Tell Them No More Further Chinook Restrictions

People will only support you if you don’t inconvenience them. The best tool is a Public education plan, but that costs money and let’s be honest that’s a major problem for us. ENGO’s are masters of this and never let half truths or outright lies, stop them from fleecing an unwitting, largely urban public for “guilt money”. Unless we can get a central organization that works on behalf of all Canadian fishers, we will never be able to even begin to compete monetarily. Money is power!

We could go a passive route and refuse to purchase licenses or refuse to attend any meetings and therefore remove DFO’s claims of transparency, openness, soliciting input and informing the public Until they take our representatives seriously( they must feel like their banging their heads against the wall) and make a greater effort to connect with the general public, the current system is little more than a ruse. I suspect all decisions are made long before any meetings take place.

The problem with any sort of boycott it’s a risk in that it may aid their end game, which is clearly to end the Public Fishery and make their life easier. You’d also need the media to understand it’s not a bunch of entitled fishers whining, it will be a loss to all Canadians. Family bonding outdoors, parents and grandparents teaching children and exposing them to this lovely piece of nature we, all Canadian possess.

Pretty much all that’s left is political action. While writing letters may accomplish little in some people’s minds, I believe the politicians, whose only mission in life is to get re-elected do notice. Public fishery also needs to become an election issue and that once again could be best accomplished if we had a blanket organization.

DFO is not our friend! Their marching orders do not include supporting Public Fishery, they never were. The bureaucrats in that Department rose to the upper levels by not making waves for their political masters and they are good at it. The current piecemeal restrictions and ridiculous whale sanctuaries are a prime example. Does anyone out there believe a boat trolling on a kicker at 2kts is noise than a Bulk Carrier, Tanker or any other commercial vessel transiting Haro Strait at 15 kts for example? I don’t care if they are outside the boundary of the sanctuary, their noise levels are still so much greater that they would swamp a flotilla of fishing boats inside the boundary. There is no science involved it this foolishness, but it appeased the ENGO’s. So the Minister is happy and that’s all his or her minions care about.

I encourage everyone to continue to bombard the Minister with emails and better yet formal letters. At some point they and who knows, maybe the media will pick it up.

Anyway I’m frustrated and have no faith in the current system! I genuinely feel sorry for those trying so hard to make it work from inside . I in no way want to offend them and hope nothing I wrote did.
 
This will NEVER get broad public support. Like the pipeline protestors you don't need support you need results from government. Do we want to fish or win a popularity contest?
 
I was sent the data last year that has 6800 aprox "data" and if you saw it (btw dfo has it ) we wouldnt be shut down ...guys it has nothing to do with it they can blow smoke up your butt and you can believe it , it has noting to do with data it has to do with not upsetting certain user groups I cant say who as ill be called names and get more hate mail. .
I posed the question a long time ago HOW are you going to get data when fishing is closed and ummmm there is only 6 boats fishing???there was MANY days off Sooke last year where I counted how many boats were on the water with 1 hand... they got what they wanted "GHOST TOWN"..

Here is an Excel file of the data.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L8QAqF7FKNVySqjvRNn-pBx_T4j-mu70/view?usp=sharing

Based on the science the latest acoustic UBC data is to shows Fraser fish do migrate there though. You can't get around it. I agree there should be marked fishery though, and that is insane given how many clipped US fish are present right now. You may have collected data that year , but many didn't when it as tried based on mistrust issues with DFO as you know. As I recall they were just trying to set it up, and get it established. These data collection programs have to be done for several years. That is problem on a handful of guys will do it as it stands,so how does that even help us non-guides?

Nothing against you , but I really wished we had non-guide DNA program in place years ago. I am already tired of it/restrictions and have let avid angler we will be doing it on my boat this year as well as the Georgia Straight data. We have to do more to get our fishery in these areas open, and need to move on.

I don't like it either taking data can reveal things you don't want to see, but if we are talking about pushing for marked select fisheries we need this data. Only way I am afraid.
 
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We requested a response this year with regards to the coal port fishery. IT sheds some light on DFO thinking. We also have no way to get data for it now because its closed. IT also shows why submitting heads is so important. If you say you have mostly us hatchery fish in your area then submitting heads can confirm that. Shutting down an area based on 5 samples of 30 years and of with only 3 were BC origin and cant even confirm where in BC they came from.




