Gun Control in US and Canada
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Saxe Point
Well-Known Member
While catchy and superficially clever, these types of statements are just so wrong when they are scrutinized, and they send out an odious message that infects our culture with the exact opposite of what we need.
Equality is a concept borne of enlightened and rational thought which recognizes that humans share certain human rights equally. Moreover, equality of opportunity and an equal sharing of the duties and responsibilities of citizenship are hallmarks of an enlightened society where the intrinsic worth of humans is respected.
At bottom, this catchphrase means nothing more than might makes right in a culture where violence is accepted or encouraged. Implicit in the stupid phrase is that some men are physically bigger or tougher than others, and will seek to take advantage of that fact in dealing with others in a violent or intimidating way. In and of itself, that is wrong. But getting a gun somehow levels the playing field of violence and "equalizes" things? This juvenile "one upmanship" simply encourages, indeed glorifies, violence.
Even if you tossed it out as a joke (I note the smiley), I don't expect anyone finds it terribly funny, especially at this difficult time and in the course of discussing a serious problem. If you tossed it out a statement of principle, that's a far bigger problem, as I have tried to point out.
i can only speak for myself and some very close relatives. i started target shooting with my dad at about age 8, i am 71. firearms of all types have passed through my hands over time. i also was an avid hunter of deer and elk along with a fanatical obsession with waterfowl hunting. (building barnagat bay sneak boxes, hand done decoys.......) i also shot competative skeet for decades, i have the ears to prove that. growing up in inner city Chicago, there was never much thought given to self defense.
virtually all of my adult friends hunt. some of them have impressive collections in lots of calibers to support their addiction. i can't think of one of them who ownes firearms for self defensive purposes.
absolutely, there are paranoid folks in all corners of this country, probably up your way as well, but i don't see that as a major thrust of ownership. speaking with LEOs is going to provide a very limited and slanted viewpoint as they deal with crazies all day long. but the question then becomes, does that represent the general population? i think not and it never has.
what has happened is the polarization of the population. the NRA, once they took on the role of industry lobbyist, has done gun owners a major disservice. their adamant approach, in spite of facts and plain common sense, turned me off decades ago. originally they were focused on gun safety and firearms training. my children all took part in those courses before they were 10 years old. but times changed and big bucks were to be made by backing the firearms industry. like any lobby, they control lots of money and have bought more pols then you can count. nothing new here save they have a very loud voice.
i am not much worried about the security aspect of ownership. having read the detail regarding the pack of trouble that would fall on my head if i actually shot someone, i am not inclined to pull the trigger. 'stand your ground' laws in several states have led to the apparent killing of young, unarmed, kids by over hyped adults. all of this does great harm to society in general and the psyche of the nation.
starting someplace is imperative but i am not confident it will happen despite 20 5-7 year olds who lie stone cold dead.
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Gunsmith
Well-Known Member
what has happened is the polarization of the population. the NRA, once they took on the role of industry lobbyist, has done gun owners a major disservice. their adamant approach, in spite of facts and plain common sense, turned me off decades ago. originally they were focused on gun safety and firearms training. my children all took part in those courses before they were 10 years old. but times changed and big bucks were to be made by backing the firearms industry. like any lobby, they control lots of money and have bought more pols then you can count. nothing new here save they have a very loud voice.
i am not much worried about the security aspect of ownership. having read the detail regarding the pack of trouble that would fall on my head if i actually shot someone, i am not inclined to pull the trigger. 'stand your ground' laws in several states have led to the apparent killing of young, unarmed, kids by over hyped adults. all of this does great harm to society in general and the psyche of the nation.
starting someplace is imperative but i am not confident it will happen despite 20 5-7 year olds who lie stone cold dead.
I agree with this statement, the NRA is the biggest stick in the mud, they are not about safe use of firearms or saftey training, they are just money!
i am not much worried about the security aspect of ownership. having read the detail regarding the pack of trouble that would fall on my head if i actually shot someone, i am not inclined to pull the trigger. 'stand your ground' laws in several states have led to the apparent killing of young, unarmed, kids by over hyped adults. all of this does great harm to society in general and the psyche of the nation.
starting someplace is imperative but i am not confident it will happen despite 20 5-7 year olds who lie stone cold dead.
I agree with this statement, the NRA is the biggest stick in the mud, they are not about safe use of firearms or saftey training, they are just money!
Last fridays tragedy is probably the worst/saddest event I have ever heard of in my life. I went home and gave my two kids a big hug each.
Many good points here. I am an avid hunter and gun owner. I am all for change especially to help save the lives of innocent children.
This sad event played right into the hands of the anti gun world and right away you hear people suggesting a ban on guns. For one this is not realistic it is a dream. Nobody will ever be able to clean the US or Canada of guns. So instead of the anti gun crowd preaching their own beliefs & BS.
-Maybe they should be talking about banning combat firearms and hand guns (I don't like it but I can live with it)?
-Maybe they should be talking about having armed guard's at the schools?
Coming up with something constructive rather than the same old anti gun argument that we are all sick of hearing. Come up with something realistic to try and prevent events like this.
Just my two bits to the anti gun crowd.
Many good points here. I am an avid hunter and gun owner. I am all for change especially to help save the lives of innocent children.
This sad event played right into the hands of the anti gun world and right away you hear people suggesting a ban on guns. For one this is not realistic it is a dream. Nobody will ever be able to clean the US or Canada of guns. So instead of the anti gun crowd preaching their own beliefs & BS.
