Halibut issue

[searun]

Agree with you on the hali point - I was commenting only on the recreational sports anglers coming here to fish for fun. also agree with your point on fish farms. Not sure those hali's caught in the US based guide fishing fleet are ever counted in the DFO numbers - the boats may be counted by their landings sure aren't. Another good reason for mandatory catch reporting. We need to replace the current crappy system DFO is using to guesstimate the catch.

 

[fish4all]

Another good point. Again to the best of my knowledge there will be no deduction for last years overage for the upcoming season.

Searun you are correct about the salmon on the west side it is almost all columbia river fish. I must admit I am some what ignorant to the way the salmon commission works that out.

 

[Charlie]

As I understand it the issue is with US sport boats which come across the border at sea and take approximately 100,000 lbs of halibut a year without ever landing at a Canadian port thereby contributing nothing to the Canadian economy. What is particularly upsetting is that the US has laws in place that make doing this in reverse essentially impossible for Canadians, so it is a one way street.

It is closer to 30-35,000 pounds landed in Neah Bay. Those halibut are actually counted by WDFW!

I can't seem to find information concerning the economic value to the U.S., or for that matter any Canadian contribution of all those U.S. salmon being caught in BC? Oh wait... I do recall the U.S. paying Canada approximately $100 million since 1985, for us to be allowed to catch our own fish! There are NO U.S. laws in place that make the reverse impossible. You would just need to find where halibut is actually open to sport in Area 2A. If there were a "one-way street," that street would probably be running more towards Canada - not from it!

Now if our politicians and DFO had already addressed this inequity by treating the Americans the same way; that 100,000 lbs of halibut would have gone a fair ways in the Canadian recreational halibut fishery last year. Just another example of DFO and the politicians dropping the ball. But we all know DFO’s only real mandate is to promote fish farms and give away our wild fish to private ownership who now want us to buy it back or lease it from them, - unfreaking believable.

The amount of halibut the American catch? That is actually very small! Have you ever noticed, there was only 3,724 TOTAL NON-resident annual licence issued, compared to 150,600 annual resident? 1-5 day permits for residents was 60,682, compared to 37,223 non-resident? Considering less than 70% of those non-resident actually even fished or catch a halibut - that makes them awfully good or a mute point, doesn't it? The majority of your halibut is indeed retained by Canadians! Annual limits would have little affect on any "American"!

Considering the total sport catch was 1.092 MILLION pounds, even if there were 100,000 pounds total catch by non-residents, with or without that the sport still exceeded that UNFAIR 12% allowcation - that my friend is the problem.

I would highly recommend, NOT trying to bring ANY politicans in to this, other than addressing the UNFAIR 88/12 split. To try and open any discussions with the U.S., IPHC, and especially trying to tie this to the Pacific Salmon Treaty, will not and would not work. That would NOT benefit ANYONE in BC, what so ever, in any way! Let that dog lay! That would just jump up and bite everyone in BC, including the commercials!

 

[Rockfish]

It is closer to 30-35,000 pounds landed in Neah Bay. Those halibut are actually counted by WDFW!

I can't seem to find information concerning the economic value to the U.S., or for that matter any Canadian contribution of all those U.S. salmon being caught in BC? Oh wait... I do recall the U.S. paying Canada approximately $100 million since 1985, for us to be allowed to catch our own fish! There are NO U.S. laws in place that make the reverse impossible. You would just need to find where halibut is actually open to sport in Area 2A. If there were a "one-way street," that street would probably be running more towards Canada - not from it!



The amount of halibut the American catch? That is actually very small! Have you ever noticed, there was only 3,724 TOTAL NON-resident annual licence issued, compared to 150,600 annual resident? 1-5 day permits for residents was 60,682, compared to 37,223 non-resident? Considering less than 70% of those non-resident actually even fished or catch a halibut - that makes them awfully good or a mute point, doesn't it? The majority of your halibut is indeed retained by Canadians! Annual limits would have little affect on any "American"!

Considering the total sport catch was 1.092 MILLION pounds, even if there were 100,000 pounds total catch by non-residents, with or without that the sport still exceeded that UNFAIR 12% allowcation - that my friend is the problem.

I would highly recommend, NOT trying to bring ANY politicans in to this, other than addressing the UNFAIR 88/12 split. To try and open any discussions with the U.S., IPHC, and especially trying to tie this to the Pacific Salmon Treaty, will not and would not work. That would NOT benefit ANYONE in BC, what so ever, in any way! Let that dog lay! That would just jump up and bite everyone in BC, including the commercials!