Jason/ Jeremy

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this but I was trying to find as much information as I could. I have worked with our Science and RM staff to provide you with the following response. Jason please consider this a response to the LFV motion as well. Can you please forward this to the committee.


The closure for Subareas 29-6, 29-7, 29-9, and 29-10 has been implemented on January 1 since 2016, and is consistent with the Integrated Fishery Management Plan for 2019-2020 (see page 258). Please see below for a summary of the CWT information supporting this closure.



Generally, there is limited data available from this area during January to March over the last 30 years. This could be due to issues with coded-wire tag (CWT) recovery, including:

1.Very little retained catch of Chinook in the area at this time. With the current size limit in place it is possible most encounters are below the size limit and the retained catch is very small; and/or

2.Very little retained catch of adipose-fin-clipped Chinook; and/or

3.If any adipose-fin-clipped Chinook were retained, virtually no CWT samples were provided by anglers and/or collected by the DFO creel survey in these areas at this time since 1979; and/or

4.Incorrect/missing labelling of CWT submissions, which cannot be accurately assigned to a specific fishing area.

Of the data that is available in these areas for the January to March time period, BC-origin fish have been identified. From 1975 to 2018, 3 of the 5 CWT samples labelled as collected from PFMA 29 were BC-origin (the other two were from Washington). Given Chinook from Puget Sound have been mass-marked since the late 1990s, we would expect to see many more CWT heads submitted by anglers if the fish encountered in the area from January to March were mostly US-origin stocks.



We have also looked at the recent the avid angler Genetic Stock Identification information for the surrounding area, unfortunately there is very little close to the closed area. In the SC creel area 29D east (which could include 29-3 and the “Banana”) we have 3 samples collected from undersized released fish in March 2018 – they were ID’d as NEVI, ECVI Fall, and Puget Sound (hatchery). This creel area is not specific to the “Banana” but gives an idea of some of the stock composition in A29 in Jan-Mar. As we move closer to Burrard Inlet, 34 DNA samples were collected during Jan-Mar from 2016-2019. All fish were identified as Columbia River, ECVI Spring/Fall, Fraser Spring/Fall, or Puget Sound stocks.



In addition, the Fraser River estuary and delta is a nursery area for Chinook Salmon. It is expected that stocks from the Fraser River and others nearby would use parts of the Fraser River delta, such as the drop-off areas, sand bar islands and distributary channels, jetties, and other structures as feeding areas that are important for the growth and survival of the stocks. Chinook fry from the Harrison River begin arriving at the Fraser estuary in March, though some Fraser-origin Chinook use the deep-water habitats along the delta throughout year for feeding and rearing. Small Chinook living in these areas that are below the size limit could likely be caught in a recreational fishery; The catch and release mortality rate on these small Chinook is much higher (roughly double) than the level assumed for the legal-sized fish.



Given the above information, to protect Fraser Chinook stocks of concern, the closure of the recreational fishery targeting salmon in Subareas 29-6, 29-7, 29-9, and 29-10will remain in place until further notice.
 
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This will NEVER get broad public support. Like the pipeline protestors you don't need support you need results from government. Do we want to fish or win a popularity contest?
Have to disagree, by the very nature of having to be elected, governments exist on public support. It we can’t get the Public behind us we’re finished, why would any politician care? Most Canadians just want to be non confrontational and unless the cause hits home, not get involved. So who gets the Politicians and media’s attention?

The reason protestors such as those against the pipelines are successful is because they are extremely well organized, loud and inclusive(anyone who doesn’t like government) while the public opposing them is somewhere between apathetic to soft supporting . In addition, looking at the little stage show in Victoria, you can see they managed to cast a pretty large net. You had UVIC students, who were there cuz! You had First Nations who no one will ever go against (political suicide), you had seniors in Tilley hats and ANTIFA all rubbing shoulders. Something for everyone, under the umbrella of anti pipeline. In addition you had a well organized cadre who could ramp up the number of people at will via social media. In fact while I don’t agree with them, I’m impressed by their ability to get the crowds out and make it appear they had wide support.

If we were as well organized as these folks, we likely wouldn’t be getting kicked around like we are. Instead we, to steal a term from the 60’s are assuming the role of the silent majority.
 
