ATTENTION: JOIN THE WAR ON FISHFARMING!

[agentaqua]

old steely man you write:

quote:
I think the rule's were broken on this forum by a certain someone and this matter should be addressed the people who run this forum.Lets put an end to this topic its getting to personal for my likening.

Thank you for this. Thank you for reining in the antagonism. If I have offended anyone (incl. sockeyefry) by my obvious frustration expressed as antagonism - I do apologize.

My explanation is: I believe that sockeyefry is a prominent member of the profishfarming lobby; and if you've tried to be nice to this industry for years, and have been ignored, marginalized, and lied to at every turn - ya, one gets frustrated to the point of lashing back. It seems to be the only way that you don't get ignored. To those unfamiliar with the industry and it's tactics - the communication seems unnecessarily harsh.

Once you hear the lies long enough, you get angry – especially once you see the impacts this industry has on your community’s lifeblood. I don’t apologize for the points I raised, or the discussion that ensues. I believe they need to be answered, and I am hoping that others on this discussion list will appreciate the insights. I know some have already expressed that sediment (thanks Little Hawk and Striper Sniper). I’d like to hear from others.

 

[fishman69er]

first off, i would like to say good on you, to all who took place in this great 'on going' debate, after very quickly scanning through the first say 17 pages of back and forth i was greatly impressed with the passsion that everyone has, it was until the last few pages that i started to lose all respect for it all, when the facts and personal experiences started to turn to name calling and belittling, so i am also calling out to the mods to shut it down, cause its not going to get any better.

 

[fishman69er]

first off, i would like to say good on you, to all who took place in this great 'on going' debate, after very quickly scanning through the first say 17 pages of back and forth i was greatly impressed with the passsion that everyone has, it was until the last few pages that i started to lose all respect for it all, when the facts and personal experiences started to turn to name calling and belittling, so i am also calling out to the mods to shut it down, cause its not going to get any better.

 

[Nimo]

I also agree that the name calling etc is unneccesary and in fact diminishes all of the great things these people have to say. However, I absolutely would not call for an end to this thread.

It will get worse before it gets better.

Keep up the good work Wild Salmon Alliance.

 

[Nimo]

I also agree that the name calling etc is unneccesary and in fact diminishes all of the great things these people have to say. However, I absolutely would not call for an end to this thread.

It will get worse before it gets better.

Keep up the good work Wild Salmon Alliance.

 

[old steely man]

Agentaqua
Im just sick at all of the name calling ,too tell someone to blank off i won't say the word but we all know what word he's inplying is not right and i don't care how passionate you are on the subject and i'm not talking about you but another person in this debate .

I don't think it's right at all ,let put an end too this post now.

 

[old steely man]

Agentaqua
Im just sick at all of the name calling ,too tell someone to blank off i won't say the word but we all know what word he's inplying is not right and i don't care how passionate you are on the subject and i'm not talking about you but another person in this debate .

I don't think it's right at all ,let put an end too this post now.

 

[old steely man]

Nimo i guess the rule's don't matter on this forum when you can call anyone what you want i think telling someone to f--- off broke the rule's.

 

[old steely man]

Nimo i guess the rule's don't matter on this forum when you can call anyone what you want i think telling someone to f--- off broke the rule's.

 

[fishman69er]

sorry to say it Nimo,but it seems to be the anti-fishfarm ones that are throwin around the f- bombs, so if what you say is true is it them that are feeling the anger and fear and the so called noose? just my view on the situation?

 

[fishman69er]

sorry to say it Nimo,but it seems to be the anti-fishfarm ones that are throwin around the f- bombs, so if what you say is true is it them that are feeling the anger and fear and the so called noose? just my view on the situation?

 

[Nimo]

I didn't say the rules don't matter and in fact I agree that the language is out.

When I read a post and see some of the language mentioned, that is all I get out of that post. That is all I remember. I don't remember the great point that may have otherwise been made.

However, I feel that the cause is too important to end the thread on language. With that said, you're in your right to put forth any motion that you feel is necessary.

 

[Nimo]

I didn't say the rules don't matter and in fact I agree that the language is out.

When I read a post and see some of the language mentioned, that is all I get out of that post. That is all I remember. I don't remember the great point that may have otherwise been made.

However, I feel that the cause is too important to end the thread on language. With that said, you're in your right to put forth any motion that you feel is necessary.

