Where to now?

Hello, did you all forget why we are at the % we are?
That is due to the Commercial sector and their paid lobbyist's.
They still are using them and guess how they are paid for, through halibut sales.

So, the commercial group is not interested in discussing this. Certainly not the ones in power.
Fish4all is not in power.

OBD,

At this stage you are correct.

with the existing 88/12, and the demands from the sport fishing sector to take quota from the commies who actually use the fishery we will be in for a long battle. And yes, they are a strong lobby to go up against.

That's why I'm suggesting approaching the issue in a manner that divides their ranks and not ours. Getting the commercial fishermen that actually do the work in the fishery on our side would cut the "enemy's" ranks by over a third and place their share of the lobby on our side. This would be a big win for our cause both politically and financially. Then we'd be down to fighting the Slipper Skippers alone.

As long as we are of the belief that we must negatively impact the commercial fishing sector financially in order to classify a "win" this battle will simply continue to consume time, energy, and resources for all involved.

If you could promote a plan that would actually lower expenses and increase profit to the commercial sector, even with a reduction in quota, I'm sure you would receive little in the way of argument. Keep in mind that just taking quota from those actually using it effects their livelihoods and investment for equipment etc., and given the same circumstances I doubt if any of us would react any differently. I know if someone were attacking my ability to earn a living and support my family I'd be up in arms about it.

Having re-read many of the posts regarding this topic, the only time I've seen the commies chime in angrily is when we are talking this way. Several of them posting to the site have openly stated that they want to work with the sport sector to resolve the issue. And the way to resolve it is to join forces to take on the slipper skippers so we can all benefit. Your remarks about the "commercial sector" not wanting to discuss it is only half true. As much as they have tried to split us into recreational and Sport commercial fishermen, they are also two groups ie the actual fishermen and the slipper skippers. It's far easier to differentiate those two groups than it is ours.

And a key word here is "Fishermen", not "Business men". You and they are both on the water. Slipper skippers are not. These guys have nothing in common with fishermen.

And you're right, fish4all isn't in power. And neither are the other commercial fishermen. And neither are we. But by joining forces with the commercial end users we can reduce the power of the slipper skippers and improve our odds of getting things changed.
 
Dont go getting to intent on inviting the commercials yet... remember Duncan will be the person that calls the shots on who gets invited---wait for it......Wait for it.
 
If the actual commercial fishermen were to join with us he'd have no choice but to invite all of us. He couldn't invite only part of the commercial component without looking like a complete idiot and paid for politician.
 
He has already said that he will be consulting ALL sectors, Aboriginal, commercial and sport. Remember he has a mandate for the next 4 years to do what he wants. Lets see what he is going to do before we nudge him.
 

Matter of fact, I am trying to feed my family and friends. I have sisters that appreciate getting a few pieces of fish ever now and then. Heck they like it so much they even go buy it in the grocery store. Sadly at 17 bucks a pound it’s only for special occasions. Wouldn’t it be funny if it came from your boat? Yep you bet I bring a piece or two over to the old lady across the street. She doesn’t speak very good English but I know she needs it. It can’t be easy living on a military widow’s pension. You see its part of my heritage to hunt and fish and to share it with my family and neighbours. It’s been like that in my family for hundreds of years in this country. I suspect it’s the same way in your family, part of your heritage too.

Well we almost agree on this. Except I don’t see any difference between someone from BC and someone from anywhere else in Canada. Are you saying we are special Canadians and should have special privileges based on our postal code? I don’t get that concept. Perhaps because you have lived the life of the “selected few quota holders” it’s something only you understand. As for limitations, I’m all for that, how about two per day and four in possession with the season as it was before.

No worries there as that would be against the law and our neighbours down south respect our rules. If you know of some shady operators I’m sure DFO would be happy to investigate. They don’t take kindly to poachers, local or visitors.


