Local Guide/Lodge Supports Quota buying of HALIBUT!!!

[Rum Buddies]

good response Lorne - not sure where this guy got the idea he's going to take DFO to small claims court and then win. He's obviously just feeling the pinch like a lot of guides/lodges and like somebody said, got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

 

[searun]

I sent an email to him as well. he is pretty chooked. He is a decent guy I have done some frelance guiding for him a couple times to fill some openings. He said "we dont know how to read" I will leave that at that what ever that means. I politely told him that the industry has banded together and decided to not purchase any quota, and that last year, to my knowledge, not 1 pound was sold, and as far as I know, if he buys some he will be the first and it wont go over well with the boys in the industry. My email was long and in depth, so I hope he sees the danger of it. Because next will certainly be salmo, lings, prawns etc, etc.

Bang on the money...we have to band together on this one. If we don't some light bulb in Ottawa will get the idea Charter guys should buy quota for all fish their guests catch. All we are doing is facilitating taking recreational anglers out on the water. A taxi tour guide service of sorts, not a commercial fishery. Hope you guys can convince him this is just a bad business move to be participating in any way, even if it is to encourage guests to buy their own quota before coming up. Bad idea, plain and simple.

 

[Rum Buddies]

ok in the interest if fair play I will post as per his request his latest response to me. Seems his tone has become much more cordial now that knows people are reading what he has to say. Clearly he doesn't think things through thoroughly before acting, so it would be much appreciated if someone more articulate then myself could help him understand why purchasing quota is NOT the answer.

His latest email:


I will forward you the paper work so you can give your readers the chance to register for quote along with the purchase of quota in distress forums and instructions no how to file a claim in BC small claims. You should use your blog to get people going. The time for talk is over. Pacific Safaris Wild which is my guiding company will be buying quota and will challenge the DFO.

You can do what ever you want but inform yourself on how to negotiate a settlement with the DFO, court and only court and more court. In talking to local lodges owners in our area they will be signing up for quota, I think that most could be talked into a province wide closure for Halibut if they knew there was a class action suit against the DFO for lost fishing opportunities. I recommend that you inform all you readers to register for quota, put pressure on the system. Employees of the DFO would like nothing better than to see our local input have consequence when decisions on openings and regulation are made.

I was at a meeting in Gold River for SFAB 6 years ago, the main topic was prawns. There was a retired fisheries officer that had 35 year of experience with prawning in BC at the meeting as guest to answer our concerns of over fishing. We were putting forth recommendation and I asked him if in the 35 years that he was with the DFO had any of our recommendations to his knowledge been adopted, his answer to me was no. I stopped going to SFAB meeting for that reason. During the last Halibut campaign our company donated two all inclusive trips for two with a value of $10,000.00 to help support costs of the fight, I attend three open forum meeting personally and activity campaign with local MP`s hoping for a better result than we got. Our local MP told me flatly that he was having no success in getting things done with the DFO.

That for me is enough; if you want to recreational fish in BC you better take you panties off and prepare for war. Thank you once again for the exposure, the more you talk about it the better chance I have at converts, keep up the good work. Only one booking for a group of four today from your print, they will only be fishing salmon because there coming in August and it is expected the quota will be done with the majority of fishing benefiting the South Island. Please print this. Cheers

 

[bushwackin]

hmmmm, is it just me?, i just dont get what this guys angle is, i need to get him on the phone and see exactly what he means cause it doesnt make any sense to me...the best way to eliminate a program is to NOT participate in it therefore making it useless and non viable, am i wrong in my thinking?, to participate in something only validates the existence of it, does it not?....this guy baffles me,lmao.....holmes*

His angle is trying to twist things around to make it look like he is trying to do good for the cause because he was confronted by everyone on it. My opinion is he is just a lying greedy shitbag trying to make an extra buck.

