slow year
- Thread starter sven
- Start date
Shermanater
Member
"I'm guessing you are young and naive or simply don't know any better"
Dave H, I'm guessing you are old and crazy[
]. I think Oglthorpe has some very good points. Remember that this is an informal forum. Proper grammar is not always used. If you want to make fun of someones grammar, then don't make any mistakes of your own.
If you want to be technical then provide some primary literature to support your data. Without that you have no credibility. Which one of these Suziki/Sierra organizations do you work for anyway?
Dave H, I'm guessing you are old and crazy[
]. I think Oglthorpe has some very good points. Remember that this is an informal forum. Proper grammar is not always used. If you want to make fun of someones grammar, then don't make any mistakes of your own.If you want to be technical then provide some primary literature to support your data. Without that you have no credibility. Which one of these Suziki/Sierra organizations do you work for anyway?
B
Brisco
Guest
Every year we witness the natives setting their nets in the Fraser for "food fishery".We watch them set the nets and come back days later.The salmon have decayed in the warm water and ravaged by seals.Yet they pick out whats left and sell these socks to the white man that deserves them.The fact is the Fisheries people are all clowns who are scared of the natives and will pick on the white guy because we can't go to court and have judges find in our favour.
drhook
Active Member
Fish farming is the ONLY salvation to the world's ever increasing population and demand for seafood. We cannot keep raping the world's wild ocean stocks to extinction. The east coast cod fishery is an example of that.
Are there problems in farming fish? Of course! There are disease issues in any type of farming whether its tomatoes or chicken.
These problems will be resolved one by one and I'm sure other problems will occurr later on. Example: We've raised chickens for hundreds of years but no one could expect this latest outbreak of bird flu.
This is the evolution of mankind. We don't hunt anything on land anymore that you find in Safeway. Why should the world's oceans be any different?
Are there problems in farming fish? Of course! There are disease issues in any type of farming whether its tomatoes or chicken.
These problems will be resolved one by one and I'm sure other problems will occurr later on. Example: We've raised chickens for hundreds of years but no one could expect this latest outbreak of bird flu.
This is the evolution of mankind. We don't hunt anything on land anymore that you find in Safeway. Why should the world's oceans be any different?
Shermanater:
Below are references for some of the "primary literature" that you asked for and that supports Dave H's argument (hope it is OK I posted these here Dave H). Copy and paste them into Google and you will find Abstracts and more details.
Oglthorpe had no good points, except for the point that a “properly located and managed farm does not pose a threat to wild stocks”. This is true in my opinion, the problem is that farms are neither properly (i.e. so as not to pose a threat to wild stocks) located or managed here in BC.
And no I don't work for any of the David Suzuki/Sierra Club type organizations.
---------------------------------------------------------
Bjorn P.A., B. Finstad and R. Kristoffersen. 2001. Salmon lice infection of wild seatrout and Artic char in marine and freshwaters: effects of salmon farms. Aquaculture Research 32: 947-962.
ICES. 1997. Report of the workshop on the interactions between salmon lice and salmonids. Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom. 11-15 November 1996. ICES CM 1997/M 4: Ref. F.
Krkosek M., M. A. Lewis, and J. P. Volpe. 2005a. Transmission dynamics of parasitic sea lice from farmed to wild salmon. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Series B 272: 689-696.
Morton A.B., R. Williams. 2003. First report of a sea louse, Lepeophtheirus salmonis, infestation on juvenile pink salmon, Oncorhynchus gorbuscha, in nearshore habitat. Canadian Field-Naturalist 117: 634-641.
Morton A., R. Routledge, C. Peet, and A. Ladwig. 2004. Sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis) infection rates on juvenile pink (Oncorhynchus gorbuscha) and chum (Oncorhynchus keta) salmon in the nearshore marine environment of British Columbia, Canada. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 61: 147-157.
Morton, A., Routledge, R.D., and Williams R. 2005. Temporal patterns of sea louse infestation on wild Pacific Salmon in relation to the fallowing of Atlantic salmon farms. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 25: 811-821.
Morton, A., and Routledge, R.D. 2005. Mortality rates for juvenile pink and chum salmon infested with sea lice in the Broughton Archipelago. Alaska Fishery Research Bulletin 11: 146-152.
Morton, A., and Routledge, R.D. 2005. Fulton’s condition factor: is it a valid measure of sea lice impact on juvenile salmon? North American Journal of Fisheries Management 26: 56-62.
PFRCC (Pacific Fisheries Research Conservation Council). 2002. 2002 advisory: the protection of Broughton Archipelago pink salmon stocks, appendix 1, annex 2. Report to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the British Columbia Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. Available: www.fish.bc.ca (November 2005)
Pike A. W., S. L. Wadsworth. 1999. Sealice on salmonids: Their biology and control. Advances in Parasitology 44: 233.
