Awesome - "Must See" - Fishfarming Film!

Sockeyefry you rock.

There is a ton of scientific papers supporting fish farming. If you are on Vancouver Island go to VIU to the fisheries and aquaculture department at the top of the campus and ask any faculty for some papers to read if its information you want.

p.s. the leading anti-FISH-farming (Alexandre Morton) scientist is a whale biologist who only took on studying the effects of fish farming because it was her husbands work when he died.Last I checked whales are mammals making me question her overly hyped attacks in the first place. Not to mention her large amount of support by the ever famous David Suzuki, whom I have name many a dump after
 
quote:Originally posted by EmptiesInTheSwanson

Sockeyefry you rock.


p.s. the leading anti-FISH-farming (Alexandre Morton) scientist is a whale biologist who only took on studying the effects of fish farming because it was her husbands work when he died.

WRONG sooo sorry your facts are way off

Picture002-1.jpg
 
Thanks for the article, almost completely supports me. She isnt even a scientist, just works with a couple
 
Welcome Empties

It is so nice to have a friend here now that Barbender has left.

I am glad that some one else gets the BS around Morton and her cronies
 
He'll surely be your only friend here out of thousands of members so you may as well milk-it while you can Sock!

My guess is: a) You recruited him/her/it. b) It is Barbender under a new alias
 
Well Hawk, you can eliminate #1.

Actually besides a select few there hasn't really been many people posting for or against.
 
quote:Originally posted by EmptiesInTheSwanson

Thanks for the article, almost completely supports me. She [Morton} isnt even a scientist, just works with a couple
Yawwn there, empty from the neck up...

Same-old tiring regurgitation of corporate name-calling and shooting the messenger. Is this the best you can do? We already covered this at: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847

You're not Handee re-incarnated, are ya?

If Morton doesn’t have a PhD (only a lowly BSc), and is outpublishing the pro-industry hired guns and DFO – what does that say about their competence?

Ken Brooks is a geologist, not a fisheries scientist - yet he gets paid to defend your industry - yet I haven't hear you whining about he being qualified to defend anything regarding fish.

check-out Stephen Hume's Article below:

Science is a method; it does not insist on a credential
Stephen Hume. The Vancouver Sun. Vancouver, B.C.: Jun 25, 2008. pg. A.15
Copyright Southam Publications Inc. Jun 25, 2008

Any mention of Alexandra Morton, the feisty whistleblower who first drew unwelcome attention to sea lice and the interaction between farmed and wild salmon in the Broughton archipelago, routinely draws e-mail scoffing that she's not a "real" scientist because she doesn't have a PhD.

Science is not a credential. Science is a method. Science is practised every day by people who don't have PhDs. Indeed, people without academic credentials as we'd recognize them today laid the foundations for our entire edifice of scientific knowledge.

And some who hold PhDs are not practising science but use the credential to lend weight to opinions that they wish to advance in service of other agendas -- corporate objectives, government policy, propaganda supporting various causes, etc.

Science is a process by which we attempt an accurate representation of the world and how it works. Anybody is free to use the scientific method, it's not exclusive to the PhD club. If the results subsequently meet the rigorous criteria demanded by that method, then the findings are, by definition, a "scientific" result.

Scientific method is elegant and simple. It can be applied to any subject, hence "political science," "social science" and "life science" among the physical sciences.

Poets use scientific method to analyze the way verse works, its rhythms, metres, internal structures and its cultural and historical contexts, even whether a particular ancient Greek is more or less likely to be the author of an attributed fragment.

Choreographers use scientific method to determine the most efficient use of the available dance floor. Smart football coaches use it to calculate which offensive plays are most likely to succeed against which defensive formations.

Journalists use it all the time, sifting through heaps of apparently conflicting or unrelated information looking for pattern, incongruence, the consequences of cause and effect that might explain the outcomes of elections, international conflicts or the flow of commerce.

Scientific method demands not the prior approval of academic institutions, governments or corporations, but intelligence, curiosity, the ability to frame a question or design tests for a hypothesis, attention to detail, diligent gathering of evidence and then challenging the hypothesis and reporting honestly whether it stands up or collapses.

Nobody requires a PhD to do this. Nor does possession of a PhD guarantee that a conclusion is automatically superior to one arrived at by somebody with no degree at all. The value of the conclusion depends entirely upon the soundness of the method.

