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- Thread starter Jwolfe
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Rum Buddies
Well-Known Member
totally unrelated? Is this like saying we shouldn't oppose the gas line because we are doing something else bad in Victoria? Even little kids know that 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
Funny you mention this as I am in the middle of writing a paper on it. I oppose the principle of disposing of our waste in such a manner but research shows the impact is relatively small. Still as our population increases small impacts will certainly become more pressing. Here is my abstract for anyone who isn't aware of the topic.
Victoria is a city situated on the southern tip of Vancouver Island off the coast of British Columbia, Canada. The area is world renowned for its natural coastal beauty, which brings droves of tourists in from around the world each year. Few know however that Victoria has dirty little secret submerged conveniently out of sight just a short distance offshore in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Here the city has found a cost efficient way to dispose of their wastewater, through two outfall pipes that carry this material “to the marine environment after preliminary treatment by screening” (Rogers, 1994, p.1). Located off of Macaulay and Clover point, these outfalls pump approximately 130 million liters of raw sewage directly into the the local waters each day. The wastewater exits the pipeline at depths of 60 meters where it becomes diluted with ocean waters and carried away by currents. Wastewater treatment using this approach is not unique to Victoria, as it is a method used worldwide, but typically it is seen in “developing countries where financial resources are limited” (Palmer, 1999, p.3). In a developed, environmentally conscious country such as Canada the cost saving practice of disposing untreated wastewater should be restructured as the capital, management and knowledge is available. This paper will explore the issue further highlighting the background information, the problem and alternative methods.
Victoria is a city situated on the southern tip of Vancouver Island off the coast of British Columbia, Canada. The area is world renowned for its natural coastal beauty, which brings droves of tourists in from around the world each year. Few know however that Victoria has dirty little secret submerged conveniently out of sight just a short distance offshore in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Here the city has found a cost efficient way to dispose of their wastewater, through two outfall pipes that carry this material “to the marine environment after preliminary treatment by screening” (Rogers, 1994, p.1). Located off of Macaulay and Clover point, these outfalls pump approximately 130 million liters of raw sewage directly into the the local waters each day. The wastewater exits the pipeline at depths of 60 meters where it becomes diluted with ocean waters and carried away by currents. Wastewater treatment using this approach is not unique to Victoria, as it is a method used worldwide, but typically it is seen in “developing countries where financial resources are limited” (Palmer, 1999, p.3). In a developed, environmentally conscious country such as Canada the cost saving practice of disposing untreated wastewater should be restructured as the capital, management and knowledge is available. This paper will explore the issue further highlighting the background information, the problem and alternative methods.
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Gunsmith
Well-Known Member
Good point, in a sense they are unrelated except that they are both encouraged involuntarily by the same people who oppose them. You can't have just a little bit and say it is not causing any harm. We are rapidly approaching a point where what we have done will take over and force us to act on it. I may sound like I am wearing a tin foil hat but the facts are there.
GLG
Well-Known Member
It was short sighted in the past to look at waste treatment as being too expensive to do at the time.
Those that argued for the quick fix, least cost solution won the day.
A mistake in my estimation as most cites in Canada have very good system that are affordable.
The social license to operate the current system has run out.
Now to clean up this mess we will have to spend a lot of dough.
Best to find solutions that we can do without breaking the bank.
There is a lesson to be learned from this experience.
The decisions you make will have consequences in the future.
Those true cost will be to future generations.
Now for the pipeline and tankers.
Here is our chance to make a decision that affects our future generations.
Can we risk an oil spill and the costs of clean up?
Can we burn all that carbon and still manage a world that is 4 - 6 degrees warmer?
Who is going to pay for that and what are the costs?
So here we are with two problems, waste treatment and oil export.
One problem is a mistake from the past and one is a mistake for the future.
I can't do anything to stop a mistake from the past but I can do something for the future.
So what's more important.... For me it's the future... for my kids and there kids.
GLG
Those that argued for the quick fix, least cost solution won the day.
A mistake in my estimation as most cites in Canada have very good system that are affordable.
The social license to operate the current system has run out.
Now to clean up this mess we will have to spend a lot of dough.
Best to find solutions that we can do without breaking the bank.
