Halibut issue

[Fishing Guide]

Cheers fish4all,

I would humbly suggest that common ground must be found in this for, without consensus, that decision will be made by DFO/Government and we all know what great decisions they are capable of producing.

However, I am concerned on how consensus can be found when the gifted ITQ is held by skippers who make vast amounts of money from a gifted Common Property Resource and have no desire to abandon this lucrative positon while the skippers who must lease quota have been instructed not to say or do anything to jeopordize that position or they will no longer have access to the quota. They stare down at the Sports Sector who have neither the financial resources nor the stomach to purchase said quota as they view it (as did the Supreme Court) as a Common Property Resource.

I am more than capable of understanding a logical arguement but, if you always do what you always have done, you will always get what you have always got. To expect either to voluntarily move or abandon their position seems futile.

Perhaps you may be so bold as to suggest (or a neutral party) what may be common ground for I have exhausted my thoughts on this issue. I was more than prepared to accept a reasonable compromise but, to be perfectly honest, the longer this carries on, the less inclined I am to take this approach.

Originally a loss of 1.8% of every ITQ would have met the needs of the Sports Sector for this year while we searched for a long term solution. I am now leaning (heavily) towards scrapping the whole system - not a purchase simply a take back from DFO rendering the original allocation null and void and without any merrit or status at law. DFO would then divide the TAC as such:

The first allocation would be to First Nations for Subsistence and Ceremonial purposes but NOT for sales. This would be based on a fixed numbers of members and not simply an inflated or theoretical number. To claim a Ceremonial Fish you would have to have proof that the fish was used in a ceremony. To claim a Food Fish you would have to numbers to show that the fish was actually consumed. Gone would be the days where each member would claim fish that, when the numbers worked out, each member (man, woman and child) would have to consume 128 lbs of halibut each and every day of the year.

The second allocation would be to Sports Fishermen with a 2 fish per day and 4 fish possession limit. The season would start February 1st and end December 31st. There would be a requirement that all halibut be marked on the license and that a 20 fish limit per year be imposed.

The remaining allocation would be to the commercial fleet where the halibut TAC is held by DFO and leased out to commercial skippers only if they personnally fish that year and the proceeds of that lease coming back to DFO (not private holders) to be used for the subsistence of the fishery. In this allocation DFO would ensure the inclusion of First Nations and their claim to commercial interests. The lease value would be based on 50% of the landed value so that the lease would make money for the skipper and the taxpayers.

 

[IronNoggin]

Just thinking out loud" where are the "flipper skippers"

Certainly not out in the open on this one, but even more as certain, definitely pulling strings behind the scenes to ensure their Golden Geese remain intact. Extremely deep pockets will almost always remain anonymous while inflicting their will, no surprise they are doing just that in this matter. They must be feeling a little of the heat as the word has trickled down from high to all of those who have to lease quota: Not a Word. For any to buck that message would mean the immediate loss of lease privileges which, for most, would mean the end of their operations. This is the greatest stumbling block for any possibility of the Working Fishermen sitting down at the table with the recreational sector and formulating a Fair and Equitable system of benefit for all. FEAR is an extremely strong motivator!

Good theory FishingGuide. But a re-vamp of the nature you've proposed is extremely unlikely given DFO's stance. I believe what is required is to determine a method to bring all of us to the table, without the imposing shadow of the absentee Fish Brokers. Tough nut to crack, but I sincerely believe that is really the only option if we are to realize a satisfactory outcome to this Royal Mess...

Nog

 

[salmonkiller01]

From what I have read on the halibut issue does raise concerns but what I am really concerned about is the possibilities of salmon going in the same direction. I know Jeremy Maynard has talked about it in his newspaper column and that scares the crap out of me. Reading all the posts has given me a greater awareness of the issue. Thanks all

 

[GLG]

Tell ya what. When the decision comes out and things quiet down a bit, although I know there have been no paid lobbiest by the phma over this issue, I would gladly sit accross the table, discuss our differences and buy a beer for you and a tequila for me. Who knows may even be able to find some common ground in this mess.

You’re on for the beer and a shot. I will take you on your word as just because the lobbyist counts you, as an active client, doesn’t mean he is currently doing any work for you. I see we have common ground, we both think this is a mess.


[FONT=&quot]GLG[/FONT]

 

[Derby]

From what I have read on the halibut issue does raise concerns but what I am really concerned about is the possibilities of salmon going in the same direction. I know Jeremy Maynard has talked about it in his newspaper column and that scares the crap out of me. Reading all the posts has given me a greater awareness of the issue. Thanks all

Yes believe what you are hearing

 

[Ding Dong!]