Certainly, the knowledge required to obtain a higher degree brings expectation of proficiency in framing hypotheses, analyzing data and evaluating results, yet the scientific literature is rife with examples of scholars with PhDs whose methods are subsequently found wanting by their peers. It's the method that's at issue, not academic reputation.

I don't draw these parallels to dismiss the value of credentials in higher learning. But it's important to recognize them for what they are and not to conflate them with what they are not. Owning a credential has nothing to do with application of method.

My intent is merely to point out that dismissing one person's analysis because that person doesn't happen to fall into a particular category -- not having a PhD, for example -- may satisfy the critic's desire to affirm preconceptions, but it's no basis for assuming that the work isn't perfectly good science.

Thus, anybody who seeks answers by proper use of scientific method qualifies as a scientist -- and that includes school kids who construct award-winning science fair projects.

Obtaining a PhD doesn't automatically make one a scientist. It means only that one has received a credential for achieving certain educational objectives that satisfy the standards of a particular institution. Seeking consistent answers to questions using scientific method is what makes scientists.

So e-mailing me to denounce Morton's -- or anyone else's -- research as not credible because she doesn't possess a PhD and therefore is not a "real" scientist may feel satisfying to the senders, but it is essentially worthless as criticism and is unworthy as personal comment.

Do the strict criteria of the scientific method govern the process by which the researcher achieves conclusions? That's the only issue.

shume@islandnet.com

Credit: Stephen Hume; Special to the Sun
 
Well Agentaqua the reason she is out publishing is sensationalism and fear. Uneducated readers will obviously latch on to whatever is the scariest. If someone publishes a story that says "cucumbers will kill your children" and someone else publishes a story saying "cucumbers are fine and are a great compliment to your salad" I think we both know which is going to sell papers.

My problem is if there is a lack of well rounded knowledge anything will be blindly believed with religeous conviction making whomever is shouting from their soap box suddenly a brilliant saviour.

And No I am not Barbender. Just someone else who thinks for himself. I have fished sport, fished commercial and farmed salmon and shellfish. I spent a couple years in college studying aquaculture and realized much of the aggresion between pro-wild and pro-cultured advocates is nothing but one person pointing at the first thing in their way. The oceans are global and its rediculous to think the virus and the cure are all contained in our little ecosystem
 
quote:Originally posted by EmptiesInTheSwanson

Well Agentaqua the reason she is out publishing is sensationalism and fear. Uneducated readers will obviously latch on to whatever is the scariest.
The reason she gets her stuff published in peer-reviewed journals is because it is valid science - reviewed by many peers in the science community. It's that simple, empty.

The reason the "other guys" are fumbling is because they are trying to defend the industry against getting some of their impacts highlighted.

Read the peer-reviewed literature, starting with the link Cuttlefish posted at: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2009/07/02/rspb.2009.0771.full.pdf

It's not a study by those evil DSF card-carrying anti's. It's by a well respected industry scientist, Mark Costello. In it he states (p.6): "The evidence that salmon farms are the most significant source of the epizootics of sea lice on juvenile wild salmonids in Europe and North America is now convincing".

Don't get brain-washed, capital M, capital T. Get ed-U-ma-cated, son.
 
quick question. Is it common to get personal on this forum the second someone says something you dont agree with? Conversation has nothing to do with us at all and probably has absolutely no bearing on the real world and people get their hackles up enough to be actually angry at somebody... hilarious. Honestly though let me know if this is the kind of place where you cant say whats on your mind without somebody attacking you personally rather than just attacking your point of view. I will simply not give my input/opinion on anything if it makes people cry.
 
Cheers All,

Before going further I must state that I don't harbour resentment towards anyone that hold viewpoints that differ from mine and I will not get personal. It is the message that offends me and, I am sure, that I hold viewpoints that others don't agree with too. In fact, the very nature of science requires perspective from both sides to ensure validity. However I respectfully ask that we look for solutions to problems and not degenerate into name calling and open hostilities. For this I thank you.

In response to sockeyefry's comment that I haven't looked very far for 'any evidence which supports fish farming' one must first define fish farming. I would suggest that there is amply evidence that fish farming not only 'could' be beneficial but, with the constant pressure on wild fish stocks, eventually will be necessary in order to supply protein to an ever expanding world population.