Neah bay is not the only source of US sport boats fishing in Canadian waters although a major one. As to the total lbs of halibut caught by US recreational anglers in Canadian waters, my understanding is that no one really knows, just somewhat crude estimates, which is in itself a problem. As for barriers to Canadian sports boats fishing halibut in US Waters, I recall reading on this forum that we need to have a US guide on board but if that is incorrect perhaps someone could confirm it for me. I know of few if any west coast Canadian boats that go to US waters to fish halibut but there are a fair number of US boats which come to Canadian waters. Perhaps I am just not aware of it.

This discussion is really about halibut and there is little value in clouding the issue with salmon. We catch US hatchery and river sourced salmon in Canadian waters and the US catches fish from our rivers in US waters.

We are in total agreement that the major issue for us is the ridicules 88/12 halibut allocation. In Washington State and Alaska there appears to be a much fairer allocation.

 

[searun]

searun; For the most part, the sport sector has already addressed pertinent issues related to the Law and Act's that are key to continue on with. Once noted and addressed in the correct manor, the statements will not be ignored by the Fed or DFO.

Inventing the enemy, us against them mentality is the main curtailment to the entire success in changing the shortcomings that the rec sector has been experiencing. It was the rec sector who took the first swing at the commercial sector and still to this day continues to jab at them. The commercials are simply reacting to the sport sectors original attack, while they volley back and forth, all effort is slowly becoming fruitless. Simply stop the attack tactics, start working on the long term solution, no one can fault anyone for creating new friends, but creating enemies will always have its critics. Would you rather be known for implementing positive pressure and developing vast solutions that actually work? Or would you prefer to continue to rob Peter to pay Paul? By making such demands that have no real recognized consequence for either party other than to take business away from one another, again nothing accomplished.

I know that you will undoubtedly be disappointed with my generic answer, it is however at this time all that I am prepared to give to you for now. This does not mean that I won't help you with some ideas in the near future, it just means that my answers are more complicated or may give the implication of something that I am not at this moment prepared to divulge. In good faith, I will answer you very soon.

So Ding Dong, that post was Feb 7/11. We are now more than a month down the road and I'm still waiting patiently for specific answers. You claim to be working on a grand plan that will bring about a comprehensive solution. You claim to have a team working in the background - big things planned, be patient, all will be revealed. Time to hold you accountable for your claims, or is it possible there really is no substance and this is nothing but a troll? I'm not trying to be difficult, simply looking for accountability when claims are made.

 

[Ding Dong!]

So Ding Dong, that post was Feb 7/11. We are now more than a month down the road and I'm still waiting patiently for specific answers. You claim to be working on a grand plan that will bring about a comprehensive solution. You claim to have a team working in the background - big things planned, be patient, all will be revealed. Time to hold you accountable for your claims, or is it possible there really is no substance and this is nothing but a troll? I'm not trying to be difficult, simply looking for accountability when claims are made.

I think that you would have a far better gain, and move further forward by holding DFO accountable, rather than a tarred & feathered lowly troll; don't you think so?

Please, how many years has it taken for this sector to get to where you are today? Show me the claims that I made that said that what we were working on were solutions, or the be all to end all? LOL

We are working on ideas to move things forward, to bring groups together, and to help develop vision for our future; not short term antiquated, selfish one sided determinations.

You demand and expect answers that will solve all of the problems and issues that the masses have not solved in the last decade to instantly come into fruition as though there was a mystical potion and flowery end. Be reasonable, don't be an idiot!

Are you really looking for a long term mutually beneficial solution for all sectors, or are you more concerned about your business?

 

[Cuba Libre]

I think that you would have a far better gain, and move further forward by holding DFO accountable, rather than a tarred & feathered lowly troll; don't you think so?


We are working on ideas to move things forward, to bring groups together, and to help develop vision for our future; not short term antiquated, selfish one sided determinations.




Who the hell is "WE"????? More trolls?

 

[Ding Dong!]

I think that you would have a far better gain, and move further forward by holding DFO accountable, rather than a tarred & feathered lowly troll; don't you think so?


We are working on ideas to move things forward, to bring groups together, and to help develop vision for our future; not short term antiquated, selfish one sided determinations.




Who the hell is "WE"????? More trolls?

"WE" are a group of people who obviously have different views, thoughts and ideas than yours. It really does not matter at this point anyway, for it is way too early for anything to be introduced or shared with anyone that resides from outside of our group. Most of what we are working on has been done so with the help and direction from people who have worked at developing strategies and programs with the Justice Institute, our group holds various individuals who have a vast array of experience with multi party dispute resolution processes. When we are ready, we will share everything with you.