You commercial fishermen should be harvesting to help feed the people of this country. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem when I am reduced on my allowable catch and you are exporting the vast majority of the fish out of the country. You see the needs of Canadians are not being meet with that situation. After all it’s the Canadian peoples resource not your private domain. Magna Carta settled that question long ago

GLG

Well Put......Thanks,
 
Bassblaster, you are very correct on the points that you have mentioned in your posts, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

However, the challenge is to get the Active Quota Holders to band together against the Non-Active Quota Holders (Slipper Skippers). Most of the Active guys actually have to purchase additional quota from the Non-Active guys to end up with enough quota to realistically fish the year. These guys don't like this, they have to pay most of their potential profits for fish that they haven't even caught yet to guys that don't even fish for a living, (that's got to taste pretty sour). If the Active guys stand up against the Non-Active Quota Holders, then they will stand to suffer consequences for their actions (they will be refused the "privilege" to purchase additional quota). The only way that they stand a chance is for all of them to band together against the Non-Active Quota Holders and hold their ground. But, this will be almost impossible for all of them to do, because lots of them have mortgaged everything that they have to fish and can't afford to risk a stand against the Slipper Skippers and not fish for a year or more to "possibly" win over and convince DFO to see their and our points, and enact a change.

DFO is trying to do the same thing to the Sport Fishing Guides right now with this "Experi-mental Halibut Program (that they dreamed up or were suggested to present to us by the Slipper Skippers). They are trying to capitalize on some of the guides that have invested too much into guiding other sport fishermen, and can't afford to not guide for a season. DFO (and Slipper Skippers) are hoping that these guides will "have" to buy into the program to survive the year, and to keep their clients happy. They are hoping that they can get some of them by the balls just like the Slipper Skippers have some of the Active Fishermen by the balls also, and they can give a squeeze anytime they like just let you know that they have you.

This cycle has to stop, and it starts with cutting the head off the serpent(s).
We need to shake the Etch-A-Sketch and start drawing a new picture here folks.:)

Fish4all, correct me if I am off base on the Commercial aspect here. If I am I don't think I'm very far off.
 
An active commercial halibut fisherman is just a slipper skipper in waiting. Put yourself in his shoes. Why not put in your time and then when your ready to pull the pin, sell the boat and live off the dough that will start landing in your mailbox.

In a perfect world we would get guys like fish4all to see what was fair but we don’t live in a perfect world and this is all about the money, his money.

[FONT=&quot]GLG[/FONT]
 
Hunter: nope your not far off. One question I would have(and by the way i dont lease out fish) is who decides what is a "slipper skipper". We have boats that are waiting for an increase in TAC to be viable again. There are widows that use the lease to survive. There are mostly older guys that have invested a fair chunk of change into quotas as a form of retirement because that is how gov set it up. Now I don't agree with all of the above but I would not be sure where to draw the line.
I would have to say that there still needs to be work done in the rec fishery as well.... Starting with an actual guiding license..

GLG: Can't argue with all your points. I even agree with some of them. Who knows maybe over that beer some day we can discuss it.
 
The elephant in the room: The hidden costs of leasing individual transferable fishing quotas
Evelyn Pinkerton, Danielle N. Edwards

4.1. Factor 1. There are large wealth effects from the initial allocation of quota
Vessels that were not granted quota in the initial granting process must recover their fixed costs, trip costs and lease fees. Since quota owners retain 70% of the catch value, fishing costs must be recovered from the 30% of catch value that remains for the skipper, crew, and vessel share. Vessels granted quota can cover both their fixed and variable costs from the full 100% of landed value, and can then afford to pay higher lease prices for additional quota, needing only to cover trip costs. Those vessels operating with granted quota are therefore more financially viable than new entrants and can afford to pay higher quota lease fees by virtue of the wealth effects accrued through the initial granting process.This eventually had the effect of bidding up the lease price.

