Prawn Closures

[hambone]

The purpose of these new closures is to protect spawners if abundances are low. I'm pretty sure the reason the rec crowd is upset is that we already face pulse fishing, daily limit and trap limit. If that's not enough and abundance is a problem then close areas entirely.

Yes, the commercial season is only 2 months (often less) but in that time frame the ocean is completely blitzed. The "sustainable" commercial fishery obviously made a push for these closures.... They give up nothing and will reap the rewards by hammering these low abundance areas during their season.

 

[fish4all]

I have no problem with closing for spawning, in fact I doubt anyone does. However, how do you justify recreatonal pulse fishing to protect a stock that is commercially fished without similar restrictions? If commercial vessels were limited or only allowed to fish for a similarly reduced time then maybe it would be fair? As I understand it though, no such restrictions exist? Am I wrong? Are the areas subject to reduced rec fishing to protect the stock only open for half as long as other areas for commercial fishery? Is there a maximum tonnage figure? Restriction on number of boats?

I don't prawn fish but I do know that each license has been reduced to a maximum number of traps and those traps can only be hauled once per day. There is also a fixed number of licences. I'm not sure how many have been bought up by Dfo for Picfi but I believe it is a significant amount. Is there a maximum number of prawns on a sports license for the year? I sat with 2 sports fishermen and they both admitted to taking between 13-15000 prawns for there summer. Those numbers include their "guests" but still very significant for only 2 boats.

 

[Fish Assassin]

13-15000 Ya right.......... I think you may have added an extra couple zeros after the 15

 

[ziggy]

Well I certainly hope if what they were doing was illegal F4All, you reported it? Clearly if they took that many it was not for their own use? Then again I could say I knew of commercial fishermen who cheated the system, but I have no proof, they just told me how the scammed the system and laughed about it. You know those foolish DFO guys never caught them.

You attempt to deflect is pretty rudimentary! Is there a maximum amount of tonnage commies can haul, yes or no? Is there a maximum amount of boats that can fish an area, yes, or no? If your imaginary friends hauled as many prawns as you claim, can you imagine what a guy with 300 traps hauls in 40 days?
Do you think if the guys you associate are plundering the ocean it somehow makes it OK for commercial boats to carpet bomb the stock? Frankly I don't, but as a non prawn fishermen maybe conservation of the stock is not on your agenda and clearly your friends realised that if they told you about their greed!

 

[Fish Assassin]

Any idea what percentage of licenceed rec. anglers prawn fish? 1% maybe, doubt it's even that high.

 

[fish4all]

Well I certainly hope if what they were doing was illegal F4All, you reported it? Clearly if they took that many it was not for their own use? Then again I could say I knew of commercial fishermen who cheated the system, but I have no proof, they just told me how the scammed the system and laughed about it. You know those foolish DFO guys never caught them.

You attempt to deflect is pretty rudimentary! Is there a maximum amount of tonnage commies can haul, yes or no? Is there a maximum amount of boats that can fish an area, yes, or no? If your imaginary friends hauled as many prawns as you claim, can you imagine what a guy with 300 traps hauls in 40 days?
Do you think if the guys you associate are plundering the ocean it somehow makes it OK for commercial boats to carpet bomb the stock? Frankly I don't, but as a non prawn fishermen maybe conservation of the stock is not on your agenda and clearly your friends realised that if they told you about their greed!

Never said it was illegal. The number (!3-15,000) is what was entered into his sportsfish survey. The guy in question was a family member who spends the summer months around kuyquot. he keeps his boat out there and takes guests out. The number stated is the total for the summer that his boat caught. It is just an example of what 1 sports vessel can do. Not that hard of math to figure out that 4 guests a day keeping there limit over the span of the summer can take quite a number of ....... everything.

FA has a good question. Does anyone know how many sports boats fish prawns (1%, 5% 10,20.....)? or better yet how many sports boats are in bc every season?

I was not trying to deflect just point out that the recreational fleet can have an effect on the prawn stocks. Especially if there is any amount of catch taken during the reproductive months.

