses get that in depth or extent of training. These kinds of question were brought up in both the ROC course and our maritime law courses. This is the direct quote from the Radiocommunications act, it was discussed at length and here is the actual framework and wording that ends the argument.

"radiocommunication. radiocommunication or radio means any transmission, emission or reception of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds or intelligence of any nature by means of electromagnetic waves of frequencies lower than 3 000 GHz propagated in space without artificial guide"

As soon as your VHF is switched on it is now an operating radiocommunication device since is can at that point both send and receive, and you are required under this act to be licensed accordingly.

really what the arguement comes down to regarless of opinion, is what would happen if this was brought to court, the question would be asked, did you turn it on? the next thing would be the definition of operating, and presenting the radiocommunication act, and the admision would have to be made that turning it on is in fact operating, and that would be the end of that defense of "yes it was on but I wasnt operating it"

 

[sir-vivor]

I agree everyone should have the radio lisc but in the past 30 years I've had mine and been boarded for inspections 4 or 5 times, not once was asked for my certification so ??

 

[Sea lyin’]

here is some clarity and actual examples, in regards to the term operating.

Firstly transport canada does not control the act or define it, the radio commiunications act is seperate from the canada shipping act which is mostly relevent to transport canada. However the section in the canada shipping act is reliant on the radiocommunications act in regards to VHF operation. Its not transport canada that makes decisions on this, neither transport canada the ROC, MED and SVOP courses actually have input or control, have no reflection and cannot superceed the Radiocommunications act.


switching on a device is operating it, you had to interact with it causing it to power up, if its malfunctioning it could cause problems by just being powered up. Or as another hypothetical point, you have a handheld and switch it on put it in your pocked down on a seat, gets covered with gear, and the mic button is depressed, from what point are you operating it?

you put your keys in the ignition of your car and start it, are you operating it?

you sit in your car pissed drunk keys in the ignition? can you get a ticked for operating under the influence?

they don’t need to differentiate between switching on and operating, because any intentional interaction that causes the device to function in any way is considered operating so the semantics don’t matter in this case.

I’ve run into this discussion many times, quite often by people who should know better and were adamant they were correct. I was trained by coast guard and the MCTS instructors at the coast guard college, I was trained on a full room MCTS simulator and we spent probably over 80 hours training to get our ROC. Very few people teaching these courses get that in depth or extent of training. These kinds of question were brought up in both the ROC course and our maritime law courses. This is the direct quote from the Radiocommunications act, it was discussed at length and here is the actual framework and wording that ends the argument.

"radiocommunication. radiocommunication or radio means any transmission, emission or reception of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds or intelligence of any nature by means of electromagnetic waves of frequencies lower than 3 000 GHz propagated in space without artificial guide"

As soon as your VHF is switched on it is now an operating radiocommunication device since is can at that point both send and receive, and you are required under this act to be licensed accordingly.

really what the arguement comes down to regarless of opinion, is what would happen if this was brought to court, the question would be asked, did you turn it on? the next thing would be the definition of operating, and presenting the radiocommunication act, and the admision would have to be made that turning it on is in fact operating, and that would be the end of that defense of "yes it was on but I wasnt operating it"

It wasn’t then it was. I must’ve been asleep that day myself haha. Here’s the reply from Bruce himself.

“Thank you for your inquiry.

Going back to the early 1980's, operating was considered to be transmitting so you would not need a ROC(M) just to listen to the weather forecast.

Then Industry Canada apparently had a discussion with their legal department and the result was that now turning the radio on is considered operating. This was changed quite a few years ago. This requirement is noted on the bottom of page 1 of the CURRENT ROC(M) manual.

Therefore, each person operating would need a ROC(M) just to listen to the radio.”

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me.

 

[Sir Reel]

I agree everyone should have the radio lisc but in the past 30 years I've had mine and been boarded for inspections 4 or 5 times, not once was asked for my certification so ??

That's not the point. All you have to do is listen to channel 16 on a Saturday morning and realize that there are lots of folks who need basic radio protocol training. The coastguard constantly has to interject on inappropriate conversations. It is an easy course to understand the basics and pass the test. The number one reason for a VHF radio is safety. If you are sinking or on fire and call on channel 16 everyone in an 8 to 10 mile radius monitoring 16 can hear. Through repeaters the coastguard can hear pretty much coast wide. Plus with DSC if properly set up you can send an emergency alert that lets the coastguards know your exact position and vessel information.

