Electoral Reform Referendum

How will you vote?

  • I am in favour

    Votes: 30 34.5%
  • I am against it

    Votes: 56 64.4%
  • I don't plan to vote

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    87
"We know many large Unions are actively lobbying their members to follow the unions doctrine"
Which large Unions are lobbying? What is their doctrine? Bill Tielmann is big in the FPTP camp and last time I checked an NDP supporter. Do you think that all Union Members vote like a flock of sheep?
BCGEU, Teachers, Transit to name three! I know that because I know members in these three. Bill Tielman is also a former NDP Strategist, but not sure he’s in a union, so not sure what point you’re trying to make? All this info is available if you do a little research.
But back to the original question where did I say anything about the Independant Contractors court challenge?
 
BCGEU, Teachers, Transit to name three! I know that because I know members in these three. Bill Tielman is also a former NDP Strategist, but not sure he’s in a union, so not sure what point you’re trying to make? All this info is available if you do a little research.
But back to the original question where did I say anything about the Independant Contractors court challenge?
My wife is a teacher and shop steward has not been contacted by the Union to tell her how to tell the rest of her co-workers how to follow the Union's doctrine and the point of the Independant Contractors Association is that they are actively spouting the Big Money doctrine to keep less than 40% of the people that vote give 100% of the power (FPTP) to one party and their Party doctrine which all their elected MLA's will dutifully expouse like trained seals and thats why a lot of people specially younger people don't vote.
 
My wife is a teacher and shop steward has not been contacted by the Union to tell her how to tell the rest of her co-workers how to follow the Union's doctrine and the point of the Independant Contractors Association is that they are actively spouting the Big Money doctrine to keep less than 40% of the people that vote give 100% of the power (FPTP) to one party and their Party doctrine which all their elected MLA's will dutifully expouse like trained seals and thats why a lot of people specially younger people don't vote.
This sentence is difficult to interpret but if people want to self-select out of voting I think that's great. The people who don't vote are doing us all a favour by letting motivated people with a stake in the outcome make the decisions.
 
Actually Horgan tried to point out that in a PR system you tend to work collaboatively with other groups instead of just interupting the other side like the Liberal whiner did last night.
i found them both equally useless and full of ****. Horgan’s clearly just worried about his job and does anything to stay in power for a bit longer. People of this province deserve better than these clown politicians.

BTW, why the heck did these two decide to have a debate on the electoral system? This isn’t about the rulling party and the opposition. This is a broader and more foundational issue. This isn’t really a Libs vs NDP or Greens argument.
 
My wife is a teacher and shop steward has not been contacted by the Union to tell her how to tell the rest of her co-workers how to follow the Union's doctrine and the point of the Independant Contractors Association is that they are actively spouting the Big Money doctrine to keep less than 40% of the people that vote give 100% of the power (FPTP) to one party and their Party doctrine which all their elected MLA's will dutifully expouse like trained seals and thats why a lot of people specially younger people don't vote.
As far as the Teachers Union goes this might help. Pretty clear in this link wouldn’t you say.

https://bctf.ca/AdvocacyAndAction.aspx?id=5356
 
I don’t think a voting system alone can be blamed for extreme parties, the fact they exist at all says a lot about the state of society. We have only to look to our neighbors to the south and the fact that, despite their two-party system, they elected an openly racist and sexist president.

The prevalence of fear-based politics and campaigns that seek to divide rather than bring constituents together is as much, or more, to blame for extreme political parties being able to gain support.

Cheers!

Ukee
 
Even our friends to the south see FPTP as a threat to their democracy and are starting a conversation on how to fix it. This is from yesterdays New York Times editorial board. They are suggesting to move to PR for their Congress. Yet some think we should look under our bed to see if there is a communist there just to scare us away from making progress.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/10/opinion/house-representatives-size-multi-member.html
We’ve had a Communist Party and Candidates for how many decades? Not sure why anyone would have to look under their bed to find one, let alone be scared of one?
 