To answer your questions to the best of my knowledge no there is no limit on what a commercial prawn vessel can catch in a season. they are regulated by mesh size, number of pots. and hauling once a day. No the licenses are not area specific.

Is there a maximum number of boats the sports fleet can have in an area? Is there a maximum yearly tonnage associated with each of the 250,000 sports licenses? anyone know how much was caught? Where was it caught? I believe the answer to the above is no.

As a fishermen that is fairly young I would have to say that conservation, good science and proper management of all removals of every species in the ocean is very high on my list of priorities.

 

[KV1]

13-15000 Ya right.......... I think you may have added an extra couple zeros after the 15

That's only 75 limit days. Actually if really targeting them it is quite attainable. 2 boats with 2 guys per boat that's 16 traps a day takes it down to 38 days at 200 a day. Definitely doable. Some of the guides might as well be commies.

 

[Fish Assassin]

FA has a good question. Does anyone know how many sports boats fish prawns (1%, 5% 10,20.....)? or better yet how many sports boats are in bc every season?

How many even bother prawning after the commercial fleet has laidend the sea floors with traps. No one I know.

How many even bother during salmon season? Say May thru Oct..... No one I know

How many rec. guys actually fish let alone prawn in the winter...... Hardly anyone, most guys are winterized

How many prawns do is see Dec. onwards with berries? Maybe 1-2 out of a couple hundred. I don't keep berried prawns. If I do see them, I dump trap and move on.

 

[dwflyrod]

i was out 0n sunday prawning 191 boxed and 21 females thrown back

 

[capt. crunch]

I don't prawn fish but I do know that each license has been reduced to a maximum number of traps and those traps can only be hauled once per day. There is also a fixed number of licences. I'm not sure how many have been bought up by Dfo for Picfi but I believe it is a significant amount. Is there a maximum number of prawns on a sports license for the year? I sat with 2 sports fishermen and they both admitted to taking between 13-15000 prawns for there summer. Those numbers include their "guests" but still very significant for only 2 boats.

13-15000 for the summer? Wow great ethics those guys have.

 

[Gong Show]

I was out yesterday with 1% of catch berried and returned in good shape.

 

[fish4all]

How many even bother prawning after the commercial fleet has laidend the sea floors with traps. No one I know.

How many even bother during salmon season? Say May thru Oct..... No one I know

How many rec. guys actually fish let alone prawn in the winter...... Hardly anyone, most guys are winterized

How many prawns do is see Dec. onwards with berries? Maybe 1-2 out of a couple hundred. I don't keep berried prawns. If I do see them, I dump trap and move on.

I don't think " no one I know" is a scientific or defensible answer.

 

[ziggy]

Never said it was illegal. The number (!3-15,000) is what was entered into his sportsfish survey. The guy in question was a family member who spends the summer months around kuyquot. he keeps his boat out there and takes guests out. The number stated is the total for the summer that his boat caught. It is just an example of what 1 sports vessel can do. Not that hard of math to figure out that 4 guests a day keeping there limit over the span of the summer can take quite a number of ....... everything.

FA has a good question. Does anyone know how many sports boats fish prawns (1%, 5% 10,20.....)? or better yet how many sports boats are in bc every season?

I was not trying to deflect just point out that the recreational fleet can have an effect on the prawn stocks. Especially if there is any amount of catch taken during the reproductive months.

To answer your questions to the best of my knowledge no there is no limit on what a commercial prawn vessel can catch in a season. they are regulated by mesh size, number of pots. and hauling once a day. No the licenses are not area specific.

Is there a maximum number of boats the sports fleet can have in an area? Is there a maximum yearly tonnage associated with each of the 250,000 sports licenses? anyone know how much was caught? Where was it caught? I believe the answer to the above is no.

As a fishermen that is fairly young I would have to say that conservation, good science and proper management of all removals of every species in the ocean is very high on my list of priorities.

So it wasn't one guy, it was one guy who took out four guests per day right? So it's ridiculous to suggest he alone let alone any of the 250,000 rec fishermen took that many?