We raise chickens, cows, sheep and an almost endless variety of others - including fish - to sustain our human population. We do this in an effort to find protein that is safe and financially economical. I believe that we can raise fish in a safe fashion and that, eventually, we will be forced in that direction. What I do believe, and what the scientific information and evidence currently shows is that we are not there. Open nets are not safe and are only used as they are financially economical - to the benefit of a select few and at the significant expense of our wild fish populations and the environment itself.

Sockeyefry...I am intent on saving wild salmon and, upon that point, you have me entirely correct. I will save them because I enjoy fishing. I will save them because I enjoy summer salmon bbq's and wild salmon taste great. I will save them because many people pay me well to do something that I enjoy. I will save them because those people enjoy the experience - we call it recreation - and the smile while they are in the midst of a slab is truely priceless. I will save them because my students deserve a chance to learn how to fish and enjoy both the experience and the product. And, yes, I will save them because they are our canary in the coal mine and, as long as they exist I know that we have not totally screwed up the environment and, as such, there is hope. I will save them!

This past weekend saw two charters: one to Port Alberni for sockeye and one to Ucluelet for springs. On both trips we limited out. If I believed for one moment that my impact on this resource would place these wild salmon in jeopardy my boat would remain high and dry. While I have significant doubt as to the creditablility of DFO and their ability to protect our wild fish (remember they are the ones who gave open net pens the green light) I must believe that they have some faint idea of what they are doing and that their numbers indeed allow for my fishing opportunity and retention. My impact on the environment and upon wild stocks does not statistically show compared to the impact upon wild stocks through open net pens.

When you suggest that my students are against fish farms 'because that is what you tell them to be' you obviously did not carefully read my previous response or you are not a parent of a high school student. My students - and I would dare go out on a branch here and suggest most students - are against open net fish farms because of the science. To suggest that I could simply tell them what to believe and they would go with the flow is simply not reality. Our students are intelligent and one only has to stand at the back of a high school class for a few minutes to realize one important fact - they have working brains - and, for the most part, know how to use them. Not only do I not tell them - nor, for that matter, can you - but I actually tell them specifically that I won't do their work for them. This is their choice and they have to make up his or her own mind but...their final report MUST be supported fully with scientific evidence which provides for their mindset. I know you would be impressed if you took the time to see the process in action. It really works.

I thank you for your suggestion about the BC Salmon Farmers Association and the information that they may provide. However I ask quite sincerely: will this be accurate and scientific evidence obtained through scientific inquirey or will it be 'information' from a biased group wishing to place it's industry in the best light? I know I can 'claim' my charter company is the 'Best in the West' and that nobody equals my company. Ask me and I will (could) tell you. However a scientific exploration of that claim would show many other more qualified guides depending on your criteria (age, location, boat size, area fished, species targetted, etc....). In order for you to make up your mind upon a charter you would be advised to do some research to find out the 'real bottom line.'

Again...you and I differ in our perspective upon open net fish farming. My effort is to ensure - as soon as possible - that we remove open net farms from our ocean environment and place them on shore using as sophisticated technology as is currently available to filter the effluent in order to isolate our impact on the marine environmnet. When that occurs I think you may be surprised that public opinion may swing in your favour. In the meanwhile I will support efforts to save the wild salmon from the impacts of open net pens.
 
Cheers All,

Before going further I must state that I don't harbour resentment towards anyone that hold viewpoints that differ from mine and I will not get personal. It is the message that offends me and, I am sure, that I hold viewpoints that others don't agree with too. In fact, the very nature of science requires perspective from both sides to ensure validity. However I respectfully ask that we look for solutions to problems and not degenerate into name calling and open hostilities. For this I thank you.

In response to sockeyefry's comment that I haven't looked very far for 'any evidence which supports fish farming' one must first define fish farming. I would suggest that there is amply evidence that fish farming not only 'could' be beneficial but, with the constant pressure on wild fish stocks, eventually will be necessary in order to supply protein to an ever expanding world population.

