Fishing in the Fog.
- Thread starter Willyjim
- Start date
spring fever
Well-Known Member
Reading radar is a bit of an art, It should not just be used when you wake up in an OMG fashion and there is thick fog and you have to have it. Put it on when you do a transit, note how things appear in conjunction with your plotter, move the boat 15 degrees or so either side of centre and watch the screen change. Play with your ranges and watch as you pass or see other boats. Two good targets in close proximity should make you suspect a tow. Familiarity is what will help you -learning in thick fog is not the time-believe me-I did it for a living!
And I hope you live to collect it.
small sport boats without radar reflectors, appear as pencil dots on your radar screen. you have to pay attention to the screen to actually pick them out at times. so radar is no panacea. the real problem is folks running at planning speeds in the fog as if that will help them find a home port. that is the real danger in fishing in the fog. and keep in mind, we experience, for the most part, advection fog. that means conditions for the formation of fog exist someplace and the winds, no matter how light, have pushed that fog into our area. so can you predict fog? to some degree by check dew point but don't count on it. how many times have you looked W and seen that fog bank headed your way? advection fog is what we get around here and it is not disbursed by the wind only move from one location to another.
as a result of my experiences, almost collisions from crazy operators, if it is foggy, I stay on the beach. if I get caught in the fog, I start a slow troll back home listening for the crazies running right at me. but you really can't tell as the sound in fog comes at you 360 degrees, another interesting factor in fog fishing.
as a result of my experiences, almost collisions from crazy operators, if it is foggy, I stay on the beach. if I get caught in the fog, I start a slow troll back home listening for the crazies running right at me. but you really can't tell as the sound in fog comes at you 360 degrees, another interesting factor in fog fishing.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
Good advice, now matter how much electronics you have running at speed in the fog is dangerous.
deadheads and submerged logs won't be seen until it's too late.
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
You are completely right dabell... in terms of the law, you've got it spot on.
The problem however is not the law, it is your insurance company. Let's say you hit a rock and sink your boat. The insurance company is going to say you were not in compliance with the law because you didn't have charts on board. Then you will say "But I have sufficient knowledge of the local area!" And then the insurance agent is going to say "If you did, you would not have hit that rock." Case closed.
The requirements (even without local knowledge) can be met with electronic charts and a backup set of electronic charts.
Sharphooks
Well-Known Member
It is indeed nuts to watch guys flying through thick fog without radar thinking their GPS will get them there and back. I saw that behavior in Port Hardy in August and found it stunning, especially with the number of cruise ships going by
I heard these guys time their movements based on cruise ship schedules-- still nuts in my opinion, and what about the commie boats and other traffic that isn't passing through shipping lanes based on a "schedule"???
I value my radar so much I'd take it to bed with me if my girlfriend would let it in the bed. Not only a fantastic tool for collision avoidance but it is easily on par with a good GPS chart plotter for navigation purposes.
Another thing: I keep hearing guys say that small boats either don't show up on a screen without having radar reflectors and/or, just show up as dots like a pencil point.
Not necessarily-- when I read that I assume (for right or for wrong) that the guy making that comment either doesn't know how to properly tune his radar or.....has not updated his equipment to the newer technology that's available.
I sprung for 4Kw Furuno UHD radar this past summer-- yep, looks pretty goofy on a 21 foot boat but the target detection knocked my socks off. I worked my way up, first from a Furuno 6123 (black and white analogue unit) to a DRS2D (19" dome-- 24 n.m.--- ultra high definition) And then finally, to a DRS4D (24" dome---4kW 48 n.m.)
I remember quibbling over the jump from 2kW to 4 kW-- would it be worth the effort? I'd just installed the 2kW and it worked just fine.
But the real question is--- how much power are you throwing at your target? That defines target definition and that was the critical difference between the two units
My favorite moment with the DRS4D was coming around Cranston Point in Rivers Inlet in a PEA SOUP fog on my way to Shearwater last summer (it had been pea soup all the way across QC Strait)
As soon as I got into River Inlet, it looked like someone had splashed the screen of my Navnet with red paint. These weren't pencil points-- they were thick clearly painted "targets", cleanly separated, quite obvious. There were 21 of them-- I throttled way back (as in from 1,500 RPM down to 500 RPM) and threaded my way through the Rivers Inlet mosquito fleet
So the upshot is, stay abreast of the new technology--- Ultra High Definition (Furuno) and Broadband ( Navico---Simrad/Lowrance) have been around for several years now.
