Seal/Sea Lion Problem On The West Coast!

quote:Give your head a shake man. I don't work all week and spend thousands of dollars on this sport to go and feed seals on the weekends.

Nobody gives a F*#k how much you spend on fishing - the amount you spend to part take in this sport has absolutely ZERO bearing on the ocean's ecosystem or how many fish you feel you have a right to.

I am for seal culling in places like the puntledge, columbia, fraser or any place that seals pose a conservation issue.

In 99.9% of this province seals are not causing any harm to salmon populations, in a few areas there is a cause for concern - Nanaimo is not one of them.



quote: u wish your hook isn't in the seals stommach?.i think every fisherman would hope it is, after they just had their gear taken from them. and i'm pretty sure that every fisherman says the same thing when they have a seal on. I WISH I HAD A GUN RIGHT NOW!!!!

Don't ever put your uneducated, ignorant, red-neck opinion in my mouth buddy.

Seals hunt salmon, a salmon attached to a fishing line is easier prey - get over it or go golfing.
 
Sarcasm Marula? C'mon, you suggested shooting people for losing fishing so don't preach to me about sarcasm.

Hey Swiss, it seems appropriate that you had trouble spelling "Uneducated". :D But I agree with you that we need to cull these seals, rivers or oceans, it's all the same.
 
quote:Hey Swiss, it seems appropriate that you had trouble spelling "Uneducated".

Nice work, bring up my spelling when you have no argument to back up words - now thats lame.

quote: But I agree with you that we need to cull these seals, rivers or oceans, it's all the same

Please explain how you came to the conclusion that it's all the same? Maybe you can enlighten me to your point of view.
 
Alright then, Biology 101. You can cull seals that are eating the salmon as they return to spawn or you can cull the seals that eat the juvenile salmon as they exit the river. It's all the same.
 
quote:Originally posted by yammy5

Alright then, Biology 101. You can cull seals that are eating the salmon as they return to spawn or you can cull the seals that eat the juvenile salmon as they exit the river. It's all the same.

If that is your opinion then you obviously did not learn much in Biology 101. No offense!
 
Really? Try Math 101 then. If more salmon reach the river then more salmon spawn = more salmon. If more juvenile salmon make it from the river to the ocean then = more salmon. It’s the same. ;)
 
quote:Originally posted by yammy5

Really? Try Math 101 then. If more salmon reach the river then more salmon spawn = more salmon. If more juvenile salmon make it from the river to the ocean then = more salmon. It’s the same. ;)

I think it will be a waste of my time to argue your simplistic analysis of the complex mechanisms involved in predator-prey relationships and the biological world in general.

On your opinion regarding more salmon spawning = more juvenile salmon, you may want to do some reading. Compensation and depensation work in very interesting ways.

As I indicated in one of my other posts there are problem areas where seals and sea lions are truly a concern. Unfortunately these are anthropogenically induced problems and solutions are needed.

A few harbour seals hanging around Possession Point that steal the odd salmon from an angler are not a real issue.
 
Simple Solution MORE SALMON!

it is the lack of salmon in our waters thats the real problem.

Contribute to the soulution get involved.
 
Well in essence Roadrunner we agree that seal (and sea lion) populations are a problem and require solutions. I'm leaning towards a cull and you would prefer to hug them to death.

Peace, no offense, yadda yadda, I'm done.
 
From my perspective looking back over 50 years of fishing , is that when I was a kid and fished all over from Barkley Sound , Nitinat , Port Renfrew , Cowichan Bay , Bowser etc etc etc there were always seals and they did snack on a few of our hooked catch , but what I see is the huge explosion of sea lions in all of these areas , sea lions are a supreme predator of fish and the natural element to cull them was the transient orca pods which are diminishing in number ; and whether you like it or not back in those days the other super predator (commercial fisherman) was known to carry an assortment of weaponry to keep these larger members of the seal family in check from Cape Scott and through to the South.
Two issues appear in my mind to cry out for review :
1. If we can accelerate salmon fry survival or flood the waters with numbers then we can assure fishing for all species.
2. Failing that culling in high depredation areas at certain times to allow the escapment of salmon to the nursery streams.
Both are open for assessment and have undeniable setbacks to them but What other alternatives are there ?
Wholesale wiping out of a species does not compute nor does allowance of festering problem promote answers , the causation of the problems and solutions lay in the past when ignorance built dams on high salmon producing rivers and logging practices had no controls over ruination of rearing beds.
To turn on each other here solves nothing and only aggravates the situation.
Lets use our minds for thought and to try and derive answers not to taunt and demean others opinions , personal attacks have no place on this forum in my mind .