We raise chickens, cows, sheep and an almost endless variety of others - including fish - to sustain our human population. We do this in an effort to find protein that is safe and financially economical. I believe that we can raise fish in a safe fashion and that, eventually, we will be forced in that direction. What I do believe, and what the scientific information and evidence currently shows is that we are not there. Open nets are not safe and are only used as they are financially economical - to the benefit of a select few and at the significant expense of our wild fish populations and the environment itself.

Sockeyefry...I am intent on saving wild salmon and, upon that point, you have me entirely correct. I will save them because I enjoy fishing. I will save them because I enjoy summer salmon bbq's and wild salmon taste great. I will save them because many people pay me well to do something that I enjoy. I will save them because those people enjoy the experience - we call it recreation - and the smile while they are in the midst of a slab is truely priceless. I will save them because my students deserve a chance to learn how to fish and enjoy both the experience and the product. And, yes, I will save them because they are our canary in the coal mine and, as long as they exist I know that we have not totally screwed up the environment and, as such, there is hope. I will save them!

This past weekend saw two charters: one to Port Alberni for sockeye and one to Ucluelet for springs. On both trips we limited out. If I believed for one moment that my impact on this resource would place these wild salmon in jeopardy my boat would remain high and dry. While I have significant doubt as to the creditablility of DFO and their ability to protect our wild fish (remember they are the ones who gave open net pens the green light) I must believe that they have some faint idea of what they are doing and that their numbers indeed allow for my fishing opportunity and retention. My impact on the environment and upon wild stocks does not statistically show compared to the impact upon wild stocks through open net pens.

When you suggest that my students are against fish farms 'because that is what you tell them to be' you obviously did not carefully read my previous response or you are not a parent of a high school student. My students - and I would dare go out on a branch here and suggest most students - are against open net fish farms because of the science. To suggest that I could simply tell them what to believe and they would go with the flow is simply not reality. Our students are intelligent and one only has to stand at the back of a high school class for a few minutes to realize one important fact - they have working brains - and, for the most part, know how to use them. Not only do I not tell them - nor, for that matter, can you - but I actually tell them specifically that I won't do their work for them. This is their choice and they have to make up his or her own mind but...their final report MUST be supported fully with scientific evidence which provides for their mindset. I know you would be impressed if you took the time to see the process in action. It really works.

I thank you for your suggestion about the BC Salmon Farmers Association and the information that they may provide. However I ask quite sincerely: will this be accurate and scientific evidence obtained through scientific inquirey or will it be 'information' from a biased group wishing to place it's industry in the best light? I know I can 'claim' my charter company is the 'Best in the West' and that nobody equals my company. Ask me and I will (could) tell you. However a scientific exploration of that claim would show many other more qualified guides depending on your criteria (age, location, boat size, area fished, species targetted, etc....). In order for you to make up your mind upon a charter you would be advised to do some research to find out the 'real bottom line.'

Again...you and I differ in our perspective upon open net fish farming. My effort is to ensure - as soon as possible - that we remove open net farms from our ocean environment and place them on shore using as sophisticated technology as is currently available to filter the effluent in order to isolate our impact on the marine environmnet. When that occurs I think you may be surprised that public opinion may swing in your favour. In the meanwhile I will support efforts to save the wild salmon from the impacts of open net pens.
 
Hey FG,

If you couldn't find any evidence then you did not look very hard.

How do you protect a species from extinction by eating them?

Find me the statistics which indicate that a fish farm harms thwe wild salmon. Not an opinion piece of what could happen, but actually proof of an effect which has occurred in BC. Good luck cause there isn't any.

Your students are wet behind the ears Kids who can be told to believe anything. They would gleefully line up to sign a petition banning DiHydrogen Monoxide. (This was acrtually done by Penn and Teller on the TV show "B*llsh*t". Theyc ionvimced a bunch of college age kids to sign such a petition by telling them as whole bunch of half truths. Do you know what DHM is?


It's Water Good ole H2O.

The BCSFA info will be no less biased than the info you get from Morton, the GSA and CAAR. It's just the other side of the story. Thought you might like some enlightnement.

Once the technolgy is developed, the farms will be on shore. All salmon farming companies are actively involved or have been involved in this type of research. I really do hope we can develop such technology, but to date it has not been so. It really would make farming so much easier.

Yes Empties, unfortunately that's what happens here. You just have to ignore it and drive on. Little Hawk and Chris 73 are the worst for it. Agent hasn't to my knowledge, although he can be a little condescending.