 

[sockeyefry]

Guys, It is unfortunate that a person cannot have a civilized debate regarding this issue without being ridiculed and called names, told to EFF OFF simpy for diagreeing with a few people. I have my viewpoint, and was willing to discuss it here. Youy all seem so convinced that I am a pro industry hack or work on a farm in the Broughton, I am neither. Just a guy interested in the debate, and I was hoping to interject some alternate viewpoints, and in turn gain some insight myself. Unfortunately this is not the case. We could go on playing dueling scientists, but that would be futile. The mods should close this thread.

PS for what it's worth, I have some friends who do work in the industry, and they are just as frustrated with the anti farm lobby as you Agent are with industry, and for the same reasons.

 

[sockeyefry]

Guys, It is unfortunate that a person cannot have a civilized debate regarding this issue without being ridiculed and called names, told to EFF OFF simpy for diagreeing with a few people. I have my viewpoint, and was willing to discuss it here. Youy all seem so convinced that I am a pro industry hack or work on a farm in the Broughton, I am neither. Just a guy interested in the debate, and I was hoping to interject some alternate viewpoints, and in turn gain some insight myself. Unfortunately this is not the case. We could go on playing dueling scientists, but that would be futile. The mods should close this thread.

PS for what it's worth, I have some friends who do work in the industry, and they are just as frustrated with the anti farm lobby as you Agent are with industry, and for the same reasons.

 

[herring]

I've followed this topic quite closely over the past 8 years and have just finished reading this thread. It's too bad that I am adding my thoughts at a time where this thread is becoming derailed. From an outsiders perspective, recent submissions appears to be more of a pissing match than a healthy discussion, with name calling discrediting valid points from both sides.

As a dedicated angler, fishing guide and biologist I am concerned about the degradation of the aquatic ecosystems and the decline of wild salmon. As many of you affirm (and the science), I believe that fish farms are contributing to the rapid decline in the pink salmon populations in the Broughton Archipelago. However, I agree with sockeyefry comments that there are other factors having greater impacts on salmonid populations coast wide (bigger picture) with humans being the root of all these problems.

The debate on fish farming, in my opinion, appears much like the recent debate on global warming amongst popular culture. There was really no debate amongst the scientific community but some people with invested interest played to the media and were able to drum up enough uncertainty/doubt over climate change that the general public was confused. Fortunately today the confusion is gone, and we as a society are able to move in a positive direction rather than argue whether we are 90% or 95% sure that global warming is happening and that it is the result of human activity.

In the case of fish farming, it is absolutely absurd to debate minuscule details when the unbiased science is so clear and especially when you consider what is currently at stake and at stake in the future if nothing is done. Although, with out a doubt in my mind, sea lice transfer from adult farmed fish to wild juveniles is a major problem (not discounting the science or the magnitude of its negative impact on wild populations), it is just the latest in a long list of “problems” surrounding this industry. In the mid nineties we were concerned about escapees, then it was benthic fouling, followed by drugs/steroids and colouring agents used in fish pellets. On every one of these issues there was debate, however there remains two undeniable truths, which I believe anyone with a social and environmental conscious could agree.

The first was mentioned by Chris 73 and Nimo in an earlier poste….

Chris 73 you wrote:

quote:“Step away a bit and look at the salmon situation and ask yourself who should have the burden of proof?”

Nimo you wrote:

quote:]“Go ahead and do another five years worth of studys, considerations, and reports - but not on the backs of our salmon. The burden of proof lies with the fish farmers and the government.

Empty the pens now.”

For this reason alone, I believe there should be an immediate moratorium put in place along the BC coast.

The second is just common sense; appropriate use of resources, and for this reason I am opposed to farming salmon as currently performed or in closed, land based systems as some of you propose. If one took a step back and looked at how we farmed animals on land, one would quickly realize the absurdity in farming a piscivorous fish. The world does not operate as economist would have you believe, the earth does not possess infinite resources. Taking four pounds of wild harvested fish (herring, anchovy etc) and turning it into food pellets to raise one pound of farmed raised fish is ludicrous. Human population cannot survive by eating carnivorous farmed raised animals.

Terry, I support your cause and wish you success in your endeavor to stop fish farming however I have reservations about your approach to the subject and believe others do as well. Fish farming is a heated subject where there are a lot of opinions, some well backed, some not so much. I feel that your passion and craze to see success may have rubbed potential supporters the wrong way and that the recent name calling reflects poorly on the Alliance and discredits the good work you are trying to achieve.

 

[herring]

I've followed this topic quite closely over the past 8 years and have just finished reading this thread. It's too bad that I am adding my thoughts at a time where this thread is becoming derailed. From an outsiders perspective, recent submissions appears to be more of a pissing match than a healthy discussion, with name calling discrediting valid points from both sides.

