alex morton

[ClayoquotKid]

Well that's a heck of a comeback.....


http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/Exhibits.php

Anymore Jaundice salmon at your indian farm location? or is it still empty.
Glad someone over there wanted to find out what was going on when they sent samples to Dr. Kristy.
To bad the "Wall of Doubt" came down went the results were made known.
Oh yea you may have the virus but you don't have the disease as per DFO.
And just for good measure if you can replicate the virus from the samples you don't have the virus as per DFO.
Kind of like shipping a live duck form here to Ottowa in a sealed contaner with an ice pack.
Once there the DNA confirms it's a duck. The visual inspection confirms its a duck.
But wait lets put it in a petri dish and see if it replicates.... no... must not be a duck.

Segments of a virus were found using a PCR method incorporating multiple primers - the same results were also found in wild fish samples from the early 80's, meaning whatever it was, it preceded modern salmon farming.

"Jaundice" salmon have been seen in the wild since the 60's in Sockeye, Chum and Pink - Keep in mind Creative farms indigenous Chinook.

 

[GDW]

You pro farm guys keep asking everyone to post their credentials as if it matters instead of answering simple questions or posting your own peer reviewed articles to support your stance on the issue.

These are the citizens of British Columbia that's all that matters. Their opinions are backed by peer reviewed science and common sense. I dont see much of that from the pro farm industry.

The people with credentials doing the work don't have time to come here and argue with you that's exactly what you'd want. Keep the scientists occupied with silly online arguments instead of doing the actual research that fish farms and government should have done long long ago.

But go stand back put your hands in the air and keep saying there is no proof so its all good. The only reason there isn't "proof" beyond a reasonable doubt is because the industry and government doesn't want anyone to have a close look. You all know what will be found common sense tells you that.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

This thread is titled "alex morton"

What better place to come and ask questions about Alexandra Morton?

You guys can praise her virtues and fawn over her accolades and accomplishments and those who see her in a different light can put forward their thoughts, questions and concerns.

She repeatedly said there were 7 labs finding segements - my count has not gotten past, at best, 5.

Why is that a big deal?

Well it seems to follow a trend of making unsupported, or entirely incorrect statements and never providing an explanation, or correction.

Here's a good example: http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/01/18/alexandra-mortons-furunculosis-fable/

I'm not here trying to dispute her use of data, or rebutting her findings (of the papers she has co-authored) - there are qualified people out there who have and continue to do that.

All I am saying is that there is a lot that does not add up on her end, she has made statements that are clearly wrong and yet she continues to misprepresent the science involved (possibly due to her lack of training) in her campaign to end salmon farming in BC. (Just in BC mind you, not Washington State, or not anything to do with the 6 billion cultured salmon smolts that are raised in net pens in Alaska and released to compete with wild stocks)

 

[Birdsnest]

It seems only fair for others to post their credentials if they are going to hold ours against us. Dont worry about it GDW nobody has, and nobody will(except for highfive) its a non issue really other than the fact pretty much nobody apposing salmon farming on this site ever tells us what they do. Not even in the what do you do thread recently posted. I respect their privacy so I am not forcing the issue just pointing out that if they are qualified to have an opinion they might state so to add weight to their posts. They wont, I am convinced of that. IT is what it is.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

It seems only fair for others to post their credentials if they are going to hold ours against us. Dont worry about it GDW nobody has, and nobody will(except for highfive) its a non issue really other than the fact pretty much nobody apposing salmon farming on this site ever tells us what they do. Not even in the what do you do thread recently posted. I respect their privacy so I am not forcing the issue just pointing out that if they are qualified to have an opinion they might state so to add weight to their posts. They wont, I am convinced of that. IT is what it is.

I had no problem giving my academic pedigree when asked, I am not anonymous on here (especially recently) and I stand behind what I say and the questions I ask.

The ridiculous part IMHO is where the matter of credentials can be swung around and then the fact that Morton has absolutlely no training whatsoever in virology, or anything to do with fish health is completely ignored.