I disagree with anyone taking too much and if it was my family member we would be having a discussion regarding letter of the law vs intent of the law!
As for the question regarding maximum numbers of rec boats in an area, yes, if you understand pulse fishing you would know for half of Sept, Oct and November, the number is zero!
Wonder if we would be having this discussion if the commercial fishery happened in September, was only for say 20 days as a conservation measure, after the sport fishermen had pounded the resource all spring and summer?

 

[ziggy]

That's only 75 limit days. Actually if really targeting them it is quite attainable. 2 boats with 2 guys per boat that's 16 traps a day takes it down to 38 days at 200 a day. Definitely doable. Some of the guides might as well be commies.

It's a red herring! Not many people fish 75 days per year for prawns, and the vast majority don't get out 75 days a year for fishing period. Most of us have jobs and don't live at marina's. He knows it, but tries to tie in his friends, who I'm guessing guide, with the 250,000 guys and girls who buy a salt water license.

Unrealistic, of course, but the oldest trick in the book find an extreme and try and sell it as the norm.

 

[seadog19]

I prawn maybe a couple of sets every couple months, during winter, none during commercial season, none during salmon season.. None of my friends prawn or even boat after sept till may..

 

[fish4all]

It's a red herring! Not many people fish 75 days per year for prawns, and the vast majority don't get out 75 days a year for fishing period. Most of us have jobs and don't live at marina's. He knows it, but tries to tie in his friends, who I'm guessing guide, with the 250,000 guys and girls who buy a salt water license.

Unrealistic, of course, but the oldest trick in the book find an extreme and try and sell it as the norm.

I wasnt trying to state that it is the norm just putting it out there that the rec fleet has no accountability when it comes to the prawn fishery or if you want to go further, most fisheries. Nobody knows the effort the catch or anything to do with what is going on in the fishery. Yet when the commercial guys put forward a position of close the coast to all removals of prawns during the reproduction months, which seems like a no brainer, some people start lighting there hair on fire. I dont know maybe some on here would like the commercial prawn fleet to slow their effort down and extend it into a 8 month season so the two fleets can fight all year on the grounds.

 

[ziggy]

I wasnt trying to state that it is the norm just putting it out there that the rec fleet has no accountability when it comes to the prawn fishery or if you want to go further, most fisheries. Nobody knows the effort the catch or anything to do with what is going on in the fishery. Yet when the commercial guys put forward a position of close the coast to all removals of prawns during the reproduction months, which seems like a no brainer, some people start lighting there hair on fire. I dont know maybe some on here would like the commercial prawn fleet to slow their effort down and extend it into a 8 month season so the two fleets can fight all year on the grounds.

Maybe DFO isn't as stupid as you think! They apparently have some idea of impact of sport fishing otherwise they wouldn't have pulse fishing for a quarter of the year in high pressure areas! Sounds like accountability to me or do you believe its punitive, or just a means of ensuring the commercial fishery is favoured?
You seem to avoid answering if you would be in favour of keeping the closure, which I agree is necessary, but instead of a commercial opening when its lifted, open just for sport fishing until the fall? Give them their opportunity after we pound the stock instead of the other way around like it currently is!
Eventually some smart politician is going to realize pissing off 200 commercial fishermen and losing their votes is preferable to pissing off 250,000 voters and losing theirs!

 

[searun]

I wasnt trying to state that it is the norm just putting it out there that the rec fleet has no accountability when it comes to the prawn fishery or if you want to go further, most fisheries. Nobody knows the effort the catch or anything to do with what is going on in the fishery. Yet when the commercial guys put forward a position of close the coast to all removals of prawns during the reproduction months, which seems like a no brainer, some people start lighting there hair on fire. I dont know maybe some on here would like the commercial prawn fleet to slow their effort down and extend it into a 8 month season so the two fleets can fight all year on the grounds.

Zero accountability? - the commercial fleet increased from 50 licenses in 1980 to just under 300 in 1998. So too did the catch - 400 tonnes to 1700 tonnes. And then to suggest the rec fleet is responsible for over harvest is disingenuous! I think we are little smarter than falling for that line.