-Maybe they should be talking about banning combat firearms and hand guns (I don't like it but I can live with it)?
-Maybe they should be talking about having armed guard's at the schools?
Coming up with something constructive rather than the same old anti gun argument that we are all sick of hearing. Come up with something realistic to try and prevent events like this.
Just my two bits to the anti gun crowd.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately nut balls exist in this world.
Although a gun in their hands is dangerous, it could just as easily
be explosives, fire, or poison that cause the damage.
The people that commit this type of crime have severe mental issues.
Eliminating weapons will not stop them.
Diagnosing and treating them before they can cause harm is fundamental
to making sure it doesn't reoccur.
Although a gun in their hands is dangerous, it could just as easily
be explosives, fire, or poison that cause the damage.
The people that commit this type of crime have severe mental issues.
Eliminating weapons will not stop them.
Diagnosing and treating them before they can cause harm is fundamental
to making sure it doesn't reoccur.
Kildonan
Well-Known Member
My point was not to be funny, nor do I believe that statement. Just posted it as it's a quote I've heard in the past that I believe sums up the mentality of some folks south of the border is all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Carry on.
I just read a very interesting article about the tribulations of raising a mentally ill child. check it out:
http://gawker.com/5968818?utm_campa..._source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
pretty heavy stuff. No one can really understand what its like living with a mentally ill person unless they have been in that situation.
As other posters have pointed out, most of the guns used in these senseless killings were obtained legally.
The number of deaths was higher in some cases because guns were used, but gun laws did not prevent or facilitate these people obtaining guns.
Mental health is the real challenge that faces us today, not guns or video games, music or T.V.
I think that "Social health" is something that has been almost completely missing from our society for the last several decades, no sense of community or willingness to help someone else. The "Me" generation(s). I see this trend continuing as overpopulation encourages us to become more individual at the expense of our commonality. That is a separate discussion but perhaps it bears on the idea that we should be considering things like " _____ control " as means of being socially and environmentally responsible and moving forward with the way things "ought to be" (Applied normative sociology? social planning?) But then of course we would have to agree on "the way things ought to be" and that gets into such fun topics as religion, government, politics, law and other doctrines.
This forum and others like it are great for expressing views and finding people to agree with, and argue against. At least our discussion is something positive and community-strengthening to come from all this senseless tragedy
http://gawker.com/5968818?utm_campa..._source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
pretty heavy stuff. No one can really understand what its like living with a mentally ill person unless they have been in that situation.
As other posters have pointed out, most of the guns used in these senseless killings were obtained legally.
The number of deaths was higher in some cases because guns were used, but gun laws did not prevent or facilitate these people obtaining guns.
Mental health is the real challenge that faces us today, not guns or video games, music or T.V.
I think that "Social health" is something that has been almost completely missing from our society for the last several decades, no sense of community or willingness to help someone else. The "Me" generation(s). I see this trend continuing as overpopulation encourages us to become more individual at the expense of our commonality. That is a separate discussion but perhaps it bears on the idea that we should be considering things like " _____ control " as means of being socially and environmentally responsible and moving forward with the way things "ought to be" (Applied normative sociology? social planning?) But then of course we would have to agree on "the way things ought to be" and that gets into such fun topics as religion, government, politics, law and other doctrines.
This forum and others like it are great for expressing views and finding people to agree with, and argue against. At least our discussion is something positive and community-strengthening to come from all this senseless tragedy
I think the blame should be put on the health care in the US ... if the people with mental health issues , had some coverage and didnt have to pay extreme $$$$...maybe. none of this would be happening ... because nobody in their right mind would go out and do this to a bunch of innocent children ... just my 2 cents
We both agree on that. I find it interesting that many in the U.S. who are most opposed to gun control/regulation are the same people who don't want the government to do anything about healthcare (and who are often adamant that "Obama-care" is a terrible thing, even if they don't really understand what it does). So bottom line, I'm not optimistic that there will be overwhelming support in the U.S. for improved mental healthcare either.
Bows Up
Well-Known Member
That is the thrust of my thought. Can Obama corner that faction who oppose both and put it in nice, tight sound bite to squeeze them ?
"You guys have to pick one or risk being perceived as the stumbling block to doing something about these tragedies".
Either way there may some change.
"You guys have to pick one or risk being perceived as the stumbling block to doing something about these tragedies".
Either way there may some change.
Gunsmith
Well-Known Member
That guy hit the nail on the head. Through the internet and games and movies, we have been enabling everybody, man woman and child to do this. I do not have tv at home or cable but around the same time this happened I saw a young man watching this zombies movie where they were just slaughtering everything in site. It seemed so easy to do and there was no display of emotion and eveywhere you look you see stuff on zombie appocalypse. What do you think that anybody with a mental issue of some kind starts hallucinating about this is going to do? They have already been directed that way by what they have already seen.
Gunsmith
Well-Known Member
Yes the issue will always remain, how many were killed when Timothy McVeigh did his thing with fertilizer and fuel? Yet we can still rent cube vans and buy fertilizer and fuel. The media and such are just as big a problem by making their names famous.
I just wish that we could stop this, arguing about it only divides people.
I just wish that we could stop this, arguing about it only divides people.
Rum Buddies
Well-Known Member
Ya and rock and roll is devils music that leads to sex and drug abuse. Just to be safe lets get rid of all art except Disney films, they're ok.
This I agree with, there should be an instant media ban on all names involved, no pictures or names of the attackers at all.
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OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
NRA got the message.