4.2. Factor 2.
Many quota owners prefer to lease their quota out through a processor as a broker because the processor is in a better position to get the highest price and because, as several fishermen stated, they do not want to be "guilted by other fishermen" about the high lease price they are asking. Similarly, many lessee fishermen do not wish to deal directly with the quota owner because of their hostility toward the high lease prices. High lease prices violate the previous norms of the share system in which license-owning skippers and crew were considered co-venturers and both rental skippers and crew took a far higher percentage of the catch value. Because a "moral economy" persists in the Heel, and because reputation matters in securing the best arrangements, quota owners prefer to keep their leasing arrangements secret. Processors compete to secure quota at the beginning of the season because of their desire to guarantee delivery of fish to themselves [20, interviews].5 Securing a large amount of quota pre-season also puts processors in the best bargaining position to re-lease the quota in tum under the most advantageous conditions and to maintain relationships with reliable fishermen. Even when fishermen make leasing arrangements directly with quota owners, these leases are normally financed by a processor and, therefore, the fish is delivered to this processor as part of vthe bargain. Processors are brokers of most of the leases because they can afford to pay more upfront, both because of their access to capital and because of their power In allocating fishing opportunity through control of a large amount of quota. It is advantageous for fishermen to have ready access to additional quota during the season if they happen upon more fish than they currently hold quota for. The price of quota when it is leased out to fishermen by the processors is confidential; it varies with arrangements and the bargaining power of the lessee. The lessee usually agrees to deliver catch from other fisheries to the processor as part of the arrangement.There is, therefore, asymmetric information between buyers and sellers of quota leases (considered a transaction cost by economists, along with search and information costs, bargaining and decision costs 12.1]), which confers market power to quota owners and to a lesser extent to the processors who buy up and reallocate quota leases. Processors may not charge a fee for this transaction, but the guaranteed delivery of the fish to them gives them leverage over the price of the catch. This may be an even more important form of market power. The resulting allocation of quota leases, and the stated and unstated terms under which they are allocated, are not the product of a freely operating market with open competition.

Economists have generalized from a few cases in the trawl fishery in which lease transactions operate transparently and without appreciable cost, and have assumed that this is the rule in the halibut ITQ fishery: "To facilitate the clearing of the ITQ market, private quota trading companies have emerged. The companies have become so efficient that fishermen can call from their vessels, immediately after realizing the need for additional quota, and arrange for and complete the transfer of ITQ by the time that they reach port to off load their catch" [17]. While this practice may occur in the trawl fishery,1 it normally occurs in halibut between a lessee and the processor who leases to them or finances their lease.

4.3. Factor 3.Capital markets are not functioning well and there is market distortion
The initial fishermen grantees of quota, the processors, the investors, and new fishermen who have purchased quota distort the leasing market because they have far more access to capital than the lessees.This situation is exacerbated by expected future capital investment by the federal government, which leads to speculative investment in quotas. Unresolved aboriginal claims to access rights were not included in the initial allocationof quota, although the Nisga'a Treaty had been under negotiation since the 1970s and both federal policy and court decisions pointed to the fact that aboriginal people would end up with access rights recognized. Therefore, once ITQI; had been created and became transferable, the expectation of federal buy-back of quotas from funds coming from outside the industry to settle aboriginal claims had an inflationary effect on price. This caused other sectors to reinvest in the fishery because they had extra capital, and could gain certain tax advantages [22].Investors in halibut quota expected a 10% return on their investment in 2002 and treated quota as stock market investments [20]. Future federal investments in aboriginal ITQI; is the one factor which has been identified as a problem by economists [22], although it is not seen as a significant threat to the system.

Yep... nothing wrong with that system IF you are a "processor" or "slipper skipper"!
 