HOWEVER, if there is scientifically verifiable evidence the Rec Fleet is causing a conservation concern then I will also be the first to say lets impose restrictions that make sense on the rec fishery.

I also fully appreciate that winter is when the spawn happens and there is validity to reducing impacts on spawners. However, the evidence is clear that the prawns caught by the Rec fleet are 80% undersized 2 to 3 year olds (not spawners..hmmm). Whereas, the commercial fleet catch is 80% 3 - 4year olds (spawners).

Therefore, perhaps a better solution would be to enforce mandatory live release of berried females as opposed to closing the opportunity for rec anglers to enjoy winter prawn fishing? That would make more sense. A full closure does not given those facts. A winter closure just looks to me like another "blame our commercial overfishing on the Rec guys."

I think that if the commercial fleet was serious about real sustainable harvest, they would be looking at fleet rationalization as a way to bring the above stated over-harvest into check. There are simply too many fast run and gun boats in the fishery exploiting more prawns from areas that were never subject to harvest prior to the explosive expansion of the fleet. The commercial fleet is doomed to more cycles of over-harvest as the fleet continues to compete with one another. Its that competition that drives operators to find increasingly more effective ways to expand their success. This is not sustainable, and in the end the fishery will eventually collapse much like the cod fishery back east.

If we continue to remove the 3+ year old prawns from the fishery a few short months before they spawn and call that conservation, then I'm thinking the long term health of the fishery is in real trouble. We instead need to be taking a more holistic view of the fishery and impacts of both commercial and rec removals.

If you want accountability then here is a challenge...how about we give the Rec Fleet an exclusive use (no commercial fishing) area in one of the high use zones, and let us see what happens with the prawn abundance in that particular area...call it an Experiment!

 

[Canso]

Never said it was illegal. The number (!3-15,000) is what was entered into his sportsfish survey. The guy in question was a family member who spends the summer months around kuyquot. he keeps his boat out there and takes guests out. The number stated is the total for the summer that his boat caught. It is just an example of what 1 sports vessel can do. Not that hard of math to figure out that 4 guests a day keeping there limit over the span of the summer can take quite a number of ....... everything..

I was given the same survey. It asked how many I harvested, Not how many the boat harvested.

I prawn with 2 other guys, one of which got the same survey. We only marked what we personally took home.

Sounds like the numbers the dfo collected are way off, if others are marking down boat numbers.



Same thing happened with the sturgeon catch record a few years ago. Everyone used numbers the boat caught and not the angler, so the number was way above reality.

 

[traveller]

Just a quick reminder to Fish4all who seems to have missed an earlier post....the commercial fleet does a fine job of targeting and harvesting the year class of prawns in May, June and July which will be the coming winter spawning females. There are only a certain number of them, obviously, and the DFO managers have to decide who will catch them...and their decision is to have the commercial fleet do that! Then as we head into the winter months all of a sudden we hear that "you recreational people have to stop fishing because we need all the remaining females to distribute the eggs/larvae" They seem to think of this as a " no brainer" It is hard to understand why a commercial fleet fishing down the stock in the Spring is translated into a conservation concern for prawns caused by recreational harvest.....kind of fits the old saying " lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part"

The other fact that DFO seems to disregard is that, as mentioned by others, the number of recreational boats that fish in winter is quite reduced compared to summer use, so leaving areas open in winter does not pose any where near the impact of summer fishing, particularly when recreational people release the berried females when they are encountered.

If the effective strong harvest of prawns in the spring by the commercial fleet was managed to leave more females and transitions in the water, there would not be the cry to close for winter because every single female is then too valuable to touch.

If recreational anglers are to get better opportunity and expectation of catch, which needs to happen when there are 20 to 30 winter closed areas each winter now, and most of those closures are close to the major population centres with the calm protected water we need with our size boats, then something needs to change, and the common property resource, our prawns, should become more available to us. It would seem the halibut battles have been transferred to the prawn access issue, and probably need a similar solution given the current management decisions.