 

[trophywife]

rather than buying in mr pacific safaris??? if dfo closes in aug i think we should all go fishing and see if dfo can keep up with the courts being full of protest fishers...customers included, i have some customers that are well informed as they missed their trip last year and i missed the income and bamfield dint make any money off any of us cause of it... guess what they wanna do in sept again this year? sport fish for halibut that is already legally theirs!!

 

[bushwackin]

And he says the local lodges are on the same program as him? ********, he's such a liar! There's Newton Cove and Rodgers. Holmes you should ask My Escape if that's his program. I think we already know the answer

 

[profisher]

I know a guy in Victoria who registered for the special license and who put in for quota. He explained that you buy quota but don't actually pay for it. Your supposed to keep records of your pounds caught then remit for what you use and give back the un-used back to the commercial pool. His idea was that everyone should get 1,000 pounds of quota as you don't pay for it up front. Then our SFAB tells DFO that we are all fishing bought quota and our recreational quota is untouched. So the season stays open till Dec 31st. The we all submit 0 pounds as being caught and return all the quota back to the commercial guys who won't be able to fish it as the year would be up. Just his way of sticking a dumb program back in their face.

 

[fish4all]

I know a guy in Victoria who registered for the special license and who put in for quota. He explained that you buy quota but don't actually pay for it. Your supposed to keep records of your pounds caught then remit for what you use and give back the un-used back to the commercial pool. His idea was that everyone should get 1,000 pounds of quota as you don't pay for it up front. Then our SFAB tells DFO that we are all fishing bought quota and our recreational quota is untouched. So the season stays open till Dec 31st. The we all submit 0 pounds as being caught and return all the quota back to the commercial guys who won't be able to fish it as the year would be up. Just his way of sticking a dumb program back in their face.

I think you were misinformed a bit here. You have to pay for the quota before you get it. check out the website at IQMI. Yes the commercials agreed to buy any unused portion back at the same price as was paid.

 

[juandesooka]

pretty sure that's wrong fish4all, unless they've changed it. When introduced, the new program required you to sign up for the sticker and that's it. Then you keep track of fish caught under it, and have to buy quota for it within a certain amount of time -- I believe it was end of January of the following year. To me, that's the biggest danger of the program ... the sticker on your boat gives you free license to fish all the halibut you want now, no limits, no season, and pay later. So being in possession of too many fish or at the wrong time is no longer a crime in itself. So, if it happens that no one records your catch, I'd guess many won't report fish needing to be paid for later. In other words, that sticker is potentially a ticket to rampant, uncontrolled over-fishing potential, with virtually no enforcement possible. I believe the ethical anglers will continue to follow the rules, but the bad eggs spoil it for all -- and this program gives the abusers the ammo they need for a conservation disaster.

PS Link to program webpage: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/...halibut-fletan/docs/2012/presentation-eng.htm

You need to arrange for "a temporary reallocation of quota", minimum 1 pound.
If you catch above this, you then need to reconcile your total by Jan 31, 2013. (and unused quota is transferred to next year's commercial limit...sorry Holmes)
If checked by DFO and have more than rec limit, showing you are enrolled in this program will suffice.
You are supposed to keep a logbook of catches, submit within 7 days. To me, that's the key ... for this program to work, has to be strict rules about recording catch and very serious penalties for non-compliance (like lose your boat). Without that, this program is a ticket to over-fish with little risk of getting caught ... completely the opposite of what they are intending.

 

[Whole in the Water]

ok in the interest if fair play I will post as per his request his latest response to me. Seems his tone has become much more cordial now that knows people are reading what he has to say. Clearly he doesn't think things through thoroughly before acting, so it would be much appreciated if someone more articulate then myself could help him understand why purchasing quota is NOT the answer.

His latest email:


I will forward you the paper work so you can give your readers the chance to register for quote along with the purchase of quota in distress forums and instructions no how to file a claim in BC small claims. You should use your blog to get people going. The time for talk is over. Pacific Safaris Wild which is my guiding company will be buying quota and will challenge the DFO.

