It is legal

islandboy

Well-Known Member
As of today

"http://www.timescolonist.com/natives+claim+victory+court+ruling+commercial+fisheries/2179770/story.html"

I hope this is a step towards equal status for all fishermen.

www.kayaks2.com
 
Don't believe it says selling for a ceremonial venture but relies on past practice of trading seafood to the whites for trade purposes thereby creating a laissez fair market .

AL
 
The justification is not that selling fish is ceremonial. The justification is that, prior to contact, these people traded fish, and the right to do so was not abolished by the Crown prior to the repatriation of the Constitution in 1982. Therefore, they have a constitutionally protected aboriginal right to do so, under section 35. It is not a matter of political correctness, it is a matter of legal correctness. I wouldn't get to worked up about it if I were you; these rights have been established by thousands of years of territorial occupation, economic activity and traditional practice. Such rights are entirely unattainable by immigrant populations, but we are still doing alright. Try not to get jealous.

On a side note, the tongue-in-cheek reference to "white man's rights" is a little distasteful. Such a statement marginalizes non-white immigrant groups from the discussion, and presumably excludes them from the rights. This is a matter of political correctness.
 
What have you got to trade..LOL

On a side note " I told you so!"

Take only what you need.
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"On a side note, the tongue-in-cheek reference to "white man's rights" is a little distasteful. Such a statement marginalizes non-white immigrant groups from the discussion, and presumably excludes them from the rights. This is a matter of political correctness."

Spoken just the way a lawyer would phrase it (as is the reference to the constitution). You wouldn't happen to be an esteemed member of the legal system would you now? Perhaps we require less legal system and more justice system? Oops!!! Was that politically incorrect? Hope I didn't marginalize any of you hypersensitive folks!

Disco down!
 
Disco,

Welcome to SFBC. I don't think you like what I had to say. Bummer.

My comment with regard to the court decision was not meant as a defense, it was meant as an explanation (although I personally think it is a just result). In my opinion, fish stocks in the North Pacific are in trouble. I am also of the opinion that a unified coalition of user groups, especially recreational and FN fishers, would be the strongest possible and most compelling voice for preservation and conservation. I know from experience that court decisions like this can widen the gulf between groups who should be the closest allies. In this case, a clear explanation of the factual and legal basis of the result could help to put it in perspective and minimize negative reactions. That is my intention.

The bit about marginalization was actually a little tongue-in-cheek itself, although I am a strong proponent of the sentiment it conveyed. Perhaps the intended humor would have been more clearly expressed if I had used a [:eek:)], a :D, a [:p] or even a [V]. But because I was ultimately making a serious point, I thought emoticons out of place.

Though it is none of your business, I am not a lawyer. But I do sometimes ride a very high horse, mostly because I enjoy the view.
 
Bloody marvelous dry sense of humour comeback , love it !!!!
disco wouldn't be River6x in drag by any chance ?

AL
 
I have been asking myself if there was a polite or diplomatic or politically correct way to suggest that The FISH ASSassin lay off with the taunting or flaunting attitude . No , there probably isn`t !!
Is it coincidence that this poster very much reminds me of the missing Rob Warren? (If I correctly remember his name)
 
quote:Originally posted by Steelhead S2

My comment with regard to the court decision was not meant as a defense, it was meant as an explanation (although I personally think it is a just result). In my opinion, fish stocks in the North Pacific are in trouble. I am also of the opinion that a unified coalition of user groups, especially recreational and FN fishers, would be the strongest possible and most compelling voice for preservation and conservation. I know from experience that court decisions like this can widen the gulf between groups who should be the closest allies. In this case, a clear explanation of the factual and legal basis of the result could help to put it in perspective and minimize negative reactions. That is my intention.

Well said! I wholeheartedly support First Nation's rights to traditional activities. Where I get confused is when they adopt modern technologies to carry out these activities. If, as one judge suggested (I paraphrase), 'it would have been a natural evolution to modern technology'; then does it not follow that the method of conservation would have evolved to the same as those providing the modern technology?

www.kayaks2.com
 
Good on ya Island Boy!
If there's a right to conduct "traditional activities" as done in the distant and not-so-distant past why is it not done using traditional methods? Yes, else ware on this forum (see Goldstream) some members pointed out that some traditional methods would see building huge fish traps on sensitive rivers, etc. but if some sense is used I could see this being nothing but a good thing for aboriginal and non-aboriginal alike. Imagine how much traditional knowledge would be conveyed throughout the first nations people from elders to kids if traditional equipment was made and used and traditional preparing/preserving methods were employed more than just for a few fish for ceremonial purposes! And imagine how much more native culture and history non-aboriginals would be exposed to seeing these activities first hand on the water! Now tell me how working a 90' steel seiner decimating entire schools of fish as a "traditional fishery" has any cultural content at all.