AL
 
quote:Originally posted by alley cat

From my perspective looking back over 50 years of fishing , is that when I was a kid and fished all over from Barkley Sound , Nitinat , Port Renfrew , Cowichan Bay , Bowser etc etc etc there were always seals and they did snack on a few of our hooked catch , but what I see is the huge explosion of sea lions in all of these areas , sea lions are a supreme predator of fish and the natural element to cull them was the transient orca pods which are diminishing in number ; and whether you like it or not back in those days the other super predator (commercial fisherman) was known to carry an assortment of weaponry to keep these larger members of the seal family in check from Cape Scott and through to the South.
Two issues appear in my mind to cry out for review :
1. If we can accelerate salmon fry survival or flood the waters with numbers then we can assure fishing for all species.
2. Failing that culling in high depredation areas at certain times to allow the escapment of salmon to the nursery streams.
Both are open for assessment and have undeniable setbacks to them but What other alternatives are there ?
Wholesale wiping out of a species does not compute nor does allowance of festering problem promote answers , the causation of the problems and solutions lay in the past when ignorance built dams on high salmon producing rivers and logging practices had no controls over ruination of rearing beds.
To turn on each other here solves nothing and only aggravates the situation.
Lets use our minds for thought and to try and derive answers not to taunt and demean others opinions , personal attacks have no place on this forum in my mind .

AL

I can agree with you on a few points; however, we have to put time and human population density into perspective. Commercial fishers 15,20,30,50, 70 years ago would have had little impact on the population dynamics of seal populations. There are certainly more California Sea lions in our waters now than in the past, which is percieved (and probably is) a threat to the native Stellar sea lions. There are many other factors that have caused these animals to move into more northerly latitudes. None of these mammals: harbour seals, Cal. or Stellar Sea lions would be abundant without adequate resources. If salmon abundance is too low to support these animals they are eating something else. Otherwise their density would be low. This is the simplest interpretation, or explanation of population dynamics (of any predator). Killer Whales have nothing to do with this.

My feeling is that we need (or are compelled) to lay blame on lower than expected returns (spawner estimates) or catch per unit efforts on tangible (to most) explanations. Seals are simply an easy scapecoat for human-induced issues. If we cannot address large-scale habitat reduction through urbanization and deforestation then we will continue to see fewer salmon.

An easy way to understand this is to look at the success of all species of salmon. Fragile or "more easily affected by disturbance species", i.e. Chinook, Coho, and Steelhead, require long-term freshwater residence. Species that are seeing near-historic returns: Pinks, Chums, and Sockeye (other than when the temperature of the Fraser reaches critical levels and impedes migration success) experience little to no freshwater stream residence period. Coho in particular, need very small streams to rear. These are the streams that continue to be covered over by subdivisions or impeded by culverts through continuous road building.

What is the real reason for lower than expected abundance?

It does not benefit the resource to have a narrow viewpoint. Alley Cat is 100% correct in that we need to find real answers to solve these complex issues. Shooting a couple of "deviant" seals that are smart enough to identify an easy meal-ticket is not a solution that will have any effect on maintaining this important resource. Identifying this as a "real-effect" extuingishes all credibility from a user group, and is undeniably laughable (if that is a word).

And yes....I do take offense to being called a "seal hugger". Seals have impacted my livliehood, not my recreation, in the past.
 
I see a lot of call for "more hatcheries". I've always thought the great thing about BC was the low number of hatcheries. There are other things that can be done to improve the habitat on rivers. There has been extensive studies on "fertilization" of rivers. This helps the amount of food available to the fry while they're in the river.

We also need to work with the logging companies so that the stream habitat is preserved even when there is logging in a given watershed.

There are a lot of other areas that need work, and I don't want to list them here. I just don't think we should heap all this on the seals/sea lions and crank out genetically similar fish from hatcheries. We don't want to turn into Oregon (in the hatchery department).
 
And, to throw another point out, sea lions, and seals, may be perceived as a problem because they, like man, are opportunistic feeders that will congregate where the food is concentrated. Hence, they are perceived as the visible big bad bear.
Probably not the case. More likely habitat destruction, overfishing, pollution, and (I hate to say it) climate change are bigger problems.

Try a google search for harbour seal diets or californai sea food diets and you can come up with some interesting stuff, e.g., a study of scat samples of seals in the Umpqua River in Oregon shows salmonoids in only 6%. Other studies suggest that the salmon form 10 t0 30% of their diet (sea lions, Columbia River, spawning season) The US Corp of Engineers report that "Each year since 2004, California sea lions have consumed 3,000 to 3,500 salmon and steelhead immediately below Bonneville Dam". Undoubtedly more are consumed further downriver. But is this a problem in a river system that once had runs extimated at more than 40,000,000+ fish? Of course that was before the 'modern' age.

What is the depletion of rockfish on the inside strait, hake fishing etc. on the west side having on the diet of the seals and sea lions? Are they being forced inshore to survive? I don't know, but suspect there may be a link.

Nothing is ever simple.
 
My related rant over on FishBC of today, titled "Aggressive Sea Lions":

For many years, decades actually, The Dino has encouraged aggressive extraction of the herring stocks along our entire coastline. While this generated for a fortunate(?) few some pretty hefty economic returns through the years, the cost is now starting to effect all west coast fishery resources in a negative fashion. Management of the stocks has been geared towards maximizing removal, with but token thought towards sustainability of the target stock, and apparently even smaller concern towards the impacts upon those others stocks that rely heavily upon the at-one-time huge feeder base the herring represented. Nearly everything that swims, flies and wanders the chuck can be correlated directly to the abundance of groceries available to sustain them, and in this, herring play a MAJOR role.

