Totally agree addressing predation will deliver the best outcome. Predation comes from many sources however with humans being on top of the food chain.
Here we go again, by Bob Hooton .
- Thread starter OldBlackDog
- Start date
Agreed Terrin - and look @ the reductions in TAC since 1995 or so below. So... what else might be taking lots of salmon?
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OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
This,
From this study,At the broadest level, the major implication of our results is that most of the salmon conservation problem is determined in the ocean by common processes. Attempts to improve SARs by addressing region‐specific issues such as freshwater habitat degradation or salmon aquaculture in coastal zones are therefore unlikely to be successful. Given the importance of these conclusions, we call for a joint systematic review by major funding agencies to further assess the broader consistency and comparability of SAR data with our findings.
Abstract
We collated smolt‐to‐adult return rate (SAR) data for Chinook salmon from all available regions of the Pacific coast of North America to examine the large‐scale patterns of salmon survival. For consistency, our analyses primarily used coded wire tag‐based (CWT) SAR estimates. Survival collapsed over the past half century by roughly a factor of three to ca. 1% for many regions. Within the Columbia River, the SARs of Snake River populations, often singled out as exemplars of poor survival, are unexceptional and in fact higher than estimates reported from many other regions of the west coast lacking dams. Given the seemingly congruent decline in SARs to similar levels, the notion that contemporary survival is driven primarily by broader oceanic factors rather than local factors should be considered. Ambitious Columbia River rebuilding targets may be unachievable because other regions with nearly pristine freshwater conditions, such as SE Alaska and northern BC, also largely fail to reach these levels. Passive integrated transponder (PIT) tag‐based SAR estimates available for Columbia River Basin populations are generally consistent with CWT findings; however, PIT tag‐based SARs are not adjusted for harvest which compromises their intended use because harvest rates are large and variable. More attention is needed on how SARs should be quantified and how rebuilding targets are defined. We call for a systematic review by funding agencies to assess consistency and comparability of the SAR data generated and to further assess the implications of survival falling to similar levels in most regions of the west coast.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...SKZytUDGFvzoTy8mKHNOIdltZYsRO318y7h2HnrC0yTlE
OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
Means nothing if they all die at sea.
Yes, but where are the graphs that show gill netting by FN both legal and illegal? I suspect that the FN gillnetting graph would have the exact same trends.
And to add ammunition to your pinniped angle, get a decent sample size ( 100+ ) of deceased pinnipeds during the window of smolt migration and quantify just how many smolt the average fur bag is consuming.
It is quite likely that both gill netting and pinnipeds need to be addressed. It is also quite likely that neither will be addressed.
searun
Well-Known Member
Here's another perspective - Have you watched Rob Bison's presentation? He ranks the recovery benefits of various actions we could take to recover steelhead. https://bcwf.bc.ca/recovery-and-persistence-of-endangered-interior-fraser-steelhead-webinar/
1. Double survival from inshore predation (pinnipeds) = change in pre-fishery abundance - 486%; change in spawner abundance - 486%
2. Steelhead fishing mortality to zero (removal of gill nets) = change in pre-fishery abundance - 11%; change in spawner abundance - 39%
3. Maximize fry to parr survival (habitat improvements) = change in pre-fishery abundance - 10%; change in spawner abundance - 10%
Simple cost/benefit analysis - points to the significant role predation is having on Thompson steelhead, but also has coast-wide import.
So looking back in the historical pattern of stock declines and broadening the scope of this thread discussion to the coast-wide declines of steelhead perhaps you can help me understand how the role of gill nets has contributed to this broad coast-wide pattern?
Please support that hypothesis with science to explain for me how gill nets are responsible for this coastal trend in stock status? I'm looking for that convincing common denominator that clearly connects the dots proving gill nets are the causal factor. I think this is a legitimate question, and look forward to hearing the science-based arguments supporting the hypothesis being offered here in this thread discussion, please. Thank you.
I have no doubt, coast wide it would be very helpful to decrease pinneped populations ( good luck with that happening though ). Have you seen the video of the seiner that got fined ( I think it was $8000 ) for throwing a seal bomb into a mess of sea lions to scare then away. Imagine if he had the audacity to actually kill some?
Anyways, back to the Thompson specific issues and the clear discrepancy between early run timing coq summer runs and later run time Thompson summer runs. This clearly points to a non pinneped source, hence the spotlight shining brightly, once again, on the unquantifiable amount of legal and illegal gillnetting on the Fraser. ( good luck with getting the FN nets out of the water )
So we come back full circle to the blah blah blah, we should do this or that, blah blah blah, oh what a shame about those poor steelhead, blah blah blah.
Sorry, it may be a new year but unfortunately it will be filled with the same old finger pointing and do nothing approach we have seen for the past decade or more.