Agent,

Costello's paper is nothing more than a literature review with his opinion of what he has read. Hardly something which would be considered hard evidence. Same stuff as Brian Harvey, which you ripped Agent.
 
Sockeye;

How soon you forget just who it was that referred to the opposition to the environmental-rape you so heartily defend -as sheep!

This is but one example where you, too, have allowed that 'little-schoolboy' in all of us to rise to the surface. Do yourself a favor and throw your sinking-presence here a lifeline - look in a mirror once in a while.


Truth of it is, my attitude, and likely that of Chris's and others, is simply a product of intense frustration with our own collusive government for being in bed with this industry - when they know damn well it's wrong!

Evidence is IN! Time to get the fish-farmers OUT!

What I need to do is work on controlling my anger and let common-sense and Nature take its course, after all if you, Sockeye, are the best sentry the industry has to lurk here and disseminate lies among the sport-fishing community, few if any of the big-holes in this sinking boat will be plugged...
 
I find this thread fascinating, having read 98% of it and appreciate the contributions of all in keeping the debate going.
quote:Your students are wet behind the ears Kids who can be told to believe anything
One question for you SF- How old were you when your indoctrination into your belief system regarding farmed salmon began? My guesses would be your family is involved or a very influential older role model with a financial stake in the business won you over very early. Or you just spin for a living and could just as easily join Little Hawk's camp for the right price.
 
quote:Originally posted by sockeyefry

Actually there are FN's which are active fish farmers, and others which have accepted fishfarming in their territioeies. there are a few vocal FN's like Bob Chamberlain which give the false impression that all FN's are against Fish farming.

Sorry Fishing Guide, there is a large amount of relevent scientific research which supports fish farming as does the simple fact that all the dire predictions of wild salmon extinction go unfufilled year after year. As part of your guide service do you allow sports to take fish for food or do you follow strict catch and release? Are you using your podium in the class romm to further spread the word of the "evil fish farms" to quote Brisco?
I would have to agree that not all F/N people are against fish farming.I did,however,have the privilege of listening to Shawn Atleo speak in Fernie last April and he had serious concerns about the fish farms in his traditional territory(Marktosis/Ahousaht)I'm sure we all know who Chief Atleo is and what he's become in the last couple of days.Given his concerns and his new position as Grand Chief,I'd say that the Open Pen fish farmers should be a little bit concerned about the future of their business in his territory at least.
I oppose Open Pen fish farms and I really don't care who knows it or if they agree with me.Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's mine.
Dave
 
quote:Originally posted by tubber

I find this thread fascinating, having read 98% of it and appreciate the contributions of all in keeping the debate going.
quote:Your students are wet behind the ears Kids who can be told to believe anything
One question for you SF- How old were you when your indoctrination into your belief system regarding farmed salmon began? My guesses would be your family is involved or a very influential older role model with a financial stake in the business won you over very early. Or you just spin for a living and could just as easily join Little Hawk's camp for the right price.
 
[/quote]
quote:Originally posted by tubber

I find this thread fascinating, having read 98% of it and appreciate the contributions of all in keeping the debate going.
quote:Your students are wet behind the ears Kids who can be told to believe anything
One question for you SF- How old were you when your indoctrination into your belief system regarding farmed salmon began? My guesses would be your family is involved or a very influential older role model with a financial stake in the business won you over very early. Or you just spin for a living and could just as easily join Little Hawk's camp for the right price.

Well put tubber.
....I guess it is not surprising though that the bulk of those in favour of fish farming (the way it presently exists) will most likely have a some sort of stake or intrest in the industry. Those that do, will stand to lose alot of $ if the industry is made to jump through many hoops to exist. Being more heavily regulated and/or moved to land base will cost money. I don't care if it cost the industry tons of money to satisfy all scientific concerns. Like all business, it cost money to do business safely, sustainably and legally. What upsets me is that the government is in bed with this industry because it makes big money. Its no wonder government and the industry are turning their backs on the suggestions that this industry harms/kills our fish. Its alsmost as if Government/DFO would rather just let the wild fish die off, cut off funding to hatcheries and then there would be no argument.
The wild fish belong to all of us. How dare government allow this industry to take them away from us and our children, especially when there is a way for both to exist without the harm.
 
Back
Top