Here we go again, by Bob Hooton .

[Whitebuck]

Agent, just a heads up the seals in the Fraser have no problem finding salmon and steelhead in the dirtiest of river conditions. However I am confident that you know that and have seen it first hand....

On a side note the seals/sea lions in the lower Fraser/Skeena absolutely hammer on the oolies during the spring. Find it a little hard to believe they would be targeting smolts rather than the much abundant bigger oil rich oolies and salmon steelhead adults.


Again...just what I have seen personally.

 

[Dave]

Don't ask me that question, Dave - ask the seals.

Instead of reading someone's blog w unsupported assertions - I would recommend going back to the published science available.

And I suggest you use some common sense as we are we are talking Thompson steelhead.
Yes, seals and sea lions target outgoing smolts, but only when numbers allow it, like during Federal hatchery juvenile releases. A lot easier to catch a few of millions, than the smolts of a few hundred. If indeed seals were relying on these juveniles they would have starved long ago.

 

[wildmanyeah]

First Nations and ENGO's have been moving mountains with the Liberal Governments assistance.

As long as the Liberals remain in power a seal harvest will remain a fantasy of some obscure forum posters in a forgotten part of the internet.

 

[agentaqua]

dave - they eat all species of juvenile smolts from all areas/stocks @ the mouths of rivers - as well as trout - as well as any other fish they can find in the river, harbour, estuary, etc. They've been doing that for thousands of years - so yeas, obviously they can and do rely on this seasonal and staged food source. But recently - their numbers have dramatically increased with the expected impacts on the fish stocks.

Maybe you have some data/science to back-up your assertion that: "If indeed seals were relying on these juveniles they would have starved long ago." - because I simply don't believe that assertion at all. The seals are not dead. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And thanks, Whitebuck for sharing your observations on sea lions, as well. I agree. I have seen both harbour seals and sea lions take eulachons. Sea lions are excellent, and powerful swimmers. They can easily swim down to the deep holes through the top river current and nail inmigrating Eulachons while they are holding/staging into the river. Harbour seals - on the other hand - are much weaker swimmers and can only seem to get Eulachons by either drift swimming down onto Eulachons in the shallows - or by picking-off the spawned-out Eulachons that are either near death or already dead on the bottom.

Another thing I'd like to add - is that seals are not stupid. They rapidly learn and are taught by other seals how/when to find food - including both adult and juvie salmon. The timing and hydrographic/oceanographic variables tend to cluster aggregations of salmon. Current, habitat, WQ parameters, and physiological variables are always in play. That tends to cluster fish.

 

[wildmanyeah]

their numbers have dramatically increased with the expected impacts on the fish stocks.

couldn't we say the same thing about Killer Wales in the last 100 years? How many people on here would support a Northren resident Killer Whale cull. There is ample evidence show them being the top harvester for chinook.

or do some people on here like killer whales more then they like seals so lets kill one and not the other.

 

[Dave]

dave - they eat all species of juvenile smolts from all species - as well as trout - as well as any other fish they can find in the river, harbour, estuary, etc. They've been doing that for thousands of years - so yeas, obviously they can. But recently - their numbers have dramatically increased with the expected impacts on the fish stocks.

Maybe you have some data/science to back-up your assertion that: "If indeed seals were relying on these juveniles they would have starved long ago." - because I simply don't believe that assertion at all.

And thanks, Whitebuck for sharing your observations on sea lions, as well. I agree. I have seen both harbour seals and sea lions take eulachons. Sea lions are excellent, and powerful swimmers. They can easily swim down to the deep holes through the top river current and nail inmigrating Eulachons while they are holding/staging into the river. Harbour seals - on the other hand - are much weaker swimmers and can only seem to get Eulachons by either drift swimming down onto Eulachons in the shallows - or by picking-off the spawned-out Eulachons that are either near death or already dead on the bottom.

Another thing I'd like to add - is that seals are not stupid. They rapidly learn and are taught by other seals how/when to find food - including both adult and juvie salmon. The timing and hydrographic/oceanographic variables tend to cluster aggregations of salmon. Current, habitat, WQ parameters, and physiological variables are always in play. That tends to cluster fish.

Like you and whitebuck I have also seen both seals and sea lions feeding on eulachons in the Fraser and Nass rivers but, and this is the part you have a hard time comprehending ... there were literally millions to feed on.

There are so few wild upper Fraser chinook and interior steelhead smolts (a few thousand at best) it is logical, though perhaps not scientific, to assume the pinnipeds would starve if they targeted these juveniles.

 

[Whitebuck]

As for seals being weak swimmers have seen them above Hells gate as well as a pair in the Thompson a few years back.

 

[agentaqua]

couldn't we say the same thing about Killer Wales in the last 100 years? How many people on here would support a Northren resident Killer Whale cull. There is ample evidence show them being the top harvester for chinook.

or do some people on here like killer whales more then they like seals so lets kill one and not the other.

Interesting point, WMY.

Yes - 4 different types in BC: 2 types residents (NRKW & SRKW Chinook eaters), transients (marine mammal eaters) & offshore (mostly eat sharks).

Most of the attention on orcas from the NGOs and government have focused on the SRKW - meanwhile the NRKW and the transients have been doing quite well. The SRKW have never been numerous, and likely never will be. Their home range has been invaded from the North by the expanding NRKW pods. There is an increasing predation on Northern Chinook stocks by the NRKW.

It appears that the reduction in body size for Chinook is largely due to the residents preferentially preying on the largest fish.

