Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Wiseguy, I would pick you up at the ferry. There doesn't seem to be anyone on the island who has the time or initiative to bother with invertebrate sampling.
Now the Gold is gone...
- Thread starter Cuba Libre
- Start date
Aces
Well-Known Member
The amount of rod days on the river is minuscule. Access is way more difficult than worth to the bother for most.
But it is not logged down to the river banks either
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Is Megin logged anywhere?
My understanding is the Gold river summer run population is 50%ish heber fish and 50% ish upper gold river fish with the big ones in the gold, so that begs the question, why are the mainstem gold summer fish having a radically different outcome than their winter run cousins?
Other random thoughts........................................
How many fish farms do Megin fish pass on their journey in and out of Clayquot sound?
If acid rain is lowering the supply of bugs to juveniles how do you propose to fix it?
On the salmon river there was a fertilization program that the province ran for a number of years back in the early 90's. The increase in bug life was noticeable and the juveniles we sampled were very healthy indeed. Unfortunately this would be an expensive program if it were to be implemented on a wide scale and the various governments are trying their level best to get out of the fish business. I fear steelhead are on their own and are going to survive or go the way of the dodo on their ability to weather the scourge called mankind.
Other random thoughts........................................
How many fish farms do Megin fish pass on their journey in and out of Clayquot sound?
If acid rain is lowering the supply of bugs to juveniles how do you propose to fix it?
On the salmon river there was a fertilization program that the province ran for a number of years back in the early 90's. The increase in bug life was noticeable and the juveniles we sampled were very healthy indeed. Unfortunately this would be an expensive program if it were to be implemented on a wide scale and the various governments are trying their level best to get out of the fish business. I fear steelhead are on their own and are going to survive or go the way of the dodo on their ability to weather the scourge called mankind.
Aces
Well-Known Member
Not since the 40’s. It’s a pristine area
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I didn't know that. When the valley is examined on Google earth you cant even see the old roads or cut lines. Mother nature has taken back over nicely there!
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I would like to blame ff's too but when I tour places on the central coast in areas without ff's there is a similar sterilized effect on some streams but not in others.
As for the acid rain, it is not as acidic now as past years. I just tested last night when the rain first started and again this morning after some accumulation. The first little sample was about 5.3pH. My bowl sits on my deck continuously. There is likely some dry fallout of sulfate that accumulates over the dry times that dissolves in the first bit of rain accumulated. I had dumped the bowl and tested the accumulated precept from last night for a pH of 6. So it is looking good now.
Yes there has been a few fertilization projects done around the province with some success. Of the projects I think they were treating streams for low phosphate and not acidic inputs. I have tried to get our local science community to investigate the changes of bacterial decomposition happening in streams but not much interest yet. Episodes of acid rain would be changing the efficiency of decomposing bacteria and that is what causes the low phosphate. All the salmon carcasses in the world doesn't necessarily fertilize a stream if the bacteria doesn't convert the ammonia to fertilizer. Too much rotting salmon can pollute and kill off ecology from ammonia poisoning. If it was in my hands and I had the resources this is what I would research.
Acid rain is apparently over for now. If you look at the video of China creek you will see what rebounding ecology looks like. If Gold river had an invertebrate biomass over the last two decades anything like present day china creek there would be lots of steelhead there now. I just had a poke into the Stamp river the other day looking for invertes. It was the best showing in over twenty years!! I'll do some more videos to keep for my own records and post them eventually. I am very optimistic for the future but wish it could come faster.
Anthropogenic caused acid rain is now treated at most sources. Factories are now using soda ash to buffer the acidic effluents. What ever comes out of volcanoes in another story though. We are still somewhat at the mercy of mother nature.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Upper Gold summers was something like 50+ and Heber was over 200 I think. Eventually the MOE stats will be out for us to analyze.
Derby, did they get emailed to you yet?