I recognize that first nations people have to make a living like anyone else and so doing enough of all these traditional methods to get enough salmon to feed everyone would be a full time job in itself and possibly preclude a 'normal' life/job. To that I would support a small fishery to supplement the traditional catch, the numbers of which need to be justified by the population they are supplying.

Here's my 'dream' for the BC salmon fishery:

Commercial: Troller and small-scale reefnets only. Limit the # of lines on a troller so we don't end up with "super troller" with 100's of lines out. This would conserve, reduce by-catch all the while bringing up employment by bringing up the number of people fishing per fish. It would also increase the overall quality of commercially caught BC Salmon.

Native: Traditional fishing methods supplemented by a small troller food fish. Times/places where traditional fisheries were planned would set boundaries where they can be conducted without interference.

Sport Fish: Of course more local monitoring (only reason clams are closed everywhere is they don't test in very many places). Up the licence cost to help pay for this but provide discounts for people involved in salmon enhancement or who donate to these projects.


I grew up on a rural island where the First Nations on the local reserve would go out on their welded steel seiners and bring back the food fish allowance whether it was needed or not. I could not see any traditional value in the actual fishing of it at all. Many of the fish ended up rotting in the sun on the government wharf before being chucked overboard. I know they did do a limited amount of traditional smoking/cooking but the rest just seemed like such a waste with the justification that it was their right. And it was and is...but is it right? Is it gaining anything or keeping traditions alive? It seems like such a 'value added' type of thing to be employing traditional activities through the entire process, and actually in keeping with the "traditional culture" claims to these fisheries. This latest ruling just seems to be a way to circumvent the regular commercial fishing regs under the guise of 'tradition', which in my opinion cheapens the word.

I must admit though, the story confused me: were they not permitted to fish commercially as anyone who shells out the coin for a licence and boat can prior to this ruling? Is it just that they want to be able to fish in their traditional territory which would otherwise be closed to commercial activity? If that's the case isn't it circumventing conservation efforts by DFO (limited as they may be)?

This is an outsider looking in I guess. Maybe someone has a convincing logical argument to the contrary? I understand "traditional lands" or "traditional waters" but if it's for the sake of tradition and not monetary advantage, why not "traditional methods"?

The worst day fishing is better than the best day working...
 
Hey geo tonz, I hope you confused Trawler for Troller?

Trawling is probably the most destructive and least forgiving fishing method there is and should be flat out banned IMHO. Not only does it destroy any bottom habitat that is in its way but also experiences a high mortality in bycatch.
 
Here is one interpretation from the commercial fishing sector ...

By Phil Eidsvik
November 4, 2009

Yesterday, Madame Justice Garson of the Supreme Court of BC ruled in favour of a limited Nuu-chah-nulth aboriginal right to sell all species of fish within part of their claimed traditional territory. See Ahousat Indian Band and Nation v. Canada (Attorney General) 2009 BCSC 1494 at: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/09/14/2009BCSC1494.htm

Justice Garson#146;s ruling is rife with mistakes in law and fact (some parts are plainly absurd and indicate serious problems with her reasoning), but that does not change the effect of the ruling unless it is overturned by the next court up the ladder #150; the BC Court of Appeal. From the BCCA, it will likely go to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Garson#146;s ruling goes directly against the 1996 Supreme Court of Canada ruling in N.T.C. Smokehouse which ruled against the Nuu-chah-nulth claim:

The findings of fact made by the trial judge do not support the appellant's claim that, prior to contact, the exchange of fish for money or other goods was an integral part of the distinctive cultures of the Sheshaht or Opetchesaht. Sales of fish that were "few and far between" cannot be said to have the defining status and significance necessary for this Court to hold that the Sheshaht or Opetchesaht have an aboriginal right to exchange fish for money or other goods. Further, exchanges of fish at potlatches and at ceremonial occasions, because incidental to those events, do not have the independent significance necessary to constitute an aboriginal right#133; The exchange of fish, when taking place apart from the occasion to which such exchange was incidental, cannot, even if that occasion was an integral part of the aboriginal society in question, constitute an aboriginal right.

Justice Garson simply ignored Canada#146;s highest court on this point.