Cheers fish4all,

I would humbly suggest that common ground must be found in this for, without consensus, that decision will be made by DFO/Government and we all know what great decisions they are capable of producing.

However, I am concerned on how consensus can be found when the gifted ITQ is held by skippers who make vast amounts of money from a gifted Common Property Resource and have no desire to abandon this lucrative positon while the skippers who must lease quota have been instructed not to say or do anything to jeopordize that position or they will no longer have access to the quota. They stare down at the Sports Sector who have neither the financial resources nor the stomach to purchase said quota as they view it (as did the Supreme Court) as a Common Property Resource.

I am more than capable of understanding a logical arguement but, if you always do what you always have done, you will always get what you have always got. To expect either to voluntarily move or abandon their position seems futile.

Perhaps you may be so bold as to suggest (or a neutral party) what may be common ground for I have exhausted my thoughts on this issue. I was more than prepared to accept a reasonable compromise but, to be perfectly honest, the longer this carries on, the less inclined I am to take this approach.

Originally a loss of 1.8% of every ITQ would have met the needs of the Sports Sector for this year while we searched for a long term solution. I am now leaning (heavily) towards scrapping the whole system - not a purchase simply a take back from DFO rendering the original allocation null and void and without any merrit or status at law. DFO would then divide the TAC as such:

The first allocation would be to First Nations for Subsistence and Ceremonial purposes but NOT for sales. This would be based on a fixed numbers of members and not simply an inflated or theoretical number. To claim a Ceremonial Fish you would have to have proof that the fish was used in a ceremony. To claim a Food Fish you would have to numbers to show that the fish was actually consumed. Gone would be the days where each member would claim fish that, when the numbers worked out, each member (man, woman and child) would have to consume 128 lbs of halibut each and every day of the year.

The second allocation would be to Sports Fishermen with a 2 fish per day and 4 fish possession limit. The season would start February 1st and end December 31st. There would be a requirement that all halibut be marked on the license and that a 20 fish limit per year be imposed.

The remaining allocation would be to the commercial fleet where the halibut TAC is held by DFO and leased out to commercial skippers only if they personnally fish that year and the proceeds of that lease coming back to DFO (not private holders) to be used for the subsistence of the fishery. In this allocation DFO would ensure the inclusion of First Nations and their claim to commercial interests. The lease value would be based on 50% of the landed value so that the lease would make money for the skipper and the taxpayers.

As we move though the brainstorming process keep in mind that what ever is good for the goose, so be it for the gander too. Under FN food & ceremonial they are acting among their common rights as recognized by the supreme court of Canada. FN may not sell their catch legally unless under license in the shared fishery. The aspect of concern that you mention is already covered by the fisheries act & statutes. Something to consider when making forceful suggestions; is to first realize that the sport sector is the least accountable and, although we participate under license, there is no requirement to report your creel at this time.

 

[Derby]

As we move though the brainstorming process keep in mind that what ever is good for the goose, so be it for the gander too. Under FN food & ceremonial they are acting among their common rights as recognized by the supreme court of Canada. FN may not sell their catch legally unless under license in the shared fishery. The aspect of concern that you mention is already covered by the fisheries act & statutes. Something to consider when making forceful suggestions; is to first realize that the sport sector is the least accountable and, although we participate under license, there is no requirement to report your creel at this time.

Perhaps you should ask DFO ?

 

[Ding Dong!]

Perhaps you should ask DFO ?

Ask DFO what?

 

[Derby]

Something to consider when making forceful suggestions; is to first realize that the sport sector is the least accountable and, although we participate under license, there is no requirement to report your creel at this time.

In that part of your statement: you seem to think the Sport fisherman are responsable?I'm just thinking, ask DFO they seem to be happy with the current system.Which I agree needs to improve-
"Bad sport fisherman"

 

[Ding Dong!]

Something to consider when making forceful suggestions; is to first realize that the sport sector is the least accountable and, although we participate under license, there is no requirement to report your creel at this time.

In that part of your statement: you seem to think the Sport fisherman are responsable?I'm just thinking, ask DFO they seem to be happy with the current system.Which I agree needs to improve-
"Bad sport fisherman"

I don't understand what you are implying. My statement was in reply to the gentleman's post regarding FN fisheries. My reply is given when comparing all sectors while they are participating in a shared resource fishery. Individual angler's are the least accountable. Both FN and Commercial are required by law in the shared fishery to report, the sport sector is not. Where I was going, comes from the opening statement to the gentleman; that is "As we move though the brainstorming process keep in mind that what ever is good for the goose, so be it for the gander too.".