What does that mean?
It means it's pretty easy to get pre-owned units if you keep your eyes peeled. I got my DRS4D for approx. 50 percent of retail--- some yacht guy peeled it off his boat because he wanted the Furuno array antennae. I was standing there with a catcher's mitt waiting for the radome he had outgrown, and the wait was well worth it!!!
I heard these guys time their movements based on cruise ship schedules-- still nuts in my opinion, and what about the commie boats and other traffic that isn't passing through shipping lanes based on a "schedule"???
I value my radar so much I'd take it to bed with me if my girlfriend would let it in the bed. Not only a fantastic tool for collision avoidance but it is easily on par with a good GPS chart plotter for navigation purposes.
Another thing: I keep hearing guys say that small boats either don't show up on a screen without having radar reflectors and/or, just show up as dots like a pencil point.
Not necessarily-- when I read that I assume (for right or for wrong) that the guy making that comment either doesn't know how to properly tune his radar or.....has not updated his equipment to the newer technology that's available.
I sprung for 4Kw Furuno UHD radar this past summer-- yep, looks pretty goofy on a 21 foot boat but the target detection knocked my socks off. I worked my way up, first from a Furuno 6123 (black and white analogue unit) to a DRS2D (19" dome-- 24 n.m.--- ultra high definition) And then finally, to a DRS4D (24" dome---4kW 48 n.m.)
I remember quibbling over the jump from 2kW to 4 kW-- would it be worth the effort? I'd just installed the 2kW and it worked just fine.
But the real question is--- how much power are you throwing at your target? That defines target definition and that was the critical difference between the two units
My favorite moment with the DRS4D was coming around Cranston Point in Rivers Inlet in a PEA SOUP fog on my way to Shearwater last summer (it had been pea soup all the way across QC Strait)
As soon as I got into River Inlet, it looked like someone had splashed the screen of my Navnet with red paint. These weren't pencil points-- they were thick clearly painted "targets", cleanly separated, quite obvious. There were 21 of them-- I throttled way back (as in from 1,500 RPM down to 500 RPM) and threaded my way through the Rivers Inlet mosquito fleet
So the upshot is, stay abreast of the new technology--- Ultra High Definition (Furuno) and Broadband ( Navico---Simrad/Lowrance) have been around for several years now.
What does that mean?
It means it's pretty easy to get pre-owned units if you keep your eyes peeled. I got my DRS4D for approx. 50 percent of retail--- some yacht guy peeled it off his boat because he wanted the Furuno array antennae. I was standing there with a catcher's mitt waiting for the radome he had outgrown, and the wait was well worth it!!!
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dougthefisher
Member
ahh Port Hardy, as we are 200 k outside of Canada the rules do not apply here. it seems a lot of common sense gets lost between Campbell River and here.
pescador
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the comments either about boats not showing up on peoples radar. I use Garmin GMR18 HD on my 740S GPS overlay and see every single target clearly. I test continully in clear weather to get a sense for distance/size the system will display. Its important. I guess there could be the odd exception where something can "hide", but, I always watch the small glass boats on clear days with interest and they always seem to show up clearly. Maybe I've got it tuned right or I'm just lucky. I will tell you one thing, fishing Sooke last August in the dense fog several times made me realize what a good investment it is. The GPS overlay feature makes it very simple to use.
what range do you have your radar set for??? that becomes the operational question between pencil dots and well defined targets of small sport boats. operating in the strait where ship traffic is always a possibility, a range of 6nm is more or less necessary. that said, I can clearly pick out those pencil dots and I can also point out vessels that have reflectors, they turn into big blobs on my screen.
now if you shorten the range lets say to 1-2nm, it changes the display considerably but in the strait that is Russian roulette and you are playing with the rules of tonnage.
a 4Kw unit will work to your advantage IF you can mount the antenna way up high like on a sail boat mast. if not you are paying for capability you will never be able to use. and yes, I can pick out vessels within a 1/4 mile range of the shore so its not 2 vs 4Kw at all but more likely the range you have your unit set for.
sure the HD radar would be great but everything is still working correctly so dropping 8-10k to upgrade everything onboard is not going to happen anytime soon. I use a reflector, I just wish everyone else would while they slow down to a speed which would allow them to avoid me and everyone else out there.
and just because you have radar, don't expect that to be a panacea for good judgment and common sense.