We’ve had a Communist Party and Candidates for how many decades? Not sure why anyone would have to look under their bed to find one, let alone be scared of one?
You should be directing that question to Tristin Hopper at the National Post for his headline on the link the Nog gave us to read. Classic FUD to setup his arguments. Prime the pump and stir it up.
 
 
This election is not about PR vs FPTP. It is about providing a dogs breakfast of 3 options with no details and accepting that the NDP/Green majority will give us a non partisan system AFTER the election. Voting no is not a vote that FPTP is better, its a vote that this undemocratic partisan process for PR needs to be rejected. This is the third PR vote, there will be another, and next time maybe it will be something that can be voted for as a well thought out PR system has some advantages. The Vancouver Sun sums up the issue well when describing the debate:

"It was a devastatingly simple but effective argument, because Horgan can’t explain the three systems in short and simple terms. Almost nobody can. Two are not in use anywhere in the world. And the third, mixed member proportional, has so many important details left undecided — the format of party lists, what voters will actually be voting upon, and the structure of ridings — to be near-impossible to explain in any detailed way. "
 
You should be directing that question to Tristin Hopper at the National Post for his headline on the link the Nog gave us to read. Classic FUD to setup his arguments. Prime the pump and stir it up.
Fear Mongering, about Fear Mongering. It’s a very childlike tactic that keeps being used by PR leaders and their disciples to avoid tough questions.Don’t question PR, don’t mention it’s failures or faults, it’s just Fear Mongering. If anything negative is mentioned about PR,deflect to Fear Mongering, never face facts, never directly answer.

We should all be directing our questions towards our government as to how PR will work rather than waste time watching slick videos that take aim at those who question it. Truth is though the government has been asked how PR will work in BC, nowhere else just BC, over and over and over again, but simply can’t answer. Trust us and take a Leap of Faith! No thanks!
 
Everyone I have talked to that voted for PR has done so for MMP. Their reasoning is that it’s a tested system.

Kinda sad because RUP is also a combo of Two tested system but the information giving out makes it seem like MMP is the only tested one.

This process has been botched. Still on the fence and have not voted. Trying to decide now if MMP is something I can live with.
 
Everyone I have talked to that voted for PR has done so for MMP. Their reasoning is that it’s a tested system.

Kinda sad because RUP is also a combo of Two tested system but the information giving out makes it seem like MMP is the only tested one.

This process has been botched. Still on the fence and have not voted. Trying to decide now if MMP is something I can live with.
RUP works for me. Much of my decision was based on the excellent info that people posted on this thread. Thank you.
 
Fear Mongering, about Fear Mongering. It’s a very childlike tactic that keeps being used by PR leaders and their disciples to avoid tough questions.Don’t question PR, don’t mention it’s failures or faults, it’s just Fear Mongering. If anything negative is mentioned about PR,deflect to Fear Mongering, never face facts, never directly answer.

We should all be directing our questions towards our government as to how PR will work rather than waste time watching slick videos that take aim at those who question it. Truth is though the government has been asked how PR will work in BC, nowhere else just BC, over and over and over again, but simply can’t answer. Trust us and take a Leap of Faith! No thanks!

I expected something better than that from you Ziggy. Being accused of a "childlike tactic" and your logic that pointing out "Fear Mongering" is the same as fear mongering makes no sense. It's like me pointing out a salmon in a stream and somehow that makes me a salmon.

To answer your question as to how PR systems work there has been tons of information on the net as to how it works. I and others have posted links explaining it so those that are interested could find out more. In fact Elections BC has a good website that anyone can read that goes to the basics of how each works.

Public consultations on this referendum were done and the majority spoke as to how they wanted it.