Tully O., W.R. Poole and K.F. Whelan. 1993a. Infestation parameters for Lepeophtheirus salmonis (Krøyer) (Copepoda: Caligidae) parasitic on sea trout, Salmo trutta, off the west coast of Ireland during 1990 and 1991. Aquaculture and Fisheries Management 24: 545-555.
Tully O., W.R. Poole, K.F. Whelan and S. Merigoux. 1993b. Parameters and possible causes of epizootics of Lepeophtheirus salmonis (Kroyer) infesting sea trout (Salmo trutta, L.) off the west coast of Ireland. In Pathogens of Wild and Farmed Fish: Sea Lice (Boxshall G.A., and D. Defaye. eds.) 202-213. London: Ellis Horwood.
Below are references for some of the "primary literature" that you asked for and that supports Dave H's argument (hope it is OK I posted these here Dave H). Copy and paste them into Google and you will find Abstracts and more details.
Oglthorpe had no good points, except for the point that a “properly located and managed farm does not pose a threat to wild stocks”. This is true in my opinion, the problem is that farms are neither properly (i.e. so as not to pose a threat to wild stocks) located or managed here in BC.
And no I don't work for any of the David Suzuki/Sierra Club type organizations.
---------------------------------------------------------
Bjorn P.A., B. Finstad and R. Kristoffersen. 2001. Salmon lice infection of wild seatrout and Artic char in marine and freshwaters: effects of salmon farms. Aquaculture Research 32: 947-962.
ICES. 1997. Report of the workshop on the interactions between salmon lice and salmonids. Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom. 11-15 November 1996. ICES CM 1997/M 4: Ref. F.
Krkosek M., M. A. Lewis, and J. P. Volpe. 2005a. Transmission dynamics of parasitic sea lice from farmed to wild salmon. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Series B 272: 689-696.
Morton A.B., R. Williams. 2003. First report of a sea louse, Lepeophtheirus salmonis, infestation on juvenile pink salmon, Oncorhynchus gorbuscha, in nearshore habitat. Canadian Field-Naturalist 117: 634-641.
Morton A., R. Routledge, C. Peet, and A. Ladwig. 2004. Sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis) infection rates on juvenile pink (Oncorhynchus gorbuscha) and chum (Oncorhynchus keta) salmon in the nearshore marine environment of British Columbia, Canada. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 61: 147-157.
Morton, A., Routledge, R.D., and Williams R. 2005. Temporal patterns of sea louse infestation on wild Pacific Salmon in relation to the fallowing of Atlantic salmon farms. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 25: 811-821.
Morton, A., and Routledge, R.D. 2005. Mortality rates for juvenile pink and chum salmon infested with sea lice in the Broughton Archipelago. Alaska Fishery Research Bulletin 11: 146-152.
Morton, A., and Routledge, R.D. 2005. Fulton’s condition factor: is it a valid measure of sea lice impact on juvenile salmon? North American Journal of Fisheries Management 26: 56-62.
PFRCC (Pacific Fisheries Research Conservation Council). 2002. 2002 advisory: the protection of Broughton Archipelago pink salmon stocks, appendix 1, annex 2. Report to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the British Columbia Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. Available: www.fish.bc.ca (November 2005)
Pike A. W., S. L. Wadsworth. 1999. Sealice on salmonids: Their biology and control. Advances in Parasitology 44: 233.
Tully O., W.R. Poole and K.F. Whelan. 1993a. Infestation parameters for Lepeophtheirus salmonis (Krøyer) (Copepoda: Caligidae) parasitic on sea trout, Salmo trutta, off the west coast of Ireland during 1990 and 1991. Aquaculture and Fisheries Management 24: 545-555.
Tully O., W.R. Poole, K.F. Whelan and S. Merigoux. 1993b. Parameters and possible causes of epizootics of Lepeophtheirus salmonis (Kroyer) infesting sea trout (Salmo trutta, L.) off the west coast of Ireland. In Pathogens of Wild and Farmed Fish: Sea Lice (Boxshall G.A., and D. Defaye. eds.) 202-213. London: Ellis Horwood.
dohboy
Active Member
the one thing that i dont think has been brought up, is the massive amounts of fish food that is needed to feed these farmed fish, a big part of that food is made from other fish, so we are cleaning out the ocean of what may be thought as undesirable species to feed another, but we all know what happens when we keep taking a link out of the food chain, and the native fishery is a big issue in the fact that we all see so much wasted by their methods, how many times have u seen them selling fish out of the back of thier cars ( even uncleaned fish), as soon as fish is sold off to the beer store, or when they pull thier nets in not just salmon in the mix but steelhead as well, not trying to biased but it is a **** off
tks for letting me vent
tks for letting me vent
tubber
Well-Known Member
As someone who was once neutral on the sublect and always willing to hear both sides of an argument, it is quite evident to me that Dave H, with Nerka's assistance, makes Oglthorpe, Sven and their teammates the clear losers of this debate so far. It does make for interesting reading though.