You can do what ever you want but inform yourself on how to negotiate a settlement with the DFO, court and only court and more court. In talking to local lodges owners in our area they will be signing up for quota, I think that most could be talked into a province wide closure for Halibut if they knew there was a class action suit against the DFO for lost fishing opportunities. I recommend that you inform all you readers to register for quota, put pressure on the system. Employees of the DFO would like nothing better than to see our local input have consequence when decisions on openings and regulation are made.

I was at a meeting in Gold River for SFAB 6 years ago, the main topic was prawns. There was a retired fisheries officer that had 35 year of experience with prawning in BC at the meeting as guest to answer our concerns of over fishing. We were putting forth recommendation and I asked him if in the 35 years that he was with the DFO had any of our recommendations to his knowledge been adopted, his answer to me was no. I stopped going to SFAB meeting for that reason. During the last Halibut campaign our company donated two all inclusive trips for two with a value of $10,000.00 to help support costs of the fight, I attend three open forum meeting personally and activity campaign with local MP`s hoping for a better result than we got. Our local MP told me flatly that he was having no success in getting things done with the DFO.

That for me is enough; if you want to recreational fish in BC you better take you panties off and prepare for war. Thank you once again for the exposure, the more you talk about it the better chance I have at converts, keep up the good work. Only one booking for a group of four today from your print, they will only be fishing salmon because there coming in August and it is expected the quota will be done with the majority of fishing benefiting the South Island. Please print this. Cheers

Calling Mr. John Murray: Your response above is confusing and rambling. Are you truely wanting to take DFO to court, or just BS'ing people?

To prove that you are serious about taking DFO to court please explain your case against them, how you expect to win and force them to change their current halibut allocation policy.

If you can't or don't respond to this request then I think it would be fair for us to assume that you are BS'ing us and your purchase of halibut quota is strickly for your own shortsighted, greed.

 

[fish4all]

pretty sure that's wrong fish4all, unless they've changed it. When introduced, the new program required you to sign up for the sticker and that's it. Then you keep track of fish caught under it, and have to buy quota for it within a certain amount of time -- I believe it was end of January of the following year. To me, that's the biggest danger of the program ... the sticker on your boat gives you free license to fish all the halibut you want now, no limits, no season, and pay later. So being in possession of too many fish or at the wrong time is no longer a crime in itself. So, if it happens that no one records your catch, I'd guess many won't report fish needing to be paid for later. In other words, that sticker is potentially a ticket to rampant, uncontrolled over-fishing potential, with virtually no enforcement possible. I believe the ethical anglers will continue to follow the rules, but the bad eggs spoil it for all -- and this program gives the abusers the ammo they need for a conservation disaster.

PS Link to program webpage: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/...halibut-fletan/docs/2012/presentation-eng.htm

You need to arrange for "a temporary reallocation of quota", minimum 1 pound.
If you catch above this, you then need to reconcile your total by Jan 31, 2013. (and unused quota is transferred to next year's commercial limit...sorry Holmes)
If checked by DFO and have more than rec limit, showing you are enrolled in this program will suffice.
You are supposed to keep a logbook of catches, submit within 7 days. To me, that's the key ... for this program to work, has to be strict rules about recording catch and very serious penalties for non-compliance (like lose your boat). Without that, this program is a ticket to over-fish with little risk of getting caught ... completely the opposite of what they are intending.

You are correct that you only need to purchase 1 lb of fish on the license. And yes proper accountability is key to sustaining any fishery.

 

[juandesooka]

"proper accountability is key to sustaining any fishery"

Agreed. And accountability's necessary step-sisters are enforcement and penalties for non-compliance. As I see it, in the commercial fishery, the potential for abuse is on such a huge scale, that accountability required a big brother approach ... videotaping, observers on board, etc., with exceptionally severe penalties for breach.

This license program gives commercial level harvesting potential to the recreational sector, but without these stringent measures for ensuring accountability -- both in monitoring and in penalizing breaches. Regardless of fishery politics and the squabbles about allocation, this program is a dud -- at worst, bringing potential for massive abuse, complete loss of conservation control, and virtually no hope for enforcement.