 

[GDW]

Dont you worry I'm sure once Alex is convinced her work in BC is done she will help organizations in Washington state to ensure either A) the salmon farms that exist pose minimal risk or B) that they are removed.

She can't tackle the whole worlds problems at once let her finish the work she is doing here then see where it leads. I'm sure she has concerns about what's going on in other areas of the world but she is only one person and has a big enough fight on her hands in her own back yard.

Again the "credentials" of other posters doesn't matter these are citizens of BC and as a citizen they have a right to opinions on what happens in or to their province. If you've got a garbage heap on your lawn you don't need to get a degree in waste management before you take the rotting pile of waste to the dump.

 

[jeffywestcoast]

Im sorry i didn't read qualified marine aquaculture tech only need comment on this thread at the top,The topic States :Alex morton, As a Canadian i am damn well entitled to my opinion of her.If you must know I work as a machine operator in the oilfield, Also a certified crane operator. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out all you had to do was read my profile.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Dont you worry I'm sure once Alex is convinced her work in BC is done she will help organizations in Washington state to ensure either A) the salmon farms that exist pose minimal risk or B) that they are removed.

She can't tackle the whole worlds problems at once let her finish the work she is doing here then see where it leads. I'm sure she has concerns about what's going on in other areas of the world but she is only one person and has a big enough fight on her hands in her own back yard.

Again the "credentials" of other posters doesn't matter these are citizens of BC and as a citizen they have a right to opinions on what happens in or to their province. If you've got a garbage heap on your lawn you don't need to get a degree in waste management before you take the rotting pile of waste to the dump.

So, if she got rid of the farms in B.C., or was convinced they posed minimal risk - you think she would go after the ones in her home country of America?

She doesn't seem too concerned about any of the other impacts to wild salmon - just salmon farms in B.C. around her chosen residence.

What would be next?

It's a really good question actually.

 

[Birdsnest]

If she was so truly a salmon warrior I do not think it would take allot more effort for her to include washington but she suspiciously does not. Surely charley and reelfast as resident americans would be eager to assist her there but they seem strangely distracted by bc when really the exact same issues exist there in there own back yard.

Again the "credentials" of other posters doesn't matter these are citizens of BC and as a citizen they have a right to opinions on what happens in or to their province. If you've got a garbage heap on your lawn you don't need to get a degree in waste management before you take the rotting pile of waste to the dump.

So GDW, charlie and reelfast are americans on a canadian forum. Are you not accepting their opinions now because of that?

 

[Birdsnest]

Im sorry i didn't read qualified marine aquaculture tech only need comment on this thread at the top,The topic States :Alex morton, As a Canadian i am damn well entitled to my opinion of her.If you must know I work as a machine operator in the oilfield, Also a certified crane operator. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out all you had to do was read my profile.

I think it would be a bit rude of me to call you out on your employment on this thread so It is nicer if you volunteer it according to the topic. Thats just me. Thats why I am asking?

 

[Birdsnest]

So, if she got rid of the farms in B.C., or was convinced they posed minimal risk - you think she would go after the ones in her home country of America?

She doesn't seem too concerned about any of the other impacts to wild salmon - just salmon farms in B.C. around her chosen residence.

What would be next?

It's a really good question actually.

Ya, A really good question. Strictly salmon farming? Salmon Warrior? I think that if she touched on any other destructive activities such as logging, gill netting, over fishing, sport fishing, Alaskan dragnet fishing, and a long list of other issues she would have no support. It really is the perfect mechanism if your only purpose is to get rid of salmon farms. Hard to include actually proven causes for salmon declines without keeping support against salmon farms. This is a major flaw in her title of salmon warrior. It very suspicious to me.

 

[GLG]

Boy you two have sure reached a new low.
Going from an attack of her credentials to an attack of her character in just a few posts.
Sad really because we do care what happens to you fellas when your sunset industry comes to a close.
As a society we are trying to move you on to land to help the ocean.
Not to punish you for your occupation.