There is a lesson to be learned from this experience.
The decisions you make will have consequences in the future.
Those true cost will be to future generations.
Now for the pipeline and tankers.
Here is our chance to make a decision that affects our future generations.
Can we risk an oil spill and the costs of clean up?
Can we burn all that carbon and still manage a world that is 4 - 6 degrees warmer?
Who is going to pay for that and what are the costs?
So here we are with two problems, waste treatment and oil export.
One problem is a mistake from the past and one is a mistake for the future.
I can't do anything to stop a mistake from the past but I can do something for the future.
So what's more important.... For me it's the future... for my kids and there kids.
GLG
Comparing sewage to a pipeline is good.So let's compare a pipeline to fish farms.
There has not been a pipelins accident in B.C..There has not been a tanker accident in B.C..There have been pipeline accidents in other areas as well as tanker spills.Even tho there have not been accidents in B.C. we are aware of the potential and therefore have some fear of what could happen.We then have a right to insist that unless there is a safe way to have pipelines and tankers they not be used in B.C
Now fishfarms.While we have not had a major disease issue with farmed salmon and there is no difinitive proof that they are having an affect on wild fish,we do know that there have been issues in other countries.So why wouldn't we use the same logic as we do with piplines and oil tankers.Until we can be sure that fishfarms do no harm,don't allow them in our waters.
There has not been a pipelins accident in B.C..There has not been a tanker accident in B.C..There have been pipeline accidents in other areas as well as tanker spills.Even tho there have not been accidents in B.C. we are aware of the potential and therefore have some fear of what could happen.We then have a right to insist that unless there is a safe way to have pipelines and tankers they not be used in B.C
Now fishfarms.While we have not had a major disease issue with farmed salmon and there is no difinitive proof that they are having an affect on wild fish,we do know that there have been issues in other countries.So why wouldn't we use the same logic as we do with piplines and oil tankers.Until we can be sure that fishfarms do no harm,don't allow them in our waters.
Wwunder
Member
ummmm..... Have we forgotten about the Exxon Valdez tanker and the Kinder Morgan pipeline that was damaged by an excavator? We have had both tanker and pipeline spills in recent history. I don't mean to dispute your other point though.
Fish Assassin
Crew Member
Does the False Creek area in Vancouver not still pump raw sewage into Vancouver's harbour?
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
Yup I agree that society is hypocritical to attack the industries they rely on. For the Victoria sewage topic however there are many other choices of treatment than marine outfall disposal. Who knows what will happen with the oil industry. We are going to milk that for all it's worth before we restructure society to not rely on it. Back in the 70's they were predicting a worldwide shortage by this point and we are still trucking along. Technology and new sources will no doubt prolong the oil lifespan but how long is anyones guess.
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
The market won't go away anytime soon. I figure when we burn up almost all of the oil, our quality of life will start to degrade and society will slowly restructure out of necessity. Global warming might affect our fossil fuel use but not change it. Who knows the timescale though? 100-200+ years? Maybe we will even find a new energy source?
Osama Bin Hopper
Active Member
We know we've passed peak production so it's time to start planning ahead. We clearly consume and need the resource but where is the sense in further phucking our resources to send them to China? I just don't know how that helps in any way.
If you got a few bucks in the bank and you know everyone else is gonna be broke do you give it away or prepare for the inevitable? It's our mess, let's just not make it messier.
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
I totally agree the systems messed up. Here's a blurb from a paper I wrote on the topic this week. I think the mighty $$ will only initiate change and not planning from common sense.
"Fossil fuels are the largest concern as we have utilized the most easily accessible supplies and are now squeezing the resource for all it’s worth. The result of this is higher prices for extraction as we target the arctic and ocean regions for the last sources. This has driven oil prices to extreme levels but we are still not at the point where the prices are so extreme that it pressures society into change. In the essay it mentions that “conservation, is usually induced by price rather than by policy” and this could not be more true for fossil fuel energy sources. We can see the end of our run utilizing non renewable resources but will continue to see how far we can stretch it. "
Ps I don't typically like posting on topics like this but it's certainly an interesting topic that will affect us all in the end.