Good luck promoting a cull on the NRKW

 

[agentaqua]

As for seals being weak swimmers have seen them above Hells gate as well as a pair in the Thompson a few years back.

Harbour seals are relatively weak swimmers as compared to sea lions (and not humans) was what observations I shared, Whitebuck. So, they change their behaviour to accommodate their needs. I would assume that they travel upstream in any canyon close either to the sides and/or the bottom where the current is less.

And Dave - thanks for the admission. I have seen seals go after small amounts of Eulachons. In one creek I saw 20-30 Harbour seals after 200-300 Eulachon. The Eulachon never stood a chance. Seals can work together to improve their own odds, if they want to - esp. if they are both hungry and determined - which they are.

And if they only manage to get ~50% of the less numerous Fraser chinook and interior steelhead smolts (remember they preferentially prey on the larger smolts) - wouldn't that be called depensatory mortality?

The dynamics of fish populations at low abundance and prospects for rebuilding and recovery

Abstract. Previous meta-analysis of spawner–recruit relationships suggested that depensatory behaviour is uncommon, and stocks pushed to low abundance are

academic.oup.com

The Variability among Populations of Coho Salmon in the Maximum Reproductive Rate and Depensation on JSTOR

Estimating parameters for population-dynamics models is a critical component in assessing extinction probabilities of populations. For many individual populatio...

www.jstor.org

 

[Whitebuck]

So seals are weak swimmers and have trouble feeding on oolichans but not smolts? Sorry just trying to make some sense of your post.

 

[agentaqua]

Thanks for the clarification of your question, Whitebuck.

No - I wasn't trying to say they didn't get smolts - just that their feeding behaviour & areas that they feed are different.

In addition, Harbour seals often go farther upstream and stay in rivers longer than sea lions - as you pointed-out. Sea lions are more interested in bang-for-the-buck, since I am assuming their size and metabolism requires more calories than the Harbour seals.

So, sea lions tend to spend effort on either large fish (adult chum and chinook), or large aggradations of smaller fish. Harbour seals are more localized and more like the rona vacuum cleaners that stay in one room until the carpet is clean.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Good luck promoting a cull on the NRKW

excatly you think ENGO’s can make money off off fish farms and a herring harvest. I Cant wait and see what they can make off a seal cull.

the argument is simple, humans have a choice on what they eat, seals do not.

I see that statement being brought up again and again on social media when even a whisper of a cull is talked about.

as much as I would support a harvest I’m not sure is something our liberal managers and their base would ever consider.

Sure there is always the First Nation angle but I’m not seing it show up on many of their agendas as an action item.

 

[agentaqua]

Not sure what your statement: "excatly you think ENGO’s can make money off off fish farms and a herring harvest" means, WMY. Maybe you could explain that? I agree w the rest of your post, but eventually I think there will be a limited cull - whether or not the ENGOs like it or not.

 

[Dave]

And Dave - thanks for the admission. I have seen seals go after small amounts of Eulachons. In one creek I saw 20-30 Harbour seals after 200-300 Eulachon. The Eulachon never stood a chance. Seals can work together to improve their own odds, if they want to - esp. if they are both hungry and determined - which they are.

And if they only manage to get ~50% of the less numerous Fraser chinook and interior steelhead smolts (remember they preferentially prey on the larger smolts) - wouldn't that be called depensatory mortality?

What admission? I am simply stating there are not enough Thompson or Chilcotin steelhead, or upper Fraser chinooks juveniles, to make it profitable for pinnipeds to target them. As to size of these smolts making them a high calorie mouthful, I have never seen a Thompson steelhead smolt but have electroshocked hundreds of upper Fraser chinook near smolts ( just before or during downstream migration) and they are roughly the size of eulachons. No big lunch there.

 

[agentaqua]

What admission? I am simply stating there are not enough Thompson or Chilcotin steelhead, or upper Fraser chinooks juveniles, to make it profitable for pinnipeds to target them. As to size of these smolts making them a high calorie mouthful, I have never seen a Thompson steelhead smolt but have electroshocked hundreds of upper Fraser chinook near smolts ( just before or during downstream migration) and they are roughly the size of eulachons. No big lunch there.

Get enough of them and they are indeed a big lunch, Dave. That's kinda the point and what the data suggests.

 

[Dave]

Get enough of them and they are indeed a big lunch, Dave. That's kinda the point and what the data suggests.

Ok, you obviously think there enough of these described fish to make it worth their while; I don't so again we will agree to disagree.

 

[wildmanyeah]

What is the timing for the out migration of IFS?

 

[Dave]

What is the timing for the out migration of IFS?

Like all wild populations of salmonids it would be over several weeks, even months. Most fry and smolt migrations take place during freshet.

 

[wildmanyeah]

So we are talking about millions of smolts with some tiny amount being IFS.
I guess the question is what would the odds be of a seal encounter.

 

[onefish]

Not sure what your statement: "excatly you think ENGO’s can make money off off fish farms and a herring harvest" means, WMY. Maybe you could explain that? I agree w the rest of your post, but eventually I think there will be a limited cull - whether or not the ENGOs like it or not.

Ok, now we,( some people ) are blaming seals for the demise of Thompson steelhead. So which is it then, reduce the population of seals or watch genetically unique Thompson and Chilcotin steelhead go extinct. Are we going to intervene and try and save some slimy fish or put a bullet between the eyes of those cute cuddly intelligent seals that are just trying to get a meal.
If you think there will be a cull of any significance then I would like some of what you have been smoking.