GUYS look at all the data the answers are right there....
like i said before and people will say it helps ill never do a book again............ did it 3 times and got it in the butt each and every time , I WILL however do it IF and a BIG IF they give us a season !!!! i bet every angler would do it if they said ok guys here is what we need DNA data so guys go fishing ENJOY yourself... but we need you to fill out the books and dna I would be the first one to jump on as it is now this is the final nail for some in the coffin....Your going to see ALOT of businesses fold like a cheap tent lodges and anything fishing related....
 
... and then the commies, while I appreciate it's how they put food on their tables, most our seafood is exported and not consumed nor is their money exchanged locally.

Broad sweeping statementd based on ignorance are NOT going to help your cause.
Many of the northern troll fleet lost houses last year. Some in Area G as well.
We had a total of three weeks total on the water as our entire season last year.
This looks to be even worse. And btw, ALL of us are local, and ALL of our earnings are locally spent.

So you best be reigning in your accusations based on your total lack of understanding.
Might be a much better idea to sidle up to the troll fleet and see if we might be better off working together.
Hell of a lot better than alienating us.

Nog
 
The politicians will not fix this.

Minister of Fisheries steps into their fancy new office to a pile of briefing reports from the deputy head.

The bureaucrats set the agenda.
If the Minister has a backbone and tries their own agenda, the bureaucrats stall and delay until there is a new Minister. That new Minister steps into their fancy new office to a pile of briefing reports from the deputy head...
 
Broad sweeping statementd based on ignorance are NOT going to help your cause.
Many of the northern troll fleet lost houses last year. Some in Area G as well.
We had a total of three weeks total on the water as our entire season last year.
This looks to be even worse. And btw, ALL of us are local, and ALL of our earnings are locally spent.

So you best be reigning in your accusations based on your total lack of understanding.
Might be a much better idea to sidle up to the troll fleet and see if we might be better off working together.
Hell of a lot better than alienating us.

Nog

why is it going to be worse this year? odds are some lodges will open up late and we won't fish as many chinook in WCVI. Wont that put more quota onto your table?
 
GUYS look at all the data the answers are right there....
like i said before and people will say it helps ill never do a book again............ did it 3 times and got it in the butt each and every time , I WILL however do it IF and a BIG IF they give us a season !!!! i bet every angler would do it if they said ok guys here is what we need DNA data so guys go fishing ENJOY yourself... but we need you to fill out the books and dna I would be the first one to jump on as it is now this is the final nail for some in the coffin....Your going to see ALOT of businesses fold like a cheap tent lodges and anything fishing related....

I guess you should bankrupt then? I know you and that is not what you want. If Area 20 just doesn't the DNA how can fight for a marked select fishery in the JDF? If you guys think your fishery is going to keep going with handing a few CWT heads, and other old data in it won't. Writing was on the wall 2010, and we should have started this way back. We adapt, or quite frankly it is done. Sorry 2018 thing happened to you, but really need to move on.

I know you won't collect data you said it many times. Remember WCVI one mile rule is open based on DNA data. That was a fact.
 
Broad sweeping statementd based on ignorance are NOT going to help your cause.
Many of the northern troll fleet lost houses last year. Some in Area G as well.
We had a total of three weeks total on the water as our entire season last year.
This looks to be even worse. And btw, ALL of us are local, and ALL of our earnings are locally spent.

So you best be reigning in your accusations based on your total lack of understanding.
Might be a much better idea to sidle up to the troll fleet and see if we might be better off working together.
Hell of a lot better than alienating us.

Nog

OK I accept responsibility for a lack of a full understanding of the material facts and agree that it doesn't help the situation to be ignorant and I'll retract things that were said if not correct. It was what was communicated to me by some fellow anglers in the past. If what I stated is wrong then my bad and I take it back and I'll try harder to check the facts next time. What I can tell you for certainty is the bogus regulations passed down by DFO to all sectors puts a lot of pressure and stress on everyone involved whether it be a right to fish and enjoy our natural resources as a citizen and patriot of this country or whether it's what FN groups believe they are entitled to or the commercial sector to allow them to continue their livihood. The pressure makes people point fingers and divides people. Look at what FN chiefs and leaders are saying... They are trying to eliminate what's left with the rec fishery by trying to eliminate catch and release saying high mortality rates and that we are out there dimishinishing their food supply by killing fish that they are entitled to etc.... I have heard of many situations when commercial boats have literally pushed forced rec anglers out of an area where they were there first but the commercial boat wants to deploy their gear in that area... When the rec boats don't want to comply they are told to F off and the commercial boats use their size and Gear to strong arm rec boats out. So the mud slinging goes both ways. No one person or group or sector owns our natural resources. It belongs to everyone. I agree with your statement that we are better off by working together...however, if DFO continues to slash and cut regs that are don't have material science and data backing it up and, to me, seems to be much more aggressive in cuts towards the rec sector, they leave us with a situation where they allocated a few scraps of meat which they call allocation to all sectors... With the scarce allocations it's natural for the different interest groups to hoard and fight for the few pieces of scrap that is provided.
 