 

[Fishing Guide]

Cheers DD,

I have no problem reporting my catch and that of my guests. In fact I am puzzled why we have not moved in this direction already. It takes no effort to record the catch - already doing that for salmon and ling cod - and a stamp once a year to mail it is the least I can do to ensure the survival of this lifestyle.

However...as you mention that the First Nations are already covered under the common resource but cannot 'sell' their food fish I am amused. Tell me that again during the summer when it is almost impossible to drive through Port Alberni without being swarmed by offers of fresh caught sockeye from the countless road side stands. Seems to me that DFO only enforces the rules they choose and turns a blind eye to those that they find politically expedient.

 

[Sculpin]

I don't understand what you are implying. My statement was in reply to the gentleman's post regarding FN fisheries. My reply is given when comparing all sectors while they are participating in a shared resource fishery. Individual angler's are the least accountable. Both FN and Commercial are required by law in the shared fishery to report, the sport sector is not. Where I was going, comes from the opening statement to the gentleman; that is "As we move though the brainstorming process keep in mind that what ever is good for the goose, so be it for the gander too.".

You understand perfectly what he was implying. More wasting time garble by the great Ding Dong! Won't release his great idea's to all that are concerned. We don't have time.................have you given that any thought oh great one? We have sat down for 7 years to try to talk this mess out with DFO and they don't listen. That is what this whole movement is about.

Cheers DD,

I have no problem reporting my catch and that of my guests. In fact I am puzzled why we have not moved in this direction already. It takes no effort to record the catch - already doing that for salmon and ling cod - and a stamp once a year to mail it is the least I can do to ensure the survival of this lifestyle.

However...as you mention that the First Nations are already covered under the common resource but cannot 'sell' their food fish I am amused. Tell me that again during the summer when it is almost impossible to drive through Port Alberni without being swarmed by offers of fresh caught sockeye from the countless road side stands. Seems to me that DFO only enforces the rules they choose and turns a blind eye to those that they find politically expedient.

I have no problem either reporting EVERYTHING that I catch. I believe there is something coming very soon in regards to this and it is not soon enough IHMO.

DFO is too top heavy. They need to ax managers right now and put front line people on the job. To record everything that comes out of the water by all sectors period.

 

[Ding Dong!]

We have sat down for 7 years to try to talk this mess out with DFO and they don't listen.

Where exactly have you personally been sitting in and participating over the past 7 years "Sculpin"? More pointless attacks. Please don't fret, when we have everything ready, there will be plenty of information for you to digest.

 

[Ding Dong!]

Cheers DD,

I have no problem reporting my catch and that of my guests. In fact I am puzzled why we have not moved in this direction already. It takes no effort to record the catch - already doing that for salmon and ling cod - and a stamp once a year to mail it is the least I can do to ensure the survival of this lifestyle.

However...as you mention that the First Nations are already covered under the common resource but cannot 'sell' their food fish I am amused. Tell me that again during the summer when it is almost impossible to drive through Port Alberni without being swarmed by offers of fresh caught sockeye from the countless road side stands. Seems to me that DFO only enforces the rules they choose and turns a blind eye to those that they find politically expedient.

I believe that in the future almost every angler would be happy to help gather all the necessary information that DFO has to date been ignoring and ultimately diminishing the value of our common stocks vicariously. Everyone recognizes issues in the system, and many areas need massive overhauls in order to be more accountable. Selling fish taken under food and ceremonial purposes does contravene the fisheries act and certainly should be dealt with accordingly, as should any action by any individual who chooses to cross the line.

 

[IronNoggin]

I have no problem reporting my catch and that of my guests. In fact I am puzzled why we have not moved in this direction already.

DFO has been presented with numerous suggestions and advice in this regard over many years. On each occasion they simply dismissed them with a sneer suggesting the system they have in place is "working". Yeah, right, working for who?

As I understand it they are now moving towards something a tad more realistic regarding halibut (and other species). Took a crisis of this magnitude to get them off their sorry lazy asses though.

However...as you mention that the First Nations are already covered under the common resource but cannot 'sell' their food fish I am amused... Seems to me that DFO only enforces the rules they choose and turns a blind eye to those that they find politically expedient.

Selling fish taken under food and ceremonial purposes does contravene the fisheries act and certainly should be dealt with accordingly, as should any action by any individual who chooses to cross the line.