So far, DFO may be lucky that the recreational sector's political opposition means this hasn't taken off. Because if it does become widespread, then I suspect they will face a worse mess than ever. Like that chinese curse "may you get what you wish for" -- this ill-conceived program will compound the problems faced in the halibut fishery.

 

[Rum Buddies]

Calling Mr. John Murray: Your response above is confusing and rambling. Are you truely wanting to take DFO to court, or just BS'ing people?

To prove that you are serious about taking DFO to court please explain your case against them, how you expect to win and force them to change their current halibut allocation policy.

If you can't or don't respond to this request then I think it would be fair for us to assume that you are BS'ing us and your purchase of halibut quota is strickly for your own shortsighted, greed.

He's full of sh*t and doesn't have the testicular fortitude to come defend his position. Here's his latest rambling nonsense:

I understand the process, how do you intent to deal with the decision? Negotiate? Have you ever been to court? You can mount a case against anybody in small claims for a fraction the cost of provincial court and they are forced to defend your charges. If they cannot prove that they had the right to issue quota and allowed it to be sold by private interests without taking are rights into consideration they will be found guilty and will have to pay you the amount you paid for your quota, end of story.

If you don’t win nothing lost and a point was made, multiple that by 500 and you have action. Anyway do your best, I wont affect any of your actions but I tired of debate. I have 10 years commercial halibut fishing experience, my grandfather started fishing westward in 1910 and I personal know at least half of the quota holder in this province so scrap the idea that I’m misinformed and open you eyes, get on board save our fish, protect or coasts. There’s a push by the fed’s to get BC under control. It started with the HST and is going to continue with all or resources. Litigate not negotiate is the word of the day. Why don’t you run a poll to see if your bloggers are for litigate or negotiate, I think you will be surprised, I know all me friend have had enough. Another thing you should consider, I’m getting feed back that a lot of guides are afraid that the same thing that happen to the commercial fishermen with quota allocations may happen to them if they don’t participate in the quota system.

Those commercial fishermen that targeted Hali’s prior to quota allocation were reward with bigger quotas, a valid concern for all involved. Remember it’s not wrong to come at DFO from more that one direction but you personal attack on me and the people that I work for was counter productive and isolates you as a friend of fish for us. Recreational fishing should not require quota, agreed? That’s the result that I want.

 

[Sculpin]

He's full of sh*t and doesn't have the testicular fortitude to come defend his position. Here's his latest rambling nonsense:

I understand the process, how do you intent to deal with the decision? Negotiate? Have you ever been to court? You can mount a case against anybody in small claims for a fraction the cost of provincial court and they are forced to defend your charges. If they cannot prove that they had the right to issue quota and allowed it to be sold by private interests without taking are rights into consideration they will be found guilty and will have to pay you the amount you paid for your quota, end of story.

If you don’t win nothing lost and a point was made, multiple that by 500 and you have action. Anyway do your best, I wont affect any of your actions but I tired of debate. I have 10 years commercial halibut fishing experience, my grandfather started fishing westward in 1910 and I personal know at least half of the quota holder in this province so scrap the idea that I’m misinformed and open you eyes, get on board save our fish, protect or coasts. There’s a push by the fed’s to get BC under control. It started with the HST and is going to continue with all or resources. Litigate not negotiate is the word of the day. Why don’t you run a poll to see if your bloggers are for litigate or negotiate, I think you will be surprised, I know all me friend have had enough. Another thing you should consider, I’m getting feed back that a lot of guides are afraid that the same thing that happen to the commercial fishermen with quota allocations may happen to them if they don’t participate in the quota system.

Those commercial fishermen that targeted Hali’s prior to quota allocation were reward with bigger quotas, a valid concern for all involved. Remember it’s not wrong to come at DFO from more that one direction but you personal attack on me and the people that I work for was counter productive and isolates you as a friend of fish for us. Recreational fishing should not require quota, agreed? That’s the result that I want.