 

[Birdsnest]

you'll have to point out the attack on her character, I just don't see it.
Since you seem to be speaking for the "group" on that side of the fence I would suggest that you get a bit organized because while the statement that you care about us is sweet and nice its hard to grasp that it is a group feeling seeing how I get slandered here. You know the get lost, uneducated, scab money, I know your ip address. I do believe that some here truly feel concern for us but as far that being a group feeling you lost me long ago on that one.
What makes you think that all the issues the antis use against salmon farming are going to go away with closed containment. It another bowl of double standards from the antis where is is unacceptable in open pens but acceptable in closed containment.

 

[jeffywestcoast]

i think with the salmon farms on shore there would be less chance of infecting wild salmon swimming by no? Im sure as a sports fisherman you would like nothing more for the salmon of British Columbia to possibly return to healthier levels no? Maybe if the fishfarms all move on to land for 20 years and wild salmon do not return to more of a sustainable level then we can rule them out. Until then i am not convinced they are not harming wild salmon stocks. But i am not that edumacated on the subject and surely have lots of booklearning to do just so you know i have been to a netpen fishfarm and realize it is tough work on the easiest days bud. nobody ever said that was an easy job .also i dont think you are uneducated at all, im sure you have a ton of knowledge in your field,i never said you were a scab either and as for a the ip adress threat..you were probably dealing with one of these guys pictured bellow.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

LOL! Jeffy that one made my day!

Yes, farms on land would reduce the interaction between farmed and wild - but it would come with its own set of impacts.

Some people think there is evidence enough to justify this move, others do not.

The same premise could be applied to fishing pressure - there would never be, IMHO, a situation where an industry which has not been shown to impact wild stocks on a population level would be removed while people still actively killed the species of concern.

In the meantime, the fish keep coming back - in droves in some areas and in trickles in others - regardless of whether aquaculture is present in the area or not.

 

[Seafever]

If people knew what was in a farmed salmon they'd never eat one again.

I'm happy to say that I've never eaten one....and never will....

 

[GLG]

Segments of a virus were found using a PCR method incorporating multiple primers - the same results were also found in wild fish samples from the early 80's, meaning whatever it was, it preceded modern salmon farming.

"Jaundice" salmon have been seen in the wild since the 60's in Sockeye, Chum and Pink - Keep in mind Creative farms indigenous Chinook.

Not true there Ckid... ISAv 8 is from Norway and was found in your farms along with other segments.
Those other segments clearly need more investigation.
Did you not look at the excel spreadsheet.
Regardless I guess it's not there because you can't culture it right?
And you did not answer my question.... Is your Indian Farm location still empty?

Keep in mind Creative farms indigenous Chinook.

Why would you even bring this up? Are you trying to tell us something here?

 

[Birdsnest]

i think with the salmon farms on shore there would be less chance of infecting wild salmon swimming by no?

Obviously yes and both ways too but you have to get past the rhetoric about salmon farming viruses and diseases. The impression the antis want you to believe is that salmon farms are teaming with viruses, pathogens and disease and for this reason are on a constant course of medications. They are not. In fact some farming companies use no antibiotics and have been doing so for many years and still having mortality's less than 10 % over a 2 year span when the fish are ready for harvest. It is not unusual for farming companies that will use antibiotics to have cycles/sites that never use antibiotics for it never became necessary. They do this and still manage to have very low mortalities. If salmon farms were so infected with the deadliest of pathogens how is this posable. This on top of the fact that altantic salmon are very susceptible to pacific viruses such as IHN and ISA and HSMI. This is not an indication of a disease problem. Pacific salmon are very strong. Look how they have succeeded in the great lakes.
It would be interesting to go to europe and test for IHN and I bet they might find it or parts of it in their local version of it. Could they still call it canadian IHN. I guess they could since it was found here first but it doesn't mean that it came from here last week or within the last 30 years. What i am getting at is it appears that all the oceans share similar viruses as well the same way as there are halibut in many oceans that are fairly similar but different. This is all very new information so it has been easy for this information to be manipulated or pre-preceved and a tool against salmon farms.