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Gunsmith
Well-Known Member
Well Ziggy humans are like animals, put too many together as in villages to cities and we begin to have problems such as disease, pestilence , violence, and garbage and sewage problems. In Asia they have the sewage problem figured out, grow fish and shrimp in it and package it up and sell it to us.
Osama Bin Hopper
Active Member
Well Ziggy humans are like animals, put too many together as in villages to cities and we begin to have problems such as disease, pestilence , violence, and garbage and sewage problems. In Asia they have the sewage problem figured out, grow fish and shrimp in it and package it up and sell it to us.
Yep.
Juan de Poopa sweet baby shrimps!! I wanna be in on the ground floor of this new opporpoonity!!
Money to be made, people still buy farmed Atlantics!
I generally have no problem working out where I stand on fish habitat environmental issues but have struggled with the treatment plant issue because the environmental gains in doing so don’t appear to be all that definitive. Victoria has a unique physical location which allows for deepwater high current disposal and to some degree, natural treatment.
Moving it to land based treatment is by no means and environmental free ride, because the concentrates and pollutants are either going to end up leaching into the ground water and we have a lot less fresh water than salt. It may eventually get into our streams and the sea at a surface level or end up evaporating and being burned into the atmosphere and some washed back to earth, or a combination of the three. There is also considerable environmental costs related to the energy generation and carbon costs to run this treatment system. Even the expects are not all speaking from the same page on this. Perhaps others more knowledgeable than I have come up with the definitive answer. I am willing to be educated because I know I don’t really know enough to be truly informed on it. I would like to be dancing and celebrating sewage treatment going forward but so far the best I can muster is a little luke warm support.
Could the billions land based treatment will cost the Greater Victoria area be better spent on other projects that would benefit the environment and our fish? Possibly, but I am also not so naive to think that money would ever get spent on the environment if it was transferred from this project.
The local politics on the location of the treatment and sludge factories also disturbs me. It would appear that as a result of some pretty sleazy CRD backroom deal making, a lower economic area like Esquimalt now gets to bear the property devaluation costs, lost development advantages and ongoing odor/quality of life costs of both the treatment factory and the sludge factory while more affluent areas end up smelling like roses. Esquimalt and more rural areas such as around the Hartland Dump end up smelling like…, well, not roses. Nor do the wealthy, the privileged and the politically connected seem very interested in financially compensating Esquimalt with a few hundred million. Nothing new in that I guess.
Moving it to land based treatment is by no means and environmental free ride, because the concentrates and pollutants are either going to end up leaching into the ground water and we have a lot less fresh water than salt. It may eventually get into our streams and the sea at a surface level or end up evaporating and being burned into the atmosphere and some washed back to earth, or a combination of the three. There is also considerable environmental costs related to the energy generation and carbon costs to run this treatment system. Even the expects are not all speaking from the same page on this. Perhaps others more knowledgeable than I have come up with the definitive answer. I am willing to be educated because I know I don’t really know enough to be truly informed on it. I would like to be dancing and celebrating sewage treatment going forward but so far the best I can muster is a little luke warm support.
Could the billions land based treatment will cost the Greater Victoria area be better spent on other projects that would benefit the environment and our fish? Possibly, but I am also not so naive to think that money would ever get spent on the environment if it was transferred from this project.
The local politics on the location of the treatment and sludge factories also disturbs me. It would appear that as a result of some pretty sleazy CRD backroom deal making, a lower economic area like Esquimalt now gets to bear the property devaluation costs, lost development advantages and ongoing odor/quality of life costs of both the treatment factory and the sludge factory while more affluent areas end up smelling like roses. Esquimalt and more rural areas such as around the Hartland Dump end up smelling like…, well, not roses. Nor do the wealthy, the privileged and the politically connected seem very interested in financially compensating Esquimalt with a few hundred million. Nothing new in that I guess.
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ziggy
Well-Known Member
Well Ziggy humans are like animals, put too many together as in villages to cities and we begin to have problems such as disease, pestilence , violence, and garbage and sewage problems. In Asia they have the sewage problem figured out, grow fish and shrimp in it and package it up and sell it to us.
I hear you, I saw all that out halibut fishing this weekend. Well not the sewage part but the rest of it. Lol.