I'm reading into this as propaganda from the commercial sector trying to get guides to buy in to the program. I wonder if his old buddies are paying him to promote the program? His wording is confusing and conflicting but the message is there. The purchase quota system is a dud. I am extremely disappointed it was extended to this year. I was hoping after the lack of participation with the program last year, that it would have been shelved.

 

[fish4all]

"proper accountability is key to sustaining any fishery"

Agreed. And accountability's necessary step-sisters are enforcement and penalties for non-compliance. As I see it, in the commercial fishery, the potential for abuse is on such a huge scale, that accountability required a big brother approach ... videotaping, observers on board, etc., with exceptionally severe penalties for breach.

This license program gives commercial level harvesting potential to the recreational sector, but without these stringent measures for ensuring accountability -- both in monitoring and in penalizing breaches. Regardless of fishery politics and the squabbles about allocation, this program is a dud -- at worst, bringing potential for massive abuse, complete loss of conservation control, and virtually no hope for enforcement.

So far, DFO may be lucky that the recreational sector's political opposition means this hasn't taken off. Because if it does become widespread, then I suspect they will face a worse mess than ever. Like that chinese curse "may you get what you wish for" -- this ill-conceived program will compound the problems faced in the halibut fishery.

Fully agree that enforcement and penalties are needed to curb abuse.

I would again go back to the point of the 270,000 anglers. IMO this amount of effort has the ability to dwarf the abuse that was happening in the commercial fishery. I would also add that DFO has already lost conservation control in the recreational fishery.

 

[Whole in the Water]

Fully agree that enforcement and penalties are needed to curb abuse.

I would again go back to the point of the 270,000 anglers. IMO this amount of effort has the ability to dwarf the abuse that was happening in the commercial fishery. I would also add that DFO has already lost conservation control in the recreational fishery.

So fish4all, we know you are a hack for the commercial sector, but are you really that dense or just purposely trying to say stupid things to **** guys off on a recreational sector fishing forum. Obviuously it is the latter. Seriously Dude shut it up!

I suggest that the rest of us just ignore him when he says stuff like this. My 2 bits.

 

[Labman2]

I'm not Google friendly, so after a few unsuccesful attempts, I was unable to find anything that would indicate exactly how many people bought quota last year.
Does anyone have a link?
Does anyone personally know someone that did?

 

[Rum Buddies]

well i just tried calling 1-877-488-0045...the number that good ole john boy provided and its a fax machine,lol....this guy is all mouth...im ready to throw down on the phone and no show?....anyone have a real number?....arrg...holmes*

call him direct: John Murray 250 951 6750

 

[juandesooka]

I would again go back to the point of the 270,000 anglers. IMO this amount of effort has the ability to dwarf the abuse that was happening in the commercial fishery. I would also add that DFO has already lost conservation control in the recreational fishery.

That "who is worse" debate has been hashed out many times without success, will always end with points both ways and agreeing to disagree. So not going to touch that. The point here is about the flaws in this quota license program. The #1 conservation control for recreational angers is the daily and possession limit. Having more than you're allowed is de facto a breach ... easy to assess, easy to enforce. Simply having the fish makes it an obvious crime. The quota system eliminates the one basic control they have. There's already not enough enforcement -- I can see this program, if adopted widely, as eliminating DFO's ability to police halibut fishing at all. Bonus for unscrupulous anglers ... everyone else pays. That's a flawed program.

 

[Rum Buddies]

Fully agree that enforcement and penalties are needed to curb abuse.

I would again go back to the point of the 270,000 anglers. IMO this amount of effort has the ability to dwarf the abuse that was happening in the commercial fishery. I would also add that DFO has already lost conservation control in the recreational fishery.

I keep rereading your post to see if you really are trying to make as asinine a statement as I think you are? Is this really the most intelligent argument you can fashion?