Sharphooks
Well-Known Member
QUOTE
a 4Kw unit will work to your advantage IF you can mount the antenna way up high like on a sail boat mast. if not you are paying for capability you will never be able to use. and yes, I can pick out vessels within a 1/4 mile range of the shore so its not 2 vs 4Kw at all but more likely the range you have your unit set for.
UNQUOTE
That hasn't been my experience. I mounted the 4 kW dome on the same stainless wedge where my 2 kW sat: perhaps 3 meters above the water on my wheelhouse--- the difference was NIGHT AND DAY as far as target detection and most importantly, target SEPARATION.
It's like the difference between firing 600 W with your transducer compared to 1 kW ---way better target painting with the 1,000 W unit.
600W picture of BAIT:
1kW picture of BAIT:
Yes, the "8 - 10K" upgrade you mentioned is possible if one were to purchase a full electronics suite at full retail. I picked up that Furuno DRS4D for $ 1,000 --- I had to purchase a separate power unit for an additional $ 400 so I was in to the upgrade for $ 1,400--- I did the wiring and the install myself.
My comment about buying used was specifically to point out you don't necessarily have to pay full retail to get the more modern equipment that throws more power at target.
But your points are well taken
a 4Kw unit will work to your advantage IF you can mount the antenna way up high like on a sail boat mast. if not you are paying for capability you will never be able to use. and yes, I can pick out vessels within a 1/4 mile range of the shore so its not 2 vs 4Kw at all but more likely the range you have your unit set for.
UNQUOTE
That hasn't been my experience. I mounted the 4 kW dome on the same stainless wedge where my 2 kW sat: perhaps 3 meters above the water on my wheelhouse--- the difference was NIGHT AND DAY as far as target detection and most importantly, target SEPARATION.
It's like the difference between firing 600 W with your transducer compared to 1 kW ---way better target painting with the 1,000 W unit.
600W picture of BAIT:
1kW picture of BAIT:
Yes, the "8 - 10K" upgrade you mentioned is possible if one were to purchase a full electronics suite at full retail. I picked up that Furuno DRS4D for $ 1,000 --- I had to purchase a separate power unit for an additional $ 400 so I was in to the upgrade for $ 1,400--- I did the wiring and the install myself.
My comment about buying used was specifically to point out you don't necessarily have to pay full retail to get the more modern equipment that throws more power at target.
But your points are well taken
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With the modern HD/digital radars. you can get very good resolution at very low powers. One's ability to see the targets does depend on the range and the size of the display. On an 8" display I typically run at a range of about 2 miles while in heavy fishing traffic, sometimes even as low as 1 mile. A boat going 20mph will cover that 2 miles in about 6 minutes so I have to be very attentive to the screen but I can easily see even canoes and most kayaks with my Lowrance HD radar. However, the radar isn't much good for ranges beyond about 8 miles except for the very largest vessels. When in the straits, my biggest concerns are shipping traffic, cruise liners and sport boats running like bats out of hell. The shipping traffic and cruise liners are all broadcasting AIS and with an AIS equipped radio, I display their positions on the chart plotter. I have a chart plotter zoomed out for that purpose. If I see a vessel on the AIS of potential concern, I mouse over it and it tells me it's direction, distance, speed over ground and destination. You can get the same info (delayed by a minute or two) on your smart phone if you have the Marine Traffic App or go to Marinetraffic.com. For the most part, that keeps you informed of where the big guys are at. After that, the radar is essential to see the other fisherman and to keep yourself prepared to avoid the idiot going 20kts (or more) in the fog.