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COVID 19 will have an effect on all lodges, guides, tackle mfg’s etc. this year, period.

Who is going to travel this year for anything but work?

The economy will be the next priority and everyone is going to want to be working to pay off their bills.

Spending money on a hobby will not be on many’s agenda, paying rent, Food,taxes etc. will be.

We still do not know when or if the social separation will be over by fall!

Till they have a fix for this, I do not think sportsfishing will be anything like before.


why is it going to be worse this year? odds are some lodges will open up late and we won't fish as many chinook in WCVI. Wont that put more quota onto your table?
 
COVID 19 will have an effect on all lodges, guides, tackle mfg’s etc. this year, period.

Who is going to travel this year for anything but work?

The economy will be the next priority and everyone is going to want to be working to pay off their bills.

Spending money on a hobby will not be on many’s agenda, paying rent, Food,taxes etc. will be.

We still do not know when or if the social separation will be over by fall!

Till they have a fix for this, I do not think sportsfishing will be anything like before.

I agree with this post. Very true.
 
COVID 19 will have an effect on all lodges, guides, tackle mfg’s etc. this year, period.

Who is going to travel this year for anything but work?

The economy will be the next priority and everyone is going to want to be working to pay off their bills.

Spending money on a hobby will not be on many’s agenda, paying rent, Food,taxes etc. will be.

We still do not know when or if the social separation will be over by fall!

Till they have a fix for this, I do not think sportsfishing will be anything like before.

I was talking to the area G troller, The rec sector i believe is allocated 50k chinook on WCVI if we don't fish that the area g trollers get it,

So our loss is their gain
 
I see nothing wrong with this in this scenario.

At least the public will get to buy and eat them.




I was talking to the area G troller, The rec sector i believe is allocated 50k chinook on WCVI if we don't fish that the area g trollers get it,

So our loss is their gain
 
If Area 20 just doesn't the DNA how can fight for a marked select fishery in the JDF? If you guys think your fishery is going to keep going with handing a few CWT heads, and other old data in it won't. Writing was on the wall 2010, and we should have started this way back. We adapt, or quite frankly it is done. Sorry 2018 thing happened to you, but really need to move on.


AGAIN your not listening I said on many days I could count that amount of boats on one hand ..HOW THE **** you gonna get data from that?? I got someone to post the over 6800 points of data is that not fucken enough data to keep our fishery going?? how much more do they need???? id say over 6800 pieces IF they wanted to use it for basing it on SCIENCE then it should be more then enough,, LOKK AT THE DATA!!!!!! LOOK AT THE DATA see where alot of the fish are coming from... its gonna take you about 30 mins but you will see a trend.........im sorry for the rant I just find it so frustrating when they dont base things on science....
 
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AGAIN your not listening I said on many days I could count that amount of boats on one hand ..HOW THE **** you gonna get data from that?? I got someone to post the over 6800 points of data is that not fucken enough data to keep our fishery going?? how much more do they need???? id say over 6800 pieces IF they wanted to use it for basing it on SCIENCE then it should be more then enough,, LOKK AT THE DATA!!!!!! LOOK AT THE DATA see where alot of the fish are coming from... its gonna take you about 30 mins but you will see a trend.........

This is UBC acoustic data last year. Fish were caught and tagged in Renfrew. Look at migration closely though JDF and approach areas.

Also answer is more than just one years data.

 
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There is two approaches to get things opened up in areas that have early Fraser chinook present.

1. A MSF
2. Increase the allowable harvest rate from 5% to something like 20%
 
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