 

[Derby]

"WE" are a group of people who obviously have different views, thoughts and ideas than yours. It really does not matter at this point anyway, for it is way too early for anything to be introduced or shared with anyone that resides from outside of our group. Most of what we are working on has been done so with the help and direction from people who have worked at developing strategies and programs with the Justice Institute, our group holds various individuals who have a vast array of experience with multi party dispute resolution processes. When we are ready, we will share everything with you.

You are sport fisherman gone to the dark side

 

[traveller]

Ding Dong,

You have been esoteric, misinformed, and antagonistic, all rolled into one. You have never taken part in the organized process, you have never sat across the table from the various reps from each sector, and you have never been to the IPHC meetings.

IMO You give strange rambling dissertations on quasi intellectual disjointed legal perspectives. IMO Troll is actually a compliment for your postings. I have taken several courses from the Justice Institute, and enjoyed them and the people who instructed them...to suggest that they are working with you boggles my currently over worked and somewhat tired mind, I admit. Derby has it right...you have crossed a bridge, left reality, gone to another place ...please leave us alone for sanity sake.

Traveller

traveller

 

[searun]

Well Ding Dong, I'm surprised (or maybe not) you have such a selective memory. Review your posts. Many times you promised to share a detailed and specific plan to effectively address this very complicated issue. I recall being chastised on a few posts for not being more patient. All I'm trying to do is hold you accountable for making those claims and calling you out to deliver, or in the alternative if you can't deliver then I know to ignore your promises as they are only empty rhetoric. I judge people's reputations and their word based on outcomes not on promises. Words are empty without actions to back them up.

If you in fact do have such a plan, it would be a breath of fresh air - over to you and your leagues of troops to deliver so we can take some positive steps to resolve this issue.

 

[Ding Dong!]

Ding Dong,

You have been esoteric, misinformed, and antagonistic, all rolled into one. You have never taken part in the organized process, you have never sat across the table from the various reps from each sector, and you have never been to the IPHC meetings.

IMO You give strange rambling dissertations on quasi intellectual disjointed legal perspectives. IMO Troll is actually a compliment for your postings. I have taken several courses from the Justice Institute, and enjoyed them and the people who instructed them...to suggest that they are working with you boggles my currently over worked and somewhat tired mind, I admit. Derby has it right...you have crossed a bridge, left reality, gone to another place ...please leave us alone for sanity sake.

Traveller

traveller

I am not at all suggesting that the JI is working with us, I am stating that individuals who have developed strategies and programs for the JI are helping us form and develop our program that will help pull groups together to work at creating equitable change. Show me where business battling business is good for the rest of the people of Canada or BC for that matter; frankly, expending your energy on what you don't want will not give you what you do want.

 

[Ding Dong!]

Well Ding Dong, I'm surprised (or maybe not) you have such a selective memory. Review your posts. Many times you promised to share a detailed and specific plan to effectively address this very complicated issue. I recall being chastised on a few posts for not being more patient. All I'm trying to do is hold you accountable for making those claims and calling you out to deliver, or in the alternative if you can't deliver then I know to ignore your promises as they are only empty rhetoric. I judge people's reputations and their word based on outcomes not on promises. Words are empty without actions to back them up.

If you in fact do have such a plan, it would be a breath of fresh air - over to you and your leagues of troops to deliver so we can take some positive steps to resolve this issue.

You are free to do what ever it is you like, it is your time and energy; you will however have to wait, as I am not the leader of the group that I am working with.

 

[searun]

You are free to do what ever it is you like, it is your time and energy; you will however have to wait.

Is that the best you got? Weak. Thought so. Now I know to put you on ignore. Rhetoric is all you got, nothing concrete.

 

[Ding Dong!]

Is that the best you got? Weak. Thought so. Now I know to put you on ignore. Rhetoric is all you got, nothing concrete.

Give it a rest, how many years has SFI and SFAB been trying to develop a resolution? If you think that any program or change will happen in a few months, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[searun]

Give it a rest, how many years has SFI and SFAB been trying to develop a resolution? If you think that any program or change will happen in a few months, you are sadly mistaken.

DD, I'm feeding you a diet of what you have been spear chucking at others on this board for a long time, so you should recognize it. Guess I'm just tired of watching you bash others with no accountability for your actions. As I have said before, nothing wrong with stating your views in an honest manner, just don't make false claims...that is just disingenuous. Calling you out to deliver - which based on past performance tells me it will not happen. That's why i'm calling your posts for what they are...rhetoric. Sad to see you cross over to the dark side bud.

As for the SFI, your "personal" involvement with them = 0. SFAB = zero involvement - you have never sat on that main board - I never saw you there once. SFAC, yes you have some involvement at the meetings. So I'm at a loss to explain how you can be an expert on any of those processes when you haven't been directly involved. Based on what I see, you are just feeding us a line and using the information you get to keep your commie brothers in the loop. That info trail just ended, we are closing the loop.