finaddict
Well-Known Member
My old Furuno radar model 1622 with a separate screen may not be the latest, but I am happy with it. A separate dedicated screen for radar only certainly helps and I normally keep it at 4 nm which is plently of time for me to avoid any other vessels on the WCVI(I am not in the JDF). Even at 4 nm, I seem to be able to pick up almost all the boats. I find that from Ukie the vast majority of boats under 20 feet that are headed out to the banks are aluminum, so I seem to be able to pick them up. It is not fool proof, but under all circumstances you are playing odds and for that area the odds are in my favour. I also don't run at light speed out to the banks no matter what the seas conditions are like. I will be upgrading to a Lowrance AIS VHF this winter (Christmas present?) which is the next piece of the technology puzzle for me. Great thread gents. Lots of good info here.
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I like this. I never run fast in the Sooke fog, and tap my horn briefly from time to time. The dew point temperature is interesting too.
Peahead
Well-Known Member
I could have quoted a several others here above but this is one of the several posts that have made some sense. Its all relative when it comes to experience levels I suppose so I'd have to say I do not have as many hours of fog experience as many on here but I have had experience of over 40 plus years navigating the inside mainly but also the outside waters in several different boats with and without Loran, GPS and Radar. Back " in the day" always with at least a compass and charts ....
in the days no one else had anything else lol, except for commercial craft out there. I have operated boats with and without radar and from my experience I'd agree with Reelfast and some others that the biggest problem I'd say is people going 'reelfast' lol. SPEED and Speed ....did I say speed? ... too fast for safe travel given the conditions . Slow down and navigate slowly keeping watch and use your horn every minute. If everyone did that then I know the waters would be much safer. Listen for commercial traffic and if you have radar obviously watch for traffic. Radar certainly helps especially if you are experienced with your radar but you are fooling yourself if you think for a second thats all it takes. A perfect example of radar issues comes from this thread ....guys that can't see boats and others that can. Bingo. And again what speed are you travelling now that you purchased radar ?
Thinking that radar is the answer for fog shows me you are inexperienced and are likely a hazard ( as others have pointed out) Kind of reminds me of some of the 4 wheel drive operators who think because they have 4 wheel drive they are invincible in snowy road conditions. If you drive too fast for the condition's it doesn't matter what equipment you have. I would add that a radar reflector helps as well and hence believe that operating slowly, keeping very careful watch, having experience in fog and the area you are navigating, sounding your horn, don't be afraid to use your radio to wan others of your location, having radar and understanding your radar, having a reflector mounted high and common sense are all important when travelling in fog. Common sense would also include maybe deciding it's safer to not go out in it if you don't have to.
Tugcapitan
Well-Known Member
Some good advice here.
Some, not so much.
Rule 19 of the collision regulations... Study it. Understand it. Follow it.
As for "eyes glued to the radar", or "running on GPS". A good tip learned from Bridge management techniques is not to spend more than 4 seconds looking at any aid to navigation in the wheelhouse in between looking out the window.
The equipment available today is amazing. The more you can fit, afford and learn to use the better, "all available means". The only thing that will make you any good in the fog is experience, common sense, and adherence to the collision regulations.
Some, not so much.
Rule 19 of the collision regulations... Study it. Understand it. Follow it.
As for "eyes glued to the radar", or "running on GPS". A good tip learned from Bridge management techniques is not to spend more than 4 seconds looking at any aid to navigation in the wheelhouse in between looking out the window.
The equipment available today is amazing. The more you can fit, afford and learn to use the better, "all available means". The only thing that will make you any good in the fog is experience, common sense, and adherence to the collision regulations.
Cuba Libre
Well-Known Member
Peahead has nailed it... Common sense would also include maybe deciding it's safer to not go out in it if you don't have to.
Clint r
Well-Known Member
Sorry to resurrect this old thread but it's very interesting. Is this reg requiring charts meant for all boats or just commercial/guide operated ones? Where do I find the regulations folks quote here? I've read here and on a few other threads some very good info but people periodically mention "the regulations" and I'm not sure where to find them.
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