The sticking point seems to be about the open/closed list and it would seem that now we have consensus from all the major parties that they prefer an open list. No more leaders picking who should run in what riding, let the riding decide. It took awhile for the liberals to agree to that even though they were the ones pointing out that this was a flaw. It was a show stopper for them. You would think now that this point has been made that they would go forward and use bottom up (open list) picking of a candidate for the election in Nanaimo. Didn't happen now did it. So much for that point.

I'm so tired of this business as usual in our politics. I'm tired of having swing ridings that control the whole province. Yes I live in one and it just so happens that 9 votes was the difference between a Liberal or an NDP government. That's a fact and there is no way around that. I wonder how many had to vote for someone they don't like so that someone they like even less didn't get elected. Is that what we have come to in our democracy? We can do better.
 
This election is not about PR vs FPTP. It is about providing a dogs breakfast of 3 options with no details and accepting that the NDP/Green majority will give us a non partisan system AFTER the election. Voting no is not a vote that FPTP is better, its a vote that this undemocratic partisan process for PR needs to be rejected. This is the third PR vote, there will be another, and next time maybe it will be something that can be voted for as a well thought out PR system has some advantages. The Vancouver Sun sums up the issue well when describing the debate:

"It was a devastatingly simple but effective argument, because Horgan can’t explain the three systems in short and simple terms. Almost nobody can. Two are not in use anywhere in the world. And the third, mixed member proportional, has so many important details left undecided — the format of party lists, what voters will actually be voting upon, and the structure of ridings — to be near-impossible to explain in any detailed way. "
I disagree that this referendum is not about a choice between PR and FPTP. It's on the ballot last time I checked.:eek:
 
I expected something better than that from you Ziggy. Being accused of a "childlike tactic" and your logic that pointing out "Fear Mongering" is the same as fear mongering makes no sense. It's like me pointing out a salmon in a stream and somehow that makes me a salmon.

To answer your question as to how PR systems work there has been tons of information on the net as to how it works. I and others have posted links explaining it so those that are interested could find out more. In fact Elections BC has a good website that anyone can read that goes to the basics of how each works.

Public consultations on this referendum were done and the majority spoke as to how they wanted it.

The sticking point seems to be about the open/closed list and it would seem that now we have consensus from all the major parties that they prefer an open list. No more leaders picking who should run in what riding, let the riding decide. It took awhile for the liberals to agree to that even though they were the ones pointing out that this was a flaw. It was a show stopper for them. You would think now that this point has been made that they would go forward and use bottom up (open list) picking of a candidate for the election in Nanaimo. Didn't happen now did it. So much for that point.

I'm so tired of this business as usual in our politics. I'm tired of having swing ridings that control the whole province. Yes I live in one and it just so happens that 9 votes was the difference between a Liberal or an NDP government. That's a fact and there is no way around that. I wonder how many had to vote for someone they don't like so that someone they like even less didn't get elected. Is that what we have come to in our democracy? We can do better.
It was not aimed at you personally, just the tactic of the PR campaign labeling anyone who has the audacity to point out the flaws of PR as a Fear Mongerer, that form of unsubstantiated name calling seems very childish to me. If they are spreading untruths call them out on it, but don’t stoop to unfounded generalizations.Funny how the labeling of Fear Mongering and more recently “anyone voting against PR is a racist and against diversity “ have come from the PR side, clearly they haven’t looked at the members of the current Legislature. It’s a blatant attempt to paint one side as a booger man and attempt to make this an emotional argument rather than an intellectual one. Guess it says more about the supporters than the people they are trying to label and discredit.

There is much information available on how PR works, in other countries, sadly our systems offered have yet to be defined, but will be after the fact at some point. I don’t know how anyone can honestly claim to know how it will work here, because of that. Make no mistake the Parliamentary Committee proposed to finesse the details, made up of the Greens, Liberals and NDP will not be non partisan. Remember Weaver wanted PR Legislated as opposed to going to a Referendum, so it isn’t Rocket Science to see he wants this and the associated power it brings desperately.
 