Sorry if I am grouping you in with the majority of the apposed group. If you have followed the discussion here over the last couple of years you would see the nature of those guys.

The last part of your post is very entertaining. Thanks for that.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Not true there Ckid... ISAv 8 is from Norway and was found in your farms along with other segments.
Those other segments clearly need more investigation.
Did you not look at the excel spreadsheet.
Regardless I guess it's not there because you can't culture it right?
And you did not answer my question.... Is your Indian Farm location still empty?


Why would you even bring this up? Are you trying to tell us something here?

First off - I don't work for Creative.

If you look at Exhibit 2054 you will see the prevalence of those same segments in wild fish from 1980 all over the province.

It would seem to me that either this is something similar to the ISAv found in the Atlantic, which is endemic to the Pacific (and not killing fish), or her assays were picking up something that wasn't really there - as far as I know it was quite a sensitive testing method that relied on amplification - but I'm not a PCR expert. (Those were at the Cohen Commission and were all unable to come to the conclusion that it was actually ISAv)

My point about them farming indigenous Chinook is that they would be carrying whatever is natural to the coast - they did not originate elsewhere.

Also, the fact that over 5000 farmed Atlantics have been tested over the years for ISAv in combination with the roughly 4100 wild salmon tested last year by CFIA make it pretty clear to anyone who isn't hellbent on believing Morton's fearmongering fairytales that ISAv is not present on the coast.

 

[Englishman]

Yup, this is what happens when all the work put forward by an activist and her accredited cohorts meets the larger world of academia and natural science - they are rebutted and dismissed.

This is a crock CK. Morton is member of academia and her papers she has co-written with other accredited scientists are peer reviewed by those in academia. There are no rebuttals and dismissals of those papers as you claim. They were published in reputable journals. Once again you never supply any links to scientific papers supporting your false statements.

Then, supporters like you guys are left with the inevitable response of blaming Harper and comparing aquaculture to the tobacco industry.

You are being deliberately obtuse by confusing two issues. This is your stock –in-trade isn’t it? No one is comparing the tobacco industry with your industry in terms of the human suffering and misery it created and defended, even though there are health issue with salmon feedlot products. We are talking about the denial, obfuscation, mis-representations and character assassination METHODS used by the tobacco industry in an attempt to discredit whistle blowers and opponents.
These METHODS are very well demonstrated by the following quotes from you which I reject and rebut completely.

So where is Morton qualified in any way to speculate on fish pathology, virology or any of the other topics she routinely bloviates about?

As far as I can tell the only reason she had her name on any of those papers is because she went out and caught the fish.

CK your ignorance of how science works is showing again. Morton did not write those papers single- handedly. She collaborated with other qualified scientists in various fields to produce those papers AND those papers were peer reviewed by other scientists BEFORE being accepted for publishing. That is why all the knowledgeable people on here accept those results. Your simple minded PR statements go through no such scrutiny.

That is not 7 different labs.

So now it comes down to the number of labs. How childish.!How about actually looking at what a number of labs actually found and doing some more research in those areas? Again these are science labs run by qualified people. I believe them and not the unethical corporate interest that you so gleefully support to your great shame and discredit.

How much of the funding she has recieved has gone to enhancement or habitat restoration? Things that would actually benefit wild salmon?

Trying to suggest money should spent elsewhere is a diversionary tactic and value judgement that has no relevance to this discussion.

How much has gone towards testing? (If you have more than 10 samples you can get them tested for 5 targets for less than $150 - Shipping would be extra, so depending on where they go it might cost a few bucks) [

How much money has been spent will be known in due time. Where you get your numbers from I don’t know (you NEVER publish your sources) but I doubt DNA sequencing can be done for $150.