Folks on Channel 16. "hey coastguard can I get a radio check?" "does anybody know what time it is" "hey Bob did you see that &^%## Seal!"

 

[cracked_ribs]

Government of Canada licensing exemptions...

Licensing Requirements​

Do I need a licence for the marine radio equipment on board my vessel?

You will not require a licence if you meet both of the following criteria:

• the vessel is not operated in the sovereign waters of a country other than Canada.
• the radio equipment on board the vessel is only capable of operating on frequencies that are allocated for maritime mobile communications or marine radio navigation. You can verify whether the frequencies you use are in the maritime mobile band by referring to Regulation by Reference RBR-2.

I no longer recall exactly whether this applies to the radio operator's certificate; I did the class a long time ago and now forget whether station licensing is separate from operator certification. But my point is not really that you should avoid getting the license, simply that the license does nothing and the course is so rudimentary that you could learn it front to back in two minutes of looking at a sticker.

If you want to learn to be good with a radio I think that's great. I simply find the course itself fairly pointless and I am inclined to point out the basic failure of licensing when I see it.

 

[YachtMech]

Government of Canada licensing exemptions...

Licensing Requirements​

Do I need a licence for the marine radio equipment on board my vessel?

You will not require a licence if you meet both of the following criteria:

• the vessel is not operated in the sovereign waters of a country other than Canada.
• the radio equipment on board the vessel is only capable of operating on frequencies that are allocated for maritime mobile communications or marine radio navigation. You can verify whether the frequencies you use are in the maritime mobile band by referring to Regulation by Reference RBR-2.

I no longer recall exactly whether this applies to the radio operator's certificate; I did the class a long time ago and now forget whether station licensing is separate from operator certification. But my point is not really that you should avoid getting the license, simply that the license does nothing and the course is so rudimentary that you could learn it front to back in two minutes of looking at a sticker.

If you want to learn to be good with a radio I think that's great. I simply find the course itself fairly pointless and I am inclined to point out the basic failure of licensing when I see it.

Yes in Canada station licensing actually has to do with the wattage of the transmitter,Those transmitting stations can transmit up to 60 miles, which would be a severe issue if everybody had one, Station license is separate from a ROC, However a lot of countries are not requiring that you have a station license as well regardless of what wattage your transmitter is

 

[YachtMech]

The way to explain it is the equipment needs to be licensed in some countries, or if you have a transmitter capable of a certain power output it also needs a license that’s independent of your ROC, your ROC of course is the operating certificate not the equipment License

 

[cracked_ribs]

The way to explain it is the equipment needs to be licensed in some countries, or if you have a transmitter capable of a certain power output it also needs a license that’s independent of your ROC, your ROC of course is the operating certificate not the equipment License

Entirely plausible; it's been a long time since I had to think about the licensing requirements.

But, of course, it doesn't change my thoughts on the course or the utility of the license itself.

 

[Saxe Point]

That's not the point. All you have to do is listen to channel 16 on a Saturday morning and realize that there are lots of folks who need basic radio protocol training. The coastguard constantly has to interject on inappropriate conversations. It is an easy course to understand the basics and pass the test. The number one reason for a VHF radio is safety. If you are sinking or on fire and call on channel 16 everyone in an 8 to 10 mile radius monitoring 16 can hear. Through repeaters the coastguard can hear pretty much coast wide. Plus with DSC if properly set up you can send an emergency alert that lets the coastguards know your exact position and vessel information.

Folks on Channel 16. "hey coastguard can I get a radio check?" "does anybody know what time it is" "hey Bob did you see that &^%## Seal!"

100% correct. And how many even have their radios properly set up to maximize the safety features? Very few:

U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary - District 17

Public and Members Website for the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary's District 17

wow.uscgaux.info

DSC: The radio feature you likely aren’t using

At a meeting with 250 boaters last year, I asked for a show of hands: “How many of you have registered your DSC radio and have an MMSI number?

www.soundingsonline.com

To spend so much time and money on fishing and boating while neglecting things that could save your life and the lives of others is unwise.