Wiseguy
Member
Thanks for the offer. Better suited for someone who lives on the island. I hate the ferry. Only time I ever use is to come over there to fish. Lol
Ripperoflips
Active Member
The Gold and Muchalat watershed's have been logged for decades, easily six/seven anyway, and had a Pulp and paper mill very close to it's estuary, so now all of a sudden from logging in the last 20 years the Steelhead are gone. I was wondering if the biomass in the system is depleted to the point to not be producing enough to sustain enough bug life to sustain rearing Steelhead smolts. If thats the case there aren't enough pinks,chums, coho and springs dying in the system to create the biomass that's needed.
Dave H
Well-Known Member
I worked at the logging division at Gold River from August 1969 until August 1973.
When I arrived grapple yarders were just new, and we had the first ever Skagit SST serial #10001. It was called Side 6.
When I left we had four GY's and had been double shifting for a year or so plus we had just started logging the upper Gold River watershed and up around Gold Lake, in 1973. Ask Rory Glennie about those days.
That's about 46 years ago now.
Roughly the same for the Muchalat.
Grapple-yarding means much more road building and much more erosion and logging caused landslides after the very steep areas have been logged.
The subsequent "paving" of the substrate bottom of the river took away much of the environment that aquatic insects need to survive, which is one of the main factors identified.
Ocean survival has been very poor the past decade too, for nearly all species of salmon.
There are a couple of fish farm sites out Muchalat Inlet. Who knows what that may mean?
The Gold also gets warm in the Spring much earlier than it used to, and warm water doesn't help either.
Lots of factors here and not any single one rules.
Sad state of affairs.
Take care.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I keep hearing the concept of salmon being the transporters of essential marine driven nutrients that support all the wildlife from insects to trees to bears, ect... Well I think this is just a bunch of bs that gets passed on from biologists to ecologists to fishermen and back again to the point that everyone does believe it. Yep, because all the smart people with fancy labels and titles from scholastic achievements believe it must be true. This is what happens when people don't go out side anymore and the aquatic science is done from a desk.
I posted three videos to bring the real world to the computer screen for all the armchair biologists who just don't get out. Lets compare the invertebrate populations of the three streams and the salmon driven nutrient input for each. If we look at the Stamp, although the natural productivity of the stream has dropped off the charts there has still been years of salmon based enrichment from hatchery enhancement. I have witnessed thousands of hatchery raised salmon spawn and die in the upper Stamp for the last 40+ years yet the invertebrate biomass, as revealed in the video, has died off. Next lets look at the Thompson. The Thompson has been receiving salmon enrichment thru out the system for centuries. Along with the salmon there is agricultural fertilization and there is fertilization from cattle farming. Another form of fertilization for the Thompson is the municipal sewage from cities like Kamloops where it is taken to farms and spread over the land for decomposition. When I went to the Thompson to look for invertebrates there was very few as shown in the video. Now lets look at China creek! China creek has some steep rapids only 1.4 km from tidewater restricting salmon from passage. Summer steelhead can pass this rapid to populate about another 6-7 km. The rest of the watershed has no input from salmon based nutrients and never has. As revealed in the video, China creek has far more invertebrate biomass and diversity than the other streams even without the so called, "essential salmon based nutrient input". Go figure??
In the case of Gold, Gold does have a reasonable sockeye run that reaches way up the headwaters of Oktwanch river. There has been plenty of marine based nutrient transported from salmon to the upper Gold valley. Interestingly it is the Heber river that has the best steelhead returns as of late and I believe Salmon cant pass the rapids in the lower river. Hmmmm...
So only in theory are all these salmon carcasses essential to productivity. In the real world it is obviously a different story.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Dave thank you for you input,
I don't believe logging has caused the insect collapse whatsoever. If you go on Google earth to have a look at China creek watershed you will see that almost every square acre of the watershed has been logged. China has had all the same historic logging practices Gold river has and for just as long but now has good invertebrate populations. If you were to go visit Megin river in Clayquot sound that has not been logged you would see that unlogged watersheds can be just as dead as the lower Gold or Stamp or Thompson.