Where are all the lab reports? Shouldn't she have something to show her supporters for all the money they have donated? [

Ignorance of science again. The process of gathering data, writing papers and having them peer reviewed and published takes many months and sometimes a year or two! Data will be forthcoming, I have no doubt although the Government and your industry is doing its best to block that effort by shutting down accredited labs and firing or muzzling scientists.

How much has gone towards her film and road-show? ( I heard that Twyla got $10,000 for the 'documentary') She sure travels a lot... [

That is a mean and nasty insinuation. Typical of you and your industry. Not even worth talking to you on this contemptible attack.

HIt almost seems like an enviro-ponzi scheme - Get enough to raise the fear level to a point where people will open their wallets enough to elevate the propaganda to a higher level with a film and then use the funds recieved to promote the film and raise more funds to do more promotion...

There are cynics on both sides of the fence.

Now you are getting crazy. Are you going to accuse Morton of being an international arms dealer next! Ponzi scheme indeed - gimme a break. CK sometimes you are totally ridiculous. More so recently.

This thread is titled "alex morton"

What better place to come and ask questions about Alexandra Morton?

You guys can praise her virtues and fawn over her accolades and accomplishments and those who see her in a different light can put forward their thoughts, questions and concerns. .

So you treat the title as your green light to attack her credentials and integrity. The “questions” you ask are all about her personally and not about the proven science which she and many other have published.
You are using these despicable tactics because you cannot understand and have no defence against the science which exposes your fabrications.

She repeatedly said there were 7 labs finding segements - my count has not gotten past, at best, 5.
Why is that a big deal?

And you cannot see why the actual number is unimportant and the results those labs got is in fact the real issue. THAT is the big deal. Maybe you can but you keep focusing on irrelevant details to obscure and raise doubt. Typical tobacco industry- like tactics!

Well it seems to follow a trend of making unsupported, or entirely incorrect statements and never providing an explanation, or correction.

Very strange that comment coming form you CK who NEVER posts any scientific support for your position and your completely incorrect statements!

I'm not here trying to dispute her use of data, or rebutting her findings (of the papers she has co-authored) - there are qualified people out there who have and continue to do that.

Nope once again no support for this false statement. Where are the rebuttals of her and her co-workers’ findings? Where are the papers proving all the past data conclusion from Morton and many other scientists wrong and that all is well with the open net pen feed lot industry?

All I am saying is that there is a lot that does not add up on her end, she has made statements that are clearly wrong and yet she continues to misprepresent the science involved (possibly due to her lack of training) in her campaign to end salmon farming in BC. (Just in BC mind you, not Washington State, or not anything to do with the 6 billion cultured salmon smolts that are raised in net pens in Alaska and released to compete with wild stocks)

You of all people CK are not fit to judge that it “does not add up”. And you keep ignoring the fact that many other scientists besides Morton have published data that documents severe problems with your industry. You keep attacking her because she is in the public eye, exposes your industry for what it is, and because you are that kind of person.

I had no problem giving my academic pedigree when asked, I am not anonymous on here (especially recently) and I stand behind what I say and the questions I ask.

And I and many hundreds of scientists and thousands of citizens stand by what we say and the criticisms we have of your terrible industry.

The ridiculous part IMHO is where the matter of credentials can be swung around and then the fact that Morton has absolutlely no training whatsoever in virology, or anything to do with fish health is completely ignored.

The ridiculous part IMHO is you keep using this credentials issue to attack Morton, when SHE DID NOT WORK ALONE and there are many other scientists who who have published papers on the ecological and environmental effects of your industry. In making your false and disrespectful claims you are attacking all of science and the research and publishing process because you are attacking everyone associated with it. Your look totally ignorant and foolish doing that CK.

Here is just one paper from that big list I posted. It is not by Morton. It was published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society, one of the most prestigious science journals existing in the UK.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1672/3385.short
So go ahead and enlighten us CK on where the actual science is wrong. Where is the rebuttal of the actual data and conclusions of this paper and where/when was it published. You really cannot can you….but that won’t stop you going into tobacco industry mode with some sort or obfuscation or denial.

You are really exposed for what you are by your own posts on here CK.