 

[Ding Dong!]

DD, I'm feeding you a diet of what you have been spear chucking at others on this board for a long time, so you should recognize it. Guess I'm just tired of watching you bash others with no accountability for your actions. As I have said before, nothing wrong with stating your views in an honest manner, just don't make false claims...that is just disingenuous. Calling you out to deliver - which based on past performance tells me it will not happen. That's why i'm calling your posts for what they are...rhetoric. Sad to see you cross over to the dark side bud.

As for the SFI, your "personal" involvement with them = 0. SFAB = zero involvement - you have never sat on that main board - I never saw you there once. SFAC, yes you have some involvement at the meetings. So I'm at a loss to explain how you can be an expert on any of those processes when you haven't been directly involved. Based on what I see, you are just feeding us a line and using the information you get to keep your commie brothers in the loop. That info trail just ended, we are closing the loop.

Interesting diet that you have chosen for me to digest; comically you have absolutely no idea what we are working on, and that simply eats at you. It is totally contrary to what you are trying to imply and that you are suggesting. Interesting how you have implied that I am an expert, or that I see myself as being some kind of "Halibut War" problem solving guru. No, I am not, nor are you or many other people. There are many participants of this website that have offered good helpful informative information, who also, like my self have not been part of SFI, SFAB, HAB, IPHC, and many other aspects of the process. How ever, there are many individuals who are deeply involved and want to help create solutions that work for everyone.

Maybe you'll recognize this, and maybe you won't; Since you know me, you will already recognize that I dive deep into the data, then trust my gut. I dive as deeply as I can into the facts and figures of a difficult situation. I use logic and reason to interpret the data. I make informed estimates based on past history and experience. Then I go with my gut instincts. Instinct has a lot to do with timing. you have to be patient and wait for your instincts to tell you the best time to make your move.

The interesting segment, as part of my observation is that no one is seeing the opportunities before them. Most of you are business people, entrepreneurs, hard working delegates; none of you are seeing the little crumbs that are leading to the bigger picture. You all are expecting everyone to go to you, to listen to you, to hear you, to abide you. You all speak about working outside of the box to find the solutions that you need. I hate to break it to you, but you are so inside the box that you can't see beyond it's walls. There are people available, the right people, the ones that you need to find and contact and ask if you can hear what they have to say. Ask them to meet with you and ask if you can discuss things, find common ground. They are there; It will be tuff to work beyond the brand that you have created and called them, but they are there.

Needless to say, it is all taking time, my time, from the inside out. Take it for what ever you imagine that it is; The bread crumbs were laid leading you long ago, you just did not see it.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

There are people available, the right people, the ones that you need to find and contact and ask if you can hear what they have to say. Ask them to meet with you and ask if you can discuss things, find common ground. They are there; It will be tuff to work beyond the brand that you have created and called them, but they are there.

Can you tell me who some of these people are? I am not in the loop as to who these people may be. I would dearly love to start some dialogue with some of them to get this ball rolling and find out if there is anything that I can bring to the table to start making progress, if not then at the very least the conversation with them would most likely be enlightening to find out where we are and where we have to get to.

If you do not want to publish their names feel free to PM me. I just do not know who these people are, there may be some that are more enlightened than I am and have a way of getting in contact with them, but again, I don't know these people either.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Regards Jay.

 

[GLG]

DD’s breadcrumb = slipper skipper. Fish-hunter if you are interested in contact names I can send you some of them. It’s not hard to figure out if you look here.
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Ops/VRNdirectory/LicReportSelect.cfm
Do a search on Halibut and then download the text file. Take the text file and pull it into Excel for the purpose of sorting. Remove the FN data and try a sort on OAL (m). That would be over all length. Do a formula to convert from meter to feet and look at you results. My guess would be for boats that are 9 - 30 feet you would find a slipper skipper.
Goggle and the phonebook is your friend. Most of the companies keep a low profile, can you blame them, but the info can be purchased from the provincial government.
https://www.bconline.gov.bc.ca/corp_reg.html
Try goggle search for some of the people’s names and you might find, that as a concerned citizen, they have sent letters to the newspapers sharing their outrage that the recreation sector demands the allocation be changed. Others have websites that are claiming to have quota for lease. It’s out there but personally don’t think any would want to simply donate their quota back to the people of Canada where it belongs. If they do want to give it up they have an option to turn it in to the government under this program.
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/picfi-ipcip/acquisition-eng.htm


GLG

 

[Lipripper]

Is it just me or do the first 15 names have licences attached to sport boats?