You mention temperatures being recently warmer. Have you witnessed an annual die off of ecology every summer during heat spells? The worst year I have ever seen for warm waters was 2015. Something good actually happened during the drought of 2015. The didymo algae died off that year. Yes, it was during the drought of 2015 when I started to see improvements in stream ecology all across the island. After the rains returned in 2016 some streams, like China creek, held the newly repopulating invertebrate populations but streams like lower Gold or Stamp rivers didn't. As the rain continues to be less acidic and past deposited sulfates wash out of the soils things should get better everywhere.
Another common belief is the poor ocean conditions with all the ff's and everything. If the conditions are so poor in the ocean how is it that the summer steelhead are making it out and back but the winters aren't?
I keep hearing that there are lots of factors but if you analyze the reproductive and rearing areas of the streams things can be narrowed down a lot. This is where the biggest losses have happened based on my field experience. Streams with high water quality invertebrates rear healthy juvenile fish and have more stable adult returns.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Seems like all the ENGO patriots have no ability to comment on real life field conditions. Just show how powerful the ENGO viruses are and what they have done to seemingly smart people.
I did go to Gold river this past weekend to document the present stream conditions. Here are the results of my findings.
Gold river Helicopter run
Upper Gold river
Gold Heber confluence
Muchalat river
Upper Heber river
So if anyone looks at the videos it is easy to see that the invertebrate biomass in the Heber river is far greater than down in the Gold main stem. Interestingly the habitat that would appear more productive being stable stream bed and annual salmon dispersed nutrient like the Gold and Muchalat rivers are in reality holding less supporting ecology. It is the less stable stream beds with little to no ocean based nutrient input that are proving to be more productive in this system. This should discredit the myth that salmon carcasses are such a necessity for productivity. Anyone who is looking for answers as to why Gold river winter run has died off they don't need to blame seals, logging, ff's or fishing. They only need to get out from behind their computers, block out the lies ENGO's have instilled in their brains and look into the streams. When comparing adult stock assessments there is a match to supporting stream ecology.
If ENGO's really cared about the demise of our fish populations they would be studying the ecology die off that has been happening globally. Obviously there plight is not to save salmon but make money promoting the damage industries are causing.
Here are a few other recent stream videos for comparison.
Campbell river
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WikcmBUv0Y8&t=121s
Quinsam river
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teYD8d-AsHA
China creek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1mm8wGwNTo
I did go to Gold river this past weekend to document the present stream conditions. Here are the results of my findings.
Gold river Helicopter run
Upper Gold river
Gold Heber confluence
Muchalat river
Upper Heber river
So if anyone looks at the videos it is easy to see that the invertebrate biomass in the Heber river is far greater than down in the Gold main stem. Interestingly the habitat that would appear more productive being stable stream bed and annual salmon dispersed nutrient like the Gold and Muchalat rivers are in reality holding less supporting ecology. It is the less stable stream beds with little to no ocean based nutrient input that are proving to be more productive in this system. This should discredit the myth that salmon carcasses are such a necessity for productivity. Anyone who is looking for answers as to why Gold river winter run has died off they don't need to blame seals, logging, ff's or fishing. They only need to get out from behind their computers, block out the lies ENGO's have instilled in their brains and look into the streams. When comparing adult stock assessments there is a match to supporting stream ecology.
If ENGO's really cared about the demise of our fish populations they would be studying the ecology die off that has been happening globally. Obviously there plight is not to save salmon but make money promoting the damage industries are causing.
Here are a few other recent stream videos for comparison.
Campbell river
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WikcmBUv0Y8&t=121s
Quinsam river
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teYD8d-AsHA
China creek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1mm8wGwNTo
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I hear crickets!! Is the Gold rive now forgotten about?