From the Vancouver Sun
Douglas Todd: Five empirical reasons to lean to pro-rep
Pro rep is strong in five areas: Representing the population, reducing government debt, producing more benevolent societies, creating stable governments and combating extremism.

Maybe academics aren’t collectively the sexiest bunch. And it’s true that policy wonks can’t compete with movie or sports stars for the spotlight. Nevertheless, opinion polls consistently show that the public places some trust in professors.

So why are scholars’ studies too often ignored in B.C.’s referendum over proportional representation?

Researchers are often going through data to compare nations that use some form of proportional representation to those that use versions of the first-past-the-post system, such as B.C. and Canada.

Their systematic analyses of government performances are more convincing than the cherry-picked anecdotes most of us trot out to stoke either fear of or utopian thinking about one electoral system over another.

Scholars have carefully developed many empirical systems, including international indexes, to measure how countries perform in regards to economics, the environment, individual freedoms, taxation, minority rights, gender equality and governance.

Professors have crunched the data to reach conclusions about how first-past-the-post electoral systems (often called majoritarian) compare with proportional representation voting systems (often called consensual), which are more likely to lead to coalition governments.

It turns out proportional representation is strong in at least five areas: Representing the diversity of the population (including women and minorities), producing more benevolent societies, reducing government debt, creating stable governments and combating extremism.

The most renowned specialist on pro-rep is Arend Lijphart, a political scientist at the University of California, San Diego, known for his book Patterns of Democracy, which closely compares 36 democracies.

Lijphart’s pioneering research has been followed by many, who have generally concluded pro-rep leads to at least five improvements:

Kinder, gentler societies

Lijphart adapted a phrase made famous in 1988 by George W. Bush: “I want a kinder, gentler nation,” to illustrate that compassionate nations are less likely to arise out of majoritarian systems, like that of the U.S., and more likely in pro-rep nations.

“Consensus democracies demonstrate kinder and gentler qualities in the following ways: They are more likely to be welfare states; they have a better record with regard to protection of the environment; they put fewer people in prison and are less likely to use the death penalty,” Lipjhart writes. “Consensus democracies in the developed world are also more generous with their economic assistance to developing nations.”

More responsible economic policy

Even though most critics of proportional representation concede coalition governments will lead to fairer societies, they are quick to say consensus governments are inclined to spend more.

The Fraser Institute’s Herb Grubel said in a recent opinion piece in The Vancouver Sun that spending as a percentage of national income in recent years has been 2.3 per cent for first-past-the-post countries and 2.9 per cent for those using proportional representation.

But that’s not the whole economic story. In his book, How Diversity Can Improve Policy Making, University of Michigan prof Salomon Orellana maintains regions with pro-rep are more fiscally responsible — they build up more budget surpluses and run fewer deficits.

Consensus societies are also more equitable, since they are more likely to redistribute wealth. Scholars such as Norway’s Carl Henrik Knutsen, author of Which Democracies Prosper?, even argue that countries with proportional representation produce stronger economic growth.

More minority representation

Proportional representation systems are called such because they are designed to better “represent” the wishes of more diverse voters.

Pro-rep typically elects more women, minorities and Indigenous people, show the trans-national studies that have looked at consensus democracies in Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, Iceland, Spain, Paraguay, Chile, Fiji, Australia and New Zealand, among others.

Orellana also found consensus democracies have greater gender equality, more openness to homosexuality, divorce and assisted suicide and more tolerance of so-called “out groups,” Majoritarian governments, Orellana found, rank 44 per cent lower on formal “prejudice scales.”

More stable governments

Using global indexes created by the World Bank, the Brookings Institute and other organizations, Lijphart was unable to positively prove consensus democracies are better at all aspects of government.

But Lijphart did come to a firm negative conclusion about majoritarian democracies, saying “They are clearly not superior to consensus democracies in providing good governance, managing the economy and maintaining civil peace.”