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Hunter: nope your not far off. One question I would have(and by the way i dont lease out fish) is who decides what is a "slipper skipper". We have boats that are waiting for an increase in TAC to be viable again. There are widows that use the lease to survive. There are mostly older guys that have invested a fair chunk of change into quotas as a form of retirement because that is how gov set it up. Now I don't agree with all of the above but I would not be sure where to draw the line.
I would have to say that there still needs to be work done in the rec fishery as well.... Starting with an actual guiding license..

GLG: Can't argue with all your points. I even agree with some of them. Who knows maybe over that beer some day we can discuss it.

I hear what you are saying. I (and this is only my opinion) would classify a Non-Active Quota Holder ("Slipper Skipper") as one who is obviously not actively fishing the license(s) that they hold, don't have any intention of fishing said licenses or ability to safely and realistically fish their license(s), (I am referring in the latter to the size of the registered fishing vessels that some of the Quota Holders have listed as their "fishing vessel"). Basically anyone that is solely using the Quota as a dividend investment. Oh what about if they don't even live in the country?, (don't think that they should be allowed to have Quota if they don't even live here).

Anyone that doesn't actively use their Quota for say a year or perhaps two due to such things as health, family loss, mechanical problems, loss of vessel, things of this nature, should not in my opinion be labeled as a "Slipper Skipper". But,,, they would and should have to be working towards getting active again ASAP or risk losing the Quota. Now for sure this will disrupt the ones that are in it purely for the no efforts needed pay-cheque. However, if the Active Fishermen are not having to lease quota from the Non-Active Fishermen, then they will be more profitable year to year and this will allow them to put money away for retirement just like every other regular Canadian Citizen. There should be no free meal tickets given out by the government here. I own my own business, and I can tell you that for 100% certainty there will be NO meal ticket for me when I stop working, just my real tangible assets if I can sell them.

No question, this is a complex issue, one that the government had a hand in creating, and one that the government has to stand up and recognize, take responsibility for and correct it properly. If they refuse, then as has been mentioned before, we are all going to have to find common ground to unite upon and force them to fix it, even if we have to spoon feed it to them.

Cheers.
 
Fish4 I hear what you are saying and do know of a widow who is busting her butt to make a living after her husband died and if she had a quota I would not be happy if she lost that. That being said I do not know much about the commercial system but I do know when big money is involved there is sure to be a lot of unfairness when it comes to the average joe. I would definitely like to see the uber-rich cut out of this system or make them wait in line like every average person.
 
Fish4 I hear what you are saying and do know of a widow who is busting her butt to make a living after her husband died and if she had a quota I would not be happy if she lost that. That being said I do not know much about the commercial system but I do know when big money is involved there is sure to be a lot of unfairness when it comes to the average joe. I would definitely like to see the uber-rich cut out of this system or make them wait in line like every average person.

Exactly, if she is trying to make a go of it, keep the boat running, employing a crew, working the Quota that her husband had, AWESOME! She should definitely have first right to keep the Quota. Yes the Fat-Cats should be cut out if they are not actively using the Quota. The problem is the very rich are pulling the cream for themselves, and don't give a damned about everyone else, or what they are doing with a CANADIAN Resource.

Where to now? Straight to the drawing board to re-do the points that they got wrong when they made the Transferable Quota System.
 
You don't have to apologize Holmes, that is your position and I respect it.
 
sorry guys, im more insensitive than u guys, if yer not fishing it yer out, period. i dont care if yer a widow, an orphan, or some guy sitting in hawaii, fish it or lose it, plain and simple, you wanna sit on your arse and collect money?, go rite ahead, it's called the stock market.....holmes*

Agreed, fish it or lose it. A quota system has to be a non commodity. It should simply be a number of fish that quota holder is licensed to catch in a given season and there should be no value attached to that period. The fish are owned by the crown and should never be given away. Quota systems are a simple method of controlling catch, they should never become a tradable commodity that can be bought and sold between "owners."

We wouldn't have the problem to the degree we do now if they took away the transferable ownership element of the quota. I would think it would work better for the actual commercial hali fishermen as they too would be more profitable as they wouldn't need to purchase quota - one less expense.