Anyways, back to the Thompson specific issues and the clear discrepancy between early run timing coq summer runs and later run time Thompson summer runs. This clearly points to a non pinneped source, hence the spotlight shining brightly, once again, on the unquantifiable amount of legal and illegal gillnetting on the Fraser. ( good luck with getting the FN nets out of the water )
So we come back full circle to the blah blah blah, we should do this or that, blah blah blah, oh what a shame about those poor steelhead, blah blah blah.
Sorry, it may be a new year but unfortunately it will be filled with the same old finger pointing and do nothing approach we have seen for the past decade or more.
searun
Well-Known Member
Oh boy, I was actually hoping to hear some convincing science. So far your gill net hypothesis is all wet. If gill nets are the problem explain that in light of solving the coast-wide stock declines? Or is it that your gill net theory simply can't explain your belief system?
Not sure your point on run timing of Thompson steelhead vs Coquihalla steelhead proves any point...other than from a predation perspective Thompson fish co-migrate with a large population of chum and chinook which would attract predators placing them at greater risk in lower water conditions, and Coquihalla fish migrate during the freshet which makes them harder for predators to target. So what is the point you were making?
Not sure your point on run timing of Thompson steelhead vs Coquihalla steelhead proves any point...other than from a predation perspective Thompson fish co-migrate with a large population of chum and chinook which would attract predators placing them at greater risk in lower water conditions, and Coquihalla fish migrate during the freshet which makes them harder for predators to target. So what is the point you were making?
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
And while some are content to wring their hands in anguish while purporting "nothing will change", there are others quietly and diligently working in the background towards success in some of the very topics under discussion in this thread.
To date a good deal of effort has been extended towards pinniped harvesting, and in fact that has been initiated in several areas.
DFO has moved the PBPS IFMP up the ladder of priorities, and from that we can expect more targeted action soon.
Take the steps you can, try to make a difference and often you will find that although a struggle, positive results are quite often feasible.
Beats pissing and moaning over the situation while offering nada in the way of effort or support.
Reality,
Nog
Nog
Just for nostalgia's sake my partner and I drifted from Seaton Park to Service the other day. A drift that used to yield many double digit days combined with sighting numerous other floating craft and many shore anglers. Well we caught zero fish, had zero bites, had zero "it could have been a bite", saw zero other boats and saw zero shore anglers. The place was devoid of any kind of life. Rather depressing actually.
BTW Good luck with the seal hunting.
Re effort and support, I spent years volunteering time and effort collecting brood stock all over vancouver island and doing what was thought to be best practice at the time. I continue to send funds to the steelhead society and purchase steelhead licenses. I am not really sure what I can do to improve the steelhead situation.
I can't stop logging, I can't get reduced jet boat pressure on the last few steelhead on the stamp, I can't get farmers to stop taking too much water, I can't regulate fish farms, I am not a hunter so shooting seals at night is out of the question, if I could I would lure transient killer whales into the georgia straight but my whale calling skills suck, apparently gill nets are not a problem so I don't need to do anything about them, I don't have the machinery to go and patrol high seas driftnetting and I don't have the time or money to battle back room deals pulled off by DFO and MOE. So what is it exactly that I am supposed to do?
Just for nostalgia's sake my partner and I drifted from Seaton Park to Service the other day. A drift that used to yield many double digit days combined with sighting numerous other floating craft and many shore anglers. Well we caught zero fish, had zero bites, had zero "it could have been a bite", saw zero other boats and saw zero shore anglers. The place was devoid of any kind of life. Rather depressing actually.
BTW Good luck with the seal hunting.
Re effort and support, I spent years volunteering time and effort collecting brood stock all over vancouver island and doing what was thought to be best practice at the time. I continue to send funds to the steelhead society and purchase steelhead licenses. I am not really sure what I can do to improve the steelhead situation.
I can't stop logging, I can't get reduced jet boat pressure on the last few steelhead on the stamp, I can't get farmers to stop taking too much water, I can't regulate fish farms, I am not a hunter so shooting seals at night is out of the question, if I could I would lure transient killer whales into the georgia straight but my whale calling skills suck, apparently gill nets are not a problem so I don't need to do anything about them, I don't have the machinery to go and patrol high seas driftnetting and I don't have the time or money to battle back room deals pulled off by DFO and MOE. So what is it exactly that I am supposed to do?
OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
Thomas Sewid
PACIFIC BALANCE MARINE MANAGEMENT
18m ·New Year begins with huge support for pinniped harvest!
Pacific Balance Marine Management thanks Nootka Island Lodge for a generous donation of $2000.00 that is directed towards the Mowachaht/Muchalaht First Nation from the Nootka Island region of the west coast of Vancouver Island. This money will be used to help kick start their seal and sea lion harvest all for the protection of salmon in the local region and those passing by on their southward journey to spawn.
Other sport fishing resorts, guide operations and support business’s to sport fishing industry, y’all been asked to step up for salmon as well.