As a dedicated angler, fishing guide and biologist I am concerned about the degradation of the aquatic ecosystems and the decline of wild salmon. As many of you affirm (and the science), I believe that fish farms are contributing to the rapid decline in the pink salmon populations in the Broughton Archipelago. However, I agree with sockeyefry comments that there are other factors having greater impacts on salmonid populations coast wide (bigger picture) with humans being the root of all these problems.

The debate on fish farming, in my opinion, appears much like the recent debate on global warming amongst popular culture. There was really no debate amongst the scientific community but some people with invested interest played to the media and were able to drum up enough uncertainty/doubt over climate change that the general public was confused. Fortunately today the confusion is gone, and we as a society are able to move in a positive direction rather than argue whether we are 90% or 95% sure that global warming is happening and that it is the result of human activity.

In the case of fish farming, it is absolutely absurd to debate minuscule details when the unbiased science is so clear and especially when you consider what is currently at stake and at stake in the future if nothing is done. Although, with out a doubt in my mind, sea lice transfer from adult farmed fish to wild juveniles is a major problem (not discounting the science or the magnitude of its negative impact on wild populations), it is just the latest in a long list of “problems” surrounding this industry. In the mid nineties we were concerned about escapees, then it was benthic fouling, followed by drugs/steroids and colouring agents used in fish pellets. On every one of these issues there was debate, however there remains two undeniable truths, which I believe anyone with a social and environmental conscious could agree.

The first was mentioned by Chris 73 and Nimo in an earlier poste….

Chris 73 you wrote:

quote:“Step away a bit and look at the salmon situation and ask yourself who should have the burden of proof?”

Nimo you wrote:

quote:]“Go ahead and do another five years worth of studys, considerations, and reports - but not on the backs of our salmon. The burden of proof lies with the fish farmers and the government.

Empty the pens now.”

For this reason alone, I believe there should be an immediate moratorium put in place along the BC coast.

The second is just common sense; appropriate use of resources, and for this reason I am opposed to farming salmon as currently performed or in closed, land based systems as some of you propose. If one took a step back and looked at how we farmed animals on land, one would quickly realize the absurdity in farming a piscivorous fish. The world does not operate as economist would have you believe, the earth does not possess infinite resources. Taking four pounds of wild harvested fish (herring, anchovy etc) and turning it into food pellets to raise one pound of farmed raised fish is ludicrous. Human population cannot survive by eating carnivorous farmed raised animals.

Terry, I support your cause and wish you success in your endeavor to stop fish farming however I have reservations about your approach to the subject and believe others do as well. Fish farming is a heated subject where there are a lot of opinions, some well backed, some not so much. I feel that your passion and craze to see success may have rubbed potential supporters the wrong way and that the recent name calling reflects poorly on the Alliance and discredits the good work you are trying to achieve.

 

[chris73]

C'mon people. There wasn't any nasty name calling - we are not in kindergarten, are we? This debate is necessary and very fruitful - I and many others I know find this. It prepares our Alliance perfectly for the arguments that we will face during our upcoming battle with the fish farm industry. Thank you all for this contribution! Agentaqua, I have learnt a lot from your posts a
and literature references and I am glad you posted and I feel your frustration.

Yeah, sockeyefry, you wish that this thread is closed and your defeat disappears! Nope, will stay up and we will enjoy it for some time

After all this, my opinon hasn't changed a bit: net-pen fish farms must be relocated onto land with proper water and waste management procedures in place, and if that is accomplished (and we had an orderly party to celebrate this) the Alliance should take on the next important and changeable factors such as DFO mismanagement, habitat preservation and restoration etc...

 

[chris73]

C'mon people. There wasn't any nasty name calling - we are not in kindergarten, are we? This debate is necessary and very fruitful - I and many others I know find this. It prepares our Alliance perfectly for the arguments that we will face during our upcoming battle with the fish farm industry. Thank you all for this contribution! Agentaqua, I have learnt a lot from your posts a
and literature references and I am glad you posted and I feel your frustration.

Yeah, sockeyefry, you wish that this thread is closed and your defeat disappears! Nope, will stay up and we will enjoy it for some time

After all this, my opinon hasn't changed a bit: net-pen fish farms must be relocated onto land with proper water and waste management procedures in place, and if that is accomplished (and we had an orderly party to celebrate this) the Alliance should take on the next important and changeable factors such as DFO mismanagement, habitat preservation and restoration etc...

 

[agentaqua]

Just wanted to say thanks for being mature and understanding about the passion and intent, sockeyefry. Great reply. It's too bad that none of the points I raised were addressed though.

Also, thanks for the insightful, intelligent and eloquent replies herring and chris73.