Earlier this year, Justice Satanove, also from the B.C. Supreme Court, looked at similar evidence in the case of aboriginal claimants in north-coast BC and rejected their claim to an aboriginal commercial fishing right except possibly a limited right to sell oolichans. See Lax Kw#146;alaams Indian Band v. Canada (Attorney General) 2008 BCSC 447 at: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/Jdb-txt/SC/08/04/2008BCSC0447.htm

Justice Satanove held:

In particular, I am of the view that the plaintiffs have failed on the second step to prove on a balance of probabilities that their predecessors conducted a trade in Fish Resources and Products, before contact with Europeans, that in any way was #147;a central and significant part of their society#146;s distinctive culture#148;, or in any way #147;made [their] society truly what it was#148; (R. v. Van der Peet). I agree with the defendant#146;s submission that trading in all species of Fish Resources and Fish Products, besides eulachon grease, was low volume, opportunistic, irregular, for FSC purposes, and incidental to fundamental pre-contact Coast Tsimshian kinship relations, potlatch and ranked society. (para. 496)

Justice Satanove opened her ruling in Lax Kw#146;allams with the following statement:

At the end of the day, the parties have chosen to bring their claim to a court of law, not to a political forum, and they are entitled to receive an impartial adjudication that resolves their dispute by the application of the laws of Canada to the facts as I find them from the evidence before me. (para. 8) (emphasis added)

Justice Satanove clearly understands the role of the courts in deciding this type of dispute, but I cannot say that Justice Garson is of the same mind. Following below is my initial analysis of the Ahousaht decision. I have left the numerous errors in law made by Justice Garson for another day. My intent here is simply to summarize the decision and point out some of the absurd conclusions based on the evidence before the court.

I. THE RULING

The main points in Justice Garson#146;s decision are:

the most appropriate characterization of the modern right is simply the right to fish and to sell fish#133; Beyond stating that the right does not extend to a modern industrial fishery or to unrestricted rights of commercial sale, I decline to do so#133; Broadly speaking, the right is not an unlimited right to fish on an industrial scale, but it does encompass a right to sell fish in the commercial marketplace. (paras. 487-489)

.where an aboriginal right has no internal limitation, as here, the notion of exclusive priority must be rejected.#148; (para. 874)

On a north/south basis, the waters extend from about 20 kilometers south of Bamfield to and 40 kilometers north of Zeballos. East/west, the waters are from the beach to nine miles seaward (paras. 414-489 - there is a hard to read map attached at the end of the ruling)

The Nuu-chah-nulth also claimed ownership of #147;the rivers, foreshore areas (not the upland), and bodies of water below the low water mark and extending 100 nautical miles seaward. With respect to rivers, each Nuu-chah-nulth Nation claims a specific #147;test case#148; river or rivers within its territory.#148; (para. 495)

Theses title claims were dismissed: #147;Even assuming that a claim to submerged lands is legally tenable, of which I have some doubt, it is not necessary that I decide the plaintiffs#146; aboriginal title claim, and I decline to do so.#148; (para. 496)

II. JUSTICE GARSON'S VIEW OF COMMERCIAL FISHING

If it was not so serious, it would be hard not to be amused by some of Justice Garson#146;s conclusions stemming from the evidence. Here are three examples:

1. Infringement by Buyback

Al Wood (the former DFO bureaucrat?) testified as the fisheries expert on behalf of the Nuu-chah-nulth. He noted that they had 89 commercial salmon licences in 1995, but 52 were sold into the buyback program and 14 more were sold to other Canadians for a total Nuu-chah-nulth decrease of 74%. If I remember correctly, the government paid from $75,000 to $400,000 for the licences in the buyback.

According to Justice Garson, the payment of $5 million (at $75K per licence) to Nuu-chah-nulth fishermen who voluntarily sold their licences is #147;evidence of infringement#148; of the Nuu-chah-nulth right to fish commercially.

2. Infringement on Geoduck

Geoduck typically live well below the tideline. In our research over the years we have found no record of traditional aboriginal harvesting of geoduck let alone sale or barter. Even today, geoduck are harvested by a fishermen using scuba gear and are air-freighted live to markets in China because there are few markets in North America.