"Should be". Likely never happen though. The political clout the "Race Card" pulls is enough to scare the living chit out of everyone in DFO headquarters and right up to the PM's office. I sincerely doubt we will ever see the day that ANY politico grows a big enough set to deal with this issue head on. In fact, they go right out of their way to demand the "Hands Off" approach to the front line troops pretty well everywhere in the province. The Stamp and the Fraser are shining examples thereof.

Sculpin, you are absolutely correct. DFO is amongst the most "top-heavy" of the ministries there is. A simple and quick look at the budget dispersal's clearly indicate that Kent Street sucks up many times over the operations on any of our three coasts. And there lies much of the problems that department creates. Ministers come and go like the wind. Firmly entrenched are the long-term bureaucrats who survive change after change after change on the political front. It is these same bureaucrats who design and implement the policies of mismanagement in Canada on a forever reoccurring basis and are basically unaccountable & indestructible. It very much is they who are the problem. Best case scenario: Strip the headquarters offices of 85% of these Dead Weights, leaving simply a Minister's office and a few support staff, and spread the budget towards LOCAL offices EFFECTIVELY managing on a LOCAL basis. Again, far to much sense in that type of move, so again, something I suspect we will never see.

Cheers,
Nog

 

[tofinofish]

DFO has been presented with numerous suggestions and advice in this regard over many years. On each occasion they simply dismissed them with a sneer suggesting the system they have in place is "working". Yeah, right, working for who?

As I understand it they are now moving towards something a tad more realistic regarding halibut (and other species). Took a crisis of this magnitude to get them off their sorry lazy asses though.



"Should be". Likely never happen though. The political clout the "Race Card" pulls is enough to scare the living chit out of everyone in DFO headquarters and right up to the PM's office. I sincerely doubt we will ever see the day that ANY politico grows a big enough set to deal with this issue head on. In fact, they go right out of their way to demand the "Hands Off" approach to the front line troops pretty well everywhere in the province. The Stamp and the Fraser are shining examples thereof.

Sculpin, you are absolutely correct. DFO is amongst the most "top-heavy" of the ministries there is. A simple and quick look at the budget dispersal's clearly indicate that Kent Street sucks up many times over the operations on any of our three coasts. And there lies much of the problems that department creates. Ministers come and go like the wind. Firmly entrenched are the long-term bureaucrats who survive change after change after change on the political front. It is these same bureaucrats who design and implement the policies of mismanagement in Canada on a forever reoccurring basis and are basically unaccountable & indestructible. It very much is they who are the problem. Best case scenario: Strip the headquarters offices of 85% of these Dead Weights, leaving simply a Minister's office and a few support staff, and spread the budget towards LOCAL offices EFFECTIVELY managing on a LOCAL basis. Again, far to much sense in that type of move, so again, something I suspect we will never see.

Cheers,
Nog

Agreed Fully Nog. We hear the same from within DFO as well..

 

[Derby]

Where exactly have you personally been sitting in and participating over the past 7 years "Sculpin"? More pointless attacks. Please don't fret, when we have everything ready, there will be plenty of information for you to digest.

Same quesion for you-where have you participated in the last 7 years?

 

[Ding Dong!]

Same quesion for you-where have you participated in the last 7 years?

In a number of areas around Vancouver Island and the LM. My question to you; Why does your direction have to be the only way? There is a myriad of people from all sectors whom are willing to help, they are interested in working together and they are interested in building long term relationships with all of the stakeholders who share in the use of common fishery resources of Canada. The big issue is that nothing can be accomplished without consensus. DFO will undoubtedly continue to arbitrarily make decisions without the consensus of all stakeholders, normally they will continue with the status quot. Without attitude, have you ever personally made an effort to reach out to any other sectors on behalf of your group? Have you compassionately listened to any of their concerns, or have you shared your concerns with them in a way that was non threatening? This is not, and never will be a short term solution. Everyone(all sectors) must realize this and be prepared to listen, and share.

 

[Cuba Libre]

There is a myriad of people from all sectors whom are willing to help, they are interested in working together and they are interested in building long term relationships with all of the stakeholders who share in the use of common fishery resources of Canada.

And which fairytale have you been reading? We all sit around the campfire and sing Kumbya???? Wonder what would have happened in Egypt if they had taking your approach and tried to "Talk things out". ?


Yup.... still trolling.................

 

[h-core]

My question to you; Why does your direction have to be the only way?

Because all these "solutions" somehow revolve around the sport sector buying or leasing quota from the slipper skippers. It isn't going to happen!!!! There are many ways we could all come together to pressure DFO to do a better job, but as far as realocating quota goes there is no way in hell creating a third user group is a smart idea.