Jump now to this most dismal spring. Dismal in that it very much appears that the extremely efficient industry, with the Dino's blessing and encouragement, has now collapsed the herring stocks to the point of no return. Surverys conducted the entire west coastline of The Rock indicate the spawning component of the herring stock has all but completely dissapeared. Untold volumes of taxpayer dollars were expended in the desperate hope that some, any, sign could be discovered to suggest there might be a glimmer of hope for the future, and thus justify a return to the Glory Days of get rich quick madhouse slaughter. Unfortuneatley, the results of these surveys cannot be interpreted as anything else but a complete failure of this year's spawning activities along the WCVI as a whole.

Now I just know that someone is going to point at the fisheries that occured along the east coast of the Island as some means of hope in this regard. But, facing facts, the numbers simply weren't sufficient to provide for the usually lucrative fishery. Mesh size reductions promoted by The Dino did result in an increased harvest, but that was chiefly an inferior product which resulted in many boats realizing but packing fees for eventual fishmeal. Nope, not much of a shining light there for the future of the the most basic foodstock of the Mistress Pacific's many hungry denizons!

Witnessing this event unfold this year has been heartbreaking to say the least. Sea birds reliant on the herring are dying off in numbers unheard of, fish stocks are directly suffering, including salmon but also every other organism out there.

Now to relate this to the title of the thread: Sea lions, overabundant due to decades of thoughtless over-protection are also very much feeling the hit. Yes, the Tourist Critters in Ucy appear to be in good shape, but that is completely due to their immediate access to the volume of foodstuffs delvered daily at the working fishplants there. Outside, in areas where there is no easy Gravy Train, the animals are showing signs of decreasing vigour - many appear ragged and skinny as they slowly starve due to the lack of basic foodstuffs required to maintain their enormous bodies. Breeding success is declining at a rate not witnessed previously, and it very much appears that blanket protection, coupled with the intense fisheries on their prey species is simply serving to kill them off - perhaps kindness was the original intent of the protection, but starvation is a very slow and lingering death. One that I certainly wouldn't intentionally foist on even my most bitter of enemies.

The result of this impact is sorely being felt by any who ply the coastal waters, especially those in pursuit of salmon. I have personally witnessed days when up to a dozen and more desperate lions literally glue themselves to any unlucky troller they can find, and snatch anything that fishing machine manages to hook so fast there is simply no hope of even seeing what the captured prey might have been. Sport fishers are as incensed as the commercial lads, as they present as much of a target as those who hunt the salmon for pay. Most are reporting serial attacks as the new norm, something that is now considered a Given if headed out to enagage silver fish in the chuck. The reports all the way from Hardy down through Renfrew are the same, and for the first time, range as far out as 30 plus miles (where one could usually expect to leave the starving robbers behind in the past).

The whole of the system is hurting, the lions but an indication thereof. Those of us who love and work out on the chuck are deeply troubled, and we fervently hope this is but a year class failure (herring) as the driving mechanism thereof. Sadly, it just may be that the light at the end of the tunnel we so much yearn for is but a runaway frieght train headed right at us!

For all that is Holy DFO, lose the blinders and get on with some REAL management activity! Self-justification no longer cuts the mustard! Dispite all the cheap double talk, your actions are indeed turning our once magnificent west coast fishery resources into a barren wasteland. But then again, that is exactly what you did to the East Coast, so why would we have any reason to expect anything different in out here in the West?? :unsure:

Shaking the ol' noggin yet again...
Nog

And yes, I AM one of those knuckle-draggin' commercial troller types[}:)]
 
Great post Noggin....although I am feeling rather ill after reading it.I had heard rumours that the herring fishery never materialized this year but had not read anything in the major papers about it. THat is absolutely gut wrenching to hear. When you start removing the building blocks of the food change only calamity follows. Is there any where I can look to read up about the no show herring?
 
i can just tell you.
it was crappy weather so the herrring didn''t spawn.
but the numbers were definatly down.
but we got our 200 tones
 
quote:Originally posted by fisherman14

i can just tell you.
it was crappy weather so the herrring didn''t spawn.
but the numbers were definatly down.
but we got our 200 tones
I can't begin to tell you how reassured I'am that the appearant lack of herring this season was due to inclement weather. Noggin must be smokin something. So glad to hear you boys got "your" 200 tonnes!!! Klob.
 
how 'bout a daily possession limit of one seal a day?Seriously though, we are the ones to blame for the seal problem.They need to eat ,just like us,and they will do what it takes to survive.Nature has a way to restore the balance,we just need to butt out.Anyone who has run the gauntlet of nets on the WCVI during coho season can understand why the lack of food is available to the seal population.
Oh and by the way,a small warehouse of sockeye was left to rot by certain net fishermen on the Fraser River last year-no charges were laid.
Why is the best place on earth so poorly managed?
 
i'm pretty positive that the natives here in alberi leave fish to rot all the time.
u can smell it pretty good when u drive down river road. the smell of indians at thier best. killing all the fish in the river and then let them rot and then just blame the white guy for the lack of salmon the next year.
 
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