Sharphooks
Well-Known Member
Gold not forgotten....pesticides got the crickets....or maybe....., they’re quietly ruminating about your apparent dismissal of the trophic value of salmon carcasses and their positive effects on benthic macroinvertebrate densities in fish rearing habitat.
I thought there’d been multiple studies done decades ago showing strong evidence that decomposing spawned out salmon are critical to supporting insect life in streams. That appears to be a mantra among stream ecologists which leaves me curious as to why you appear to be a naysayer in that regard...
But props to you for all the work you’re doing .... very interesting videos and we’re grateful that there are guys like you to fight the good fight for the rivers and the fish (and the bugs that support them)
I’m just one of those guys who’s been stumbling around on rivers for the last 40 years and wonders why every year there seems to be less and less of this...
Or this........
I thought there’d been multiple studies done decades ago showing strong evidence that decomposing spawned out salmon are critical to supporting insect life in streams. That appears to be a mantra among stream ecologists which leaves me curious as to why you appear to be a naysayer in that regard...
But props to you for all the work you’re doing .... very interesting videos and we’re grateful that there are guys like you to fight the good fight for the rivers and the fish (and the bugs that support them)
I’m just one of those guys who’s been stumbling around on rivers for the last 40 years and wonders why every year there seems to be less and less of this...
Or this........
Last edited:
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Hi Sharphooks, thanks for the interest.
I doubt very much that it is pesticides and human activities which got the crickets or has been causing the global decline of insects. The reports of insect decline all seem to imply that we are seeing the start of another mass extinction event and that the world has gone thru several in the past. Human activities or pesticides never could have caused the last few extinctions why do they automatically assume that we are the cause of this one? All assumptions. The last thirty years insects have been dying off everywhere including remote areas not exposed to pesticides. Those silly scientists are just noticing something I have known and complained about for over twenty years. They don't even know that the condition is getting better. Maybe it will take another twenty years for them to notice this too.
In regards to the worth of decaying salmon's nutrient contribution in freshwater. I would like to believe the dead salmon are beneficial to food web growth and biomass. It is common belief. I keep getting told that everyone else believes and I should too. Problem is that I believe my own eyes before anything on paper. Because when I go into the streams where there has always been plenty of decaying salmon and there is no food web I believe something different. The videos are the proof. In the videos are three streams in steelhead crisis Thompson, Gold and Stamp rivers. All these streams have had annual deposits of salmon carcasses for many many years but yet have extremely low invertebrate biomass or diversity. In contrast the video of China creek which has very little to no salmon nutrient input shows a stream with far greater invertebrate biomass and diversity. China Creek also doesn't has a steelhead crisis like the others. So despite common belief salmon based nutrient are critical to food webs it is proven to be false in the real world as revealed in the videos.
If I seem to have a flippant attitude it is from being blown off for years when trying to bring this information forward. The world will only believe people who have spent years in schools collecting degrees and certifications but are really interested in hockey or golf for a hobby, right. People, like myself, that have spent their life in the field for employment and who's hobbies are ecology, fishing, hunting, gardening, aquatic science..ect just aren't credible enough to believe. Well that gets a little annoying after a while.
I sure miss fishing the Gold when we used to catch these
Well don't get your hopes up. Before we see many of those again there first needs to be healthy food webs to grow juvenile SH which as revealed in the videos there is not!
Please go into your local streams and see if there is similar collapsed food webs in your favorite fishing holes? Take some videos of different streams. See if the salmon carcasses are creating a bonanza of invertebrates in comparison to streams with no salmon. Look below impassable fish barriers. Please give it the effort and share the information back to me. It will give you your own insight into the future of SH rather than just hearing and reading someone else's opinion.
There is a perfectly good scientific explanation as to why we are seeing such a depression of invertebrates and SH populations. If you really want to know and are not already corrupted by the ENGO fake science or common belief, just read thru my posting history or give me a call. I would be happy to share my knowledge with anyone who cares to discuss it.
Ken 250-720-5118
Similar threads