Despite these facts, not only did Justice Garson ruled that the commercial sale of geoduck was an integral part of Nuu-chah-nulth life for thousands of years prior to European contact, but the Nuu-chah-nulth right to fish commercially is #147;infringed in respect to the geoduck fishery.#148; (para. 587)

3. Infringement by Leasing

In addition to the millions paid by DFO to buyback commercial licenses owned by Nuu-chah-nulth fishermen, DFO gave the Nuu-chah-nulth an additional $20 million to spend on their food fishery and it also bought and transferred millions of dollars worth of salmon, crab, halibut and other licences to the Nuu-chah-nulth. Many of these licences are leased out and a number of Nuu-chah-nulth fishermen also lease out their licences including halibut quota. Here is part of the discussion in the ruling on this point:

It was pointed out#133; in cross-examination that the Nuu-chah-nulth do have 25 communal commercial licences, some of which are leased to non-Nuu-chah-nulth fishers. He responded that some of them are not being fished because of the current poor state of the salmon fishery and some are not fished because there are no fishers with suitable vessels who can afford to fish. (para. 660)

In response, Justice Garson ruled:

there are now only a handful of active full-time Nuu-chah-nulth commercial fishers#133; the individual quota system #147;squeezed#148; the Nuu-chah-nulth out of the halibut fishery #150;Nuu-chah-nulth participation in the commercial fishery has been reduced to three or four active fishermen. (para. 680)

I agree, that most of their licences are in the lower value fisheries. Moreover, the plaintiffs do not utilize some of their licences because they do not have sufficient capital to fish those licences. (para. 681)

In conclusion, I find that these programs, while well-intentioned, have not significantly supported Nuu-chah-nulth participation in the commercial fishery... (.para. 73)

In effect, Justice Garson concluded that it is DFO#146;s fault that Nuu-chah-nulth fishermen voluntarily lease out their licences instead of fish the licences and because not enough Nuu-chah-nulth fishermen are #147;active#148; fishermen DFO has infringed the Nuu-chah-nulth commercial fishing right.

The question of whether these and other #147;infringements#148; of the Nuu-chah-nulth commercial fishing right are legally justifiable has been left for a future court.


III. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

DFO cannot ignore the Supreme Court of Canada decision in N.T.C. Smokehouse in which the court rejected a Nuu-chah-nulth right to sell or trade and barter salmon. Neither can DFO ignore the decision by Justice Satanove of the BC Supreme Court in which she rejected a Tsimpshean commercial right on basically the same evidence.

That said, Justice Garson ruled that DFO should negotiate how much fishing opportunity to give to the Nuu-chah-nulth and the Supreme Court of Canada has restated again and again that the involvement of other fishermen in the commercial fishery is a relevant factor in deciding how much to give an aboriginal group with a commercial right.

There are three things that DFO does NOT have to do:
a. immediately start reallocating fish or licences to the Nuu-chah-nulth;

b. establish race-based commercial fisheries or let Nuu-chah-nulth fisheries operate their commercial fisheries under different rules or regulations;

c. turn fishery management authority over to the Nuu-chah-nulth #150; DFO is clearly the fishery manager, not the Nuu-chah-nulth.

Given the number of licenses already held by the Nuu-chah-nulth and the variety of fishing families that already depend upon the fish resource on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, the Nuu-chah-nulth may already have sufficient licences. If not, DFO can do as it did in the Maritimes following the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Marshall, any increase in the Nuu-chah-nulth commercial fishery can be accommodated simply by buying and transferring additional licences to the Nuu-chah-nulth. These licenses will then be fished under the same rules and regulations as all other Canadians.

IV. CONCLUSION

If Justice Garson#146;s loose interpretation of facts and law is allowed to stand, there will be few aboriginal groups in Canada who will not be able to prove a commercial fishing right. Though any licence transfers can be done with minimal impacts, Justice Garson#146;s decision will have tremendous consequences for other Canadians who engage in recreational and commercial fishing as public access to the fishery becomes non-existent.

We should expect an immediate appeal of this decision by the federal government. The Gordon Campbell government dropped out of this case because he did not want to offend the Nuu-chah-nulth, so it has to be the government of Canada that appeals. Clearly, Campbell has picked a side in this dispute and it is not on the side of the average fishing family in B.C.

BC Fisheries Survival Coalition.








God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
 
This just gives them the right to dump the fish they cant sell, in
the ditch like the rest of them do.
 
quote:Originally posted by perch

This just gives them the right to dump the fish they cant sell, in
the ditch like the rest of them do.

I'll try to do my part to ensure this doesn't happen.

Take only what you need.
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This is a total joke, give them more power to abuse the resource.
 
quote:This is a total joke, give them more power to abuse the resource.

What you must mean is... Give them more power to control their resources.

Take only what you need.
3641877346_d9919f98d0.jpg
 
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