Drhook, please explain how mushy, flavourless, farmed Atlantic salmon will solve the world's food crisis. Surely you are not suggesting that we can harvest, process, chill/freeze, ship, cook and serve it to our province's (and eventually the whole world's)homeless people in a way that will please the fish farm corporations and their profit margins.
Drhook, please explain how mushy, flavourless, farmed Atlantic salmon will solve the world's food crisis. Surely you are not suggesting that we can harvest, process, chill/freeze, ship, cook and serve it to our province's (and eventually the whole world's)homeless people in a way that will please the fish farm corporations and their profit margins.
Shermanater
Member
Tubber
In what way are the pro-salmon farm supporters the clear losers? Because of some poor scientific methods from A Morton that have been cited? How do people expect to eat salmon for years to come that are commercially caught in a poorly managed fishery?
In what way are the pro-salmon farm supporters the clear losers? Because of some poor scientific methods from A Morton that have been cited? How do people expect to eat salmon for years to come that are commercially caught in a poorly managed fishery?
OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
Dave, great reply.
I find it interesting that where money gets involved the players soon change their minds.
It is even noted in your local paper.
I find it interesting that where money gets involved the players soon change their minds.
It is even noted in your local paper.
tubber
Well-Known Member
Shermanater
I don't mean to imply that anyone is a loser. Debates often have judges that consider the presentation and persuasiveness of the arguments given by both sides. All I'm saying is that as a self-appointed judge, I think your side is losing the argument so far.
I suspect that Dave H and Nerka could easily win the debate if they had to argue the other side too. They are high level BSers and the other side is overmatched on this thread.
To answer your other question, people should not expect to eat salmon in the years to come. 1) All interest groups need to view the wild salmon resource as a priviledge not an expected right. If all users and guardians of the resource take care of it, there will always be a sustainable wild fishery. I know, DFO and industrial logging will need to make vast improvements for this to be so.
Fish Farms, are not partners in the relationship. They take but cannot give back. Contributing money to hatcheries doesn't count, as that is another practise with dubious outcomes.
2) Farm fish is not salmon. It is beautiful to look at, but it tastes like fish flavoured mush. This will never change.
By the way, if the farms moved to tanks on shore, even if the government had to offer tax incentives to get the pens out of the ocean, most people would be all for the fish farming industry.
I don't mean to imply that anyone is a loser. Debates often have judges that consider the presentation and persuasiveness of the arguments given by both sides. All I'm saying is that as a self-appointed judge, I think your side is losing the argument so far.
I suspect that Dave H and Nerka could easily win the debate if they had to argue the other side too. They are high level BSers and the other side is overmatched on this thread.
To answer your other question, people should not expect to eat salmon in the years to come. 1) All interest groups need to view the wild salmon resource as a priviledge not an expected right. If all users and guardians of the resource take care of it, there will always be a sustainable wild fishery. I know, DFO and industrial logging will need to make vast improvements for this to be so.
Fish Farms, are not partners in the relationship. They take but cannot give back. Contributing money to hatcheries doesn't count, as that is another practise with dubious outcomes.
2) Farm fish is not salmon. It is beautiful to look at, but it tastes like fish flavoured mush. This will never change.
By the way, if the farms moved to tanks on shore, even if the government had to offer tax incentives to get the pens out of the ocean, most people would be all for the fish farming industry.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
right on Dave, at last someone who see's the big picture !
R
Rob Warren
Guest
Why would I want a job with the Department when I already had one and left? Like I said if you read the post... The Department does not have the sport fishermen or the salmon stocks in their best interest. They control the price of fish on the open market to the corporations advantage. I have sat on Boards and have seen with my own eyes, industry controlling the opening and closeing times of fisheries. Not DFO. I could pretty much write a book about DFO mis-management of all fish stocks on the coast. But the proper thing to do is to repopulate the wild salmon stocks, move the farmed salmon into holding pens on the ground with proper filtration systems and waste disposal, and enhance the spawning rivers.
drhook
Active Member
Who said anything about feeding the homeless? The poor people of the world will always be eating grains. Meat is something they can rarely afford.
As things stand now, the demands on our oceans are too great and the harvest is not sustainable, especially considering our relentless abuse of their spawning streams
If you happened to grow up on a farm, you would know that the brown eggs we now buy in the store should have a tasty, dark yolk; not the yellow tasteless thing it is now. Or that free range chickens taste a whole lot different than the pellet, hormone fed creatures we eat now. This is the way the world is now. We've just forgotten what REAL food is supposed to taste like.