Time to end the transferrable halibut quota system as it exists today. Time to modernize the allocation system so we can ensure all users of the resource have a fair share in the fishery. And, further it is time to rationalize the fleet and get it down to a level that can sustain the guys who are actually fishing. If we slowly rationalize the fleet each year as fishermen retire their vessels, it will be a less painful way to get the guys who fish into a more profitable situation and allow us to work together over time to achieve a balance that allows the sport fishery and commercial fishery to exist in harmony.
 
Can anyone tell me if the post I made after Searun's yesterday morning ever made it to the board, or was it taken down by the moderators. It seems to have magically disappeared after I posted it. Just curious.
 
There needs to be some kind of quota transfer, as by catch must be harvested and not dumped over the side, dead like the old days because you don’t have quota.
The trick would be to find a balance between the temporary transfer of quota for reasons of by catch and the leasing of quota for profit.
GLG

Fish4all getting thirsty for that beer. Can you tell your buddies to just transfer 7% to us and be done with it? Call it the 7% solution.:eek:
 
Can anyone tell me if the post I made after Searun's yesterday morning ever made it to the board, or was it taken down by the moderators. It seems to have magically disappeared after I posted it. Just curious.
Nope, the last one I saw go up was Searun, until your current post. Maybe it went into the post abyss. I hate when that happens, type out a good one and hit post reply,,,, NOTHING, damn,,,,, 1,2,3,4,5,6,,,, start again.
 
There needs to be some kind of quota transfer, as by catch must be harvested and not dumped over the side, dead like the old days because you don’t have quota.
The trick would be to find a balance between the temporary transfer of quota for reasons of by catch and the leasing of quota for profit.
GLG
Yup,for sure, however the government should hold and maintain this "by-catch quota" "reserve quota" for the rest of the ground fishing fleet so that it is available for when they have by-catch coming in to the docks. If certain guys have excessively high by-catch consistently, then perhaps there could be a surcharge on the cost (given to the gov.) of the quota that they use, and this could be used to offset costs or compensate the active halibut quota holders that year. What I am getting at here is if there is any particular ground fishing boat that gets into a large by-catch of halibut in an area, but instead of moving to another area, says screw it and continues to take the halibut, thereby reducing the catch available to the Halibut fleet, there needs to be some sort of mechanism in place to prevent negligence. LOTS of DETAILS. Like I said earlier,,, Shake the Etch-A Sketch, and re-draw the program, only this time lets get it right:D
 
Retaining any form of "ownership" over quota will get us exactly into the same problem. Take away the ownership ability and you are left with a very simple system. Catch monitoring for by-catch pitch can be achieved with video monitoring as it is today. The Commercial system today has reasonably good catch monitoring and control. Yes, there are abuses today but it is generally kept at a low rate. Much more could be accomplished through a penalty system that takes away quota rather than fines. That way there is more to lose than the potential rewards for cheating. At the end of the day, we can start unraveling the current problem by removing the ownership aspect.

In this way, if a vessel owner isn't paying a slipper skipper for quota they need less revenue (or fish) to survive - which in turn frees up quota or fish to be re-allocated to other users.
 
And, further it is time to rationalize the fleet and get it down to a level that can sustain the guys who are actually fishing. If we slowly rationalize the fleet each year as fishermen retire their vessels, it will be a less painful way to get the guys who fish into a more profitable situation and allow us to work together over time to achieve a balance that allows the sport fishery and commercial fishery to exist in harmony.

what fleet are you referring to? Perhaps there needs to be some rationalizing of the charter fleet as well.. The commercial fleet has already gone from 435 down to 136 active. don't expect the commercial fleet to take the only hit if we are going to find a compramise

I would gladly chip into the pot to help with the 7%..... if i didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for it and the mortgage on it would dissappear. also if you could prove that we are not already at 20%.
 
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