 

[Sir Reel]

100% correct. And how many even have their radios properly set up to maximize the safety features? Very few:

U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary - District 17

Public and Members Website for the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary's District 17

wow.uscgaux.info

DSC: The radio feature you likely aren’t using

At a meeting with 250 boaters last year, I asked for a show of hands: “How many of you have registered your DSC radio and have an MMSI number?

www.soundingsonline.com

To spend so much time and money on fishing and boating while neglecting things that could save your life and the lives of others is unwise.

Exactly! Mine is registered and it is free and easy to do! I have even showed my family and guests how to use it in emergencies. Wasn't there a case a few years ago where the guide fell overboard and the guest had no idea how to work the radio, DSC, or even turn the boat around? Amazingly he got picked up hours later. No lifejacket but used his rubber boats upside down to stay afloat. I suspect he spends 5 minutes with guests now to show them how it works.

FYI you can only program a radio for MMSI once or twice so if buying used and already programmed you may not be able to transfer into your name. Plus don't forget to do your handheld if equipped with DSC

 

[tinboatrobb]

this thread is getting crazy. you need an ROC if you have a VHF. pretty simple.

 

[barkerfam]

....unless you are in the US....

 

[zurk]

lol. just get your ROC-M and Ham Radio license. easy peasy.
and then you can put an APRS tracker on your boat as well.
you need to know all the stuff in ROC-M and ham radio anyway. its not just an exam - the material is useful including basic antenna and electrical theory.

 

[Baxter]

...

But if you want to imagine the course, here's what it's like: imagine a bunch of people this summer mow their lawns in bare feet and somehow chop off their toes in a lawnmower, and some Karen successfully petitions the government to make a mandatory six hour lawnmower safety course for everyone who buys one.

.....

It's just another lawnmower safety course, though.

Damn. I wish I knew about this course when I still had toes...

 

[Baxter]

You never know. I taught adult ed courses for many years and recall a student that would constantly doodle during my "riveting" lectures. I eventually wandered back, on my high horse, to give him hell for being so disrespectful. Well, this guy was a fantastic artist who went on to do very well in the course. People process information differently. I learned something that day and even bought some of his art!

It is interesting. I have heard that for some, doodling helps them to retain the information. Not me, but for a lot of people it helps. Something about how stimulating the brain with one activity allows for easier retention of other information or something like that.

Same reason why listening to music while studying can help some people remember material. The human brain is rather complicated

 

[Baxter]

as per transport canada (in the FAQ section so you dont have to sift through pages of legislation) and the radiocommunications act

3. Do I need a radio operator's certificate?

Marine radiotelephones fitted onboard Canadian vessels, must be operated by a person holding a Radio Operator's Certificate ( ROC-M ). Commercial vessels required to fit Digital Selective Calling or a satellite ship earth station must employ radio operators holding a Radio Operator's Certificate - Maritime Commercial ( ROC-MC ).

Frequently Asked Questions

tc.canada.ca

Perfect, this was essentially what I was trying to find out. (I could not find this info when I searched. Government websites are such crap.) So having it on the boat in and of itself is fine. Just don't Use it. Now defining "use" is another thing. Does turning it on count? Sounds like it. But I won't worry about that. Sometimes I listen to 16, but most times I have it turned off anyways.

The main use I have for keeping it is if there is an emergency, and if I am on fire, or sinking, or whatever, I can live with the consequences of using it to call for help as a substitution of death

(Still I plan to take the course at some point anyway - and will get a cheat card to have on board in the meantime)

 

[Baxter]

...seconds before abandoning your burning ship 20 miles offshore?...

For me, if I am 20 miles offshore something has gone SERIOUSLY wrong.

But I get your point.

 

[Soup Knot Sea]

Another classic SFBC thread.... a couple things that are good to know, and a bunch of stuff I had no idea I needed to know haha

I've signed up for a ROC-M course for mid April, the excitement is hard to handle . However, in the meantime, I did a google for "VHF radio procedures" and poached an image of the Transport Canada Distress and Safety Radiotelephone Procedures. Then I went to stickermule.com and ordered up a dozen 7"x5.5" stickers. I put one on the safety kit for my Zodiac, and will be handing them out to friends with boats. The stickers turned out pretty nice, the font may be a bit small in spots but it's clear and legible. The dozen stickers cost me $22, cheap and easy!

I'll still do the course, but figured this will be good reference to have posted near the VHF in boats, and for passengers on board who may not be aware of proper procedures.

I'll have a few extras, if you're in the Sidney area and would like one of these stickers, fire me a PM

Cheers!