Years from now your grandchildren will pay big bucks for a farm raised fish and they'll say its the best thing they ever had.
Because they won't know any better.
R
Rob Warren
Guest
Well I did refresh myself on the Allocation Policy you suggested the paper outlines the following.
The first salmon allocation principle confirms that conservation of Pacific salmon stocks is the primary objective and will take precedence in managing the resource. After conservation requirements are secured, the framework outlines a reasonable, balanced approach to the allocation issues:
It recognizes the priority of First Nations for food, social and ceremonial purposes.
It gives priority to the recreational sector for chinook and coho and provides for more predictable recreational fishing opportunities for sockeye, pink and chum.
It confirms the commercial sector's share of total catch of sockeye, pink and chum will still be at least 95 per cent or higher. Commercial harvest of chinook and coho will occur when abundance permits.
It encourages selective fishing by setting aside a portion of the total available catch for commercial licence holders to test more selective harvesting gear and technology.
It establishes that target allocations for the commercial sector will be set on a coast wide basis by gear and will be subject to adjustments over time to account for conservation needs, and possible changes resulting from the commercial salmon licence retirement program.
And, yes I did indeed work for the Department Co-ordinating all of the South Coast Native food fisheries. If you have any doubts feel free to contact your local office and ask if they know of Mr. Warren.
The name of the board I sat on was the Herring Industry Advisory Board, or HIAB for short. I can't believe you would even make a comment like that about go troll somewhere else..lmfao, but then again I have seen all kinds of attitudes towards the natives' priority fishery. I have done my part to contribute back to the resource, can you say the same?
finaddict
Well-Known Member
Dave H.
Thanks for the clarity. You and I agree whole heartedly on this one. Yeah I know that's rare but its good to know that we actually have quite a bit of common ground.
RW,
You mentioned that you worked as a F.O. for a while. This is not mormally a position that people leave once they have been trained for 6 months and assigned for their three year requirement. Your e-mails infer that you could no longer work for an organization with such incompetence. Care to elaborate on the reasons for your departure?
Thanks for the clarity. You and I agree whole heartedly on this one. Yeah I know that's rare but its good to know that we actually have quite a bit of common ground.
RW,
You mentioned that you worked as a F.O. for a while. This is not mormally a position that people leave once they have been trained for 6 months and assigned for their three year requirement. Your e-mails infer that you could no longer work for an organization with such incompetence. Care to elaborate on the reasons for your departure?
R
Rob Warren
Guest
Sure, I was a fisheries officer for a local First Nation and no I am not a member of their band. The reason for my departure from them was totally political in nature. The new chief had different priorities than the last. The training we received is not nearly as intensive as a Department of Fisheries Officer, although very comprehensive, the whole firearms training aspect doesn't come into play. The reason I know DFO so well is that my late father worked for them for 30 yrs. He advanced through the department and ended up working based out of Ottawa reviewing policies and such. I don't regret working for DFO during my stint as the coordinator, but even there I got to see first hand as you say the "organization with such incompetence" In fact that is a very very good name for them. I suppose I could have made a career out of working in DFO, but after watching what my father went through for 30 yrs I would rather not.
Well I'm heading offshore in the next few days to try my luck at Hali's and springs, maybe if I hold my mouth just right I can get those elusive tyee's to take the bait. I'll let you all know how we made out. till then, tight lines and good fishin'.
http://members.shaw.ca/spiritoftheeagle/
Well I'm heading offshore in the next few days to try my luck at Hali's and springs, maybe if I hold my mouth just right I can get those elusive tyee's to take the bait. I'll let you all know how we made out. till then, tight lines and good fishin'.
http://members.shaw.ca/spiritoftheeagle/
Here's my 2bits.I got no problem with the commercial boys, my problem is the NETS.PROOF go to hardy, the nets are taking a temendous amount of pilchards right now.my brother just got back and talked to the people doing it.[he's a curious type and ask a lot of questions.who were they native[please don't call me a racist for saying this,like someone did earlier,you don't know me.He didn't blame them their ecomony is terrible up there.But they sell theses fish to be ground up for fish food for the salmon farms.Wa.state will not recover untill the nets are gone.california banned all nets they now have the 2nd best sports fishing in the U.S. Alaska is first.Why don't they troll.I was in cambell river,last year i saw a boat with flashers and pink squid.lots of them.Thats alright to me those fish still have to bite.You also have to know whats going on. The quality of fish goes up also.Too bad someone who farm fishes don't respond.PLEASE don't beat each other up over this.Thanks