Pacific Balance Marine Management has been having ongoing discussions with all Bands in the region and now this donation will really help get things going! This is what it’s all about people, we all need to work together because as we know the personal in D.F.O. that are helping or can help fix the problem of overpopulation of pinnipeds are strangled by bureaucracy.
Remember, as Nootka Island Resort discussed with me, donators funds can and will be directed to helping a First Nation or F.N. Hunter in the region you want to see pinnipeds removed.
This donation should make all realize that our GO FUND ME CAMPIGN needs your help. Bullets, gas, diesel, blubber toxicity tests at $90.00 per, shipping of samples, industrial plastic bags/totes, huge treble hooks with lead and line all costs lots.
This May will be my fourth year volunteering with this campaign to protect our salmon by harvesting our seals and sea lions. Many have gotten lead poisoning in this time, but thousands more need to die all to protect our salmon. Time for us to get serious, otherwise this gambit is pointless and we just walk away and let the seals and sea lions eat our salmon, steel head, sturgeon and other fin fish to extinction.
So HAPPY NEW YEAR and let’s see many start the year off helping to see thousands of more BANGS! Donate now and help support the HARVEST OF THE HERDS ALL TO PROTECT SALMON!
Donations in Canada can go through Go Fund Me Campaign or contact tom.sewid@gmail.com in Nanaimo to meet up with donated bullets, Canadian Tire or Cabela’s gift cards for bullets.
Email me tom.sewid@gmail.comor call 604-724-7325 for mailing address in B.C. and my U.S. address for donations. American donators please contact me.
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IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
I would strongly suggest avoiding any interactions with Mr. Sewid.
He was fired from PBPS with cause, for a myriad of reasons.
The latest news is that monies intended to go towards the pinniped issue has been "mysteriously" disappearing.
Tom, a current US Resident, is off on his own tangent, and the organization he mentions exists only in his mind.
There has been no effort whatsoever to establish that as a bona fide entity.
Period.
You have been warned...
Nog
He was fired from PBPS with cause, for a myriad of reasons.
The latest news is that monies intended to go towards the pinniped issue has been "mysteriously" disappearing.
Tom, a current US Resident, is off on his own tangent, and the organization he mentions exists only in his mind.
There has been no effort whatsoever to establish that as a bona fide entity.
Period.
You have been warned...
Nog
Agreed, there needs to be a concerted effort to put an end to black market salmon poaching on the Fraser which is rampant. In addition, to simply put the entire debacle on pinnipeds is simply wrong. It would seem to me that certain groups have cherry picked data from the Bison presentation to serve their own agenda on the backs of IFS. Could these be the same people who were using fish culture ( code name for hatchery) as a solution to the declining IFS runs? A move towards sustainable fishing methods would certainly help get more adult IFS on to the spawning beds and still allow for FN fisheries to harvest roe. Maybe they could even get MSC for those fisheries. A win for IFS, and other at risk runs and creating a long term employment for FN.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
yikes to think Nootka Island Lodge did no background check before dropping a 2k donation ouch!
Agree with this Teal. This could work if there were more chum, through both habitat restoration and increased hatchery production in tributary streams. FN should be taking the lead on that initiative and developing selective fishing methods for terminal fisheries, away from the Fraser.
50 REPORTED IFS adults killed in nets.
Out of a run of 200. What is the actual number that are killed?
FN could literally go into Chehalis/Vedder hatchery and take all the roe they want so they wouldn't have to net. Absolutely bump the Stave full of chum so that a terminal fishery can take place within the Stave for the roe.
Zero impact on wild stocks there.
All the excess hatchery coho for their FSC.
Literally ZERO need for the blatant non selective slaughter of wild and endangered stocks on the Fraser by commercial and FN nets.
So many options that could be pursued if the parties were willing to think outside the box and actually protect resources!
Would also be nice if they could take care of any seals within the Fraser and the tributaries as well.
What have the returns been like for Chinook on the east coast rivers of the island been the last couple years where the pinniped predation has been documented? Think WMY posted a graph on that.
Out of a run of 200. What is the actual number that are killed?
FN could literally go into Chehalis/Vedder hatchery and take all the roe they want so they wouldn't have to net. Absolutely bump the Stave full of chum so that a terminal fishery can take place within the Stave for the roe.
Zero impact on wild stocks there.
All the excess hatchery coho for their FSC.
Literally ZERO need for the blatant non selective slaughter of wild and endangered stocks on the Fraser by commercial and FN nets.
So many options that could be pursued if the parties were willing to think outside the box and actually protect resources!
Would also be nice if they could take care of any seals within the Fraser and the tributaries as well.
What have the returns been like for Chinook on the east coast rivers of the island been the last couple years where the pinniped predation has been documented? Think WMY posted a graph on that.
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Spot on. Partnerships and collaboration with sports fishers and FN is the only way this is going to work.
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