First-past-the-post elections typically create systems with two dominant parties, which fight to obtain more than 40 per cent of votes so they can dominate government. Proportional voting, on the other hand, tends to lead to coalitions between parties that have to share power and cooperate.

A major drawback of majoritarian governments is “policy lurch,” when newly elected parties summarily dismantle their opponents’ legislation. But while some say majority governments can make quicker, bolder decisions, Lijphart is among the scholars who have provided evidence that consensus governments often make slower choices that better stand the test of time.

Combating extremism

A central accusation made by B.C. opponents of proportional representation is that it will lead to more extremism. Some anti-pro-rep ads feature neo-Nazis and foreboding jackboot military parades

But fears about extremism have little basis in empirical evidence. Democracies whose governments are based on consensus, including in Africa and Asia, are less likely to be violent, according to researchers Wolf Linder, Bingham Powell and others.

Opponents have also warned pro-rep could lead to more people wanting to restrict immigration rates. But Orellano found “citizens in countries with proportional systems are not more likely to hold anti-immigrant views.”

Indeed, Orellano found that under consensus governments there is less pandering to single-issue groups and to the moneyed interests of the elite.

The additional good news is it’s not only politicians who become more conciliatory and sophisticated under consensus political systems. So do the media.

Judy McGregor and Janine Hayward have found in studies in New Zealand and elsewhere that the media move away from “horse-race” political reporting when there is a shift to consensus government. Under majoritarian governments, media outlets tend to focus on political manoeuvring. But with consensus governments, more journalists put their focus on interpreting the pros and cons of actual policies.

That alone would be refreshing.

dtodd@postmedia.com

@douglastodd
 
From the Vancouver Sun
Douglas Todd: Five empirical reasons to lean to pro-rep
Pro rep is strong in five areas: Representing the population, reducing government debt, producing more benevolent societies, creating stable governments and combating extremism.

Maybe academics aren’t collectively the sexiest bunch. And it’s true that policy wonks can’t compete with movie or sports stars for the spotlight. Nevertheless, opinion polls consistently show that the public places some trust in professors.

So why are scholars’ studies too often ignored in B.C.’s referendum over proportional representation?

Researchers are often going through data to compare nations that use some form of proportional representation to those that use versions of the first-past-the-post system, such as B.C. and Canada.

Their systematic analyses of government performances are more convincing than the cherry-picked anecdotes most of us trot out to stoke either fear of or utopian thinking about one electoral system over another.

Scholars have carefully developed many empirical systems, including international indexes, to measure how countries perform in regards to economics, the environment, individual freedoms, taxation, minority rights, gender equality and governance.

Professors have crunched the data to reach conclusions about how first-past-the-post electoral systems (often called majoritarian) compare with proportional representation voting systems (often called consensual), which are more likely to lead to coalition governments.

It turns out proportional representation is strong in at least five areas: Representing the diversity of the population (including women and minorities), producing more benevolent societies, reducing government debt, creating stable governments and combating extremism.

The most renowned specialist on pro-rep is Arend Lijphart, a political scientist at the University of California, San Diego, known for his book Patterns of Democracy, which closely compares 36 democracies.

Lijphart’s pioneering research has been followed by many, who have generally concluded pro-rep leads to at least five improvements:

Kinder, gentler societies

Lijphart adapted a phrase made famous in 1988 by George W. Bush: “I want a kinder, gentler nation,” to illustrate that compassionate nations are less likely to arise out of majoritarian systems, like that of the U.S., and more likely in pro-rep nations.

“Consensus democracies demonstrate kinder and gentler qualities in the following ways: They are more likely to be welfare states; they have a better record with regard to protection of the environment; they put fewer people in prison and are less likely to use the death penalty,” Lipjhart writes. “Consensus democracies in the developed world are also more generous with their economic assistance to developing nations.”

More responsible economic policy

Even though most critics of proportional representation concede coalition governments will lead to fairer societies, they are quick to say consensus governments are inclined to spend more.

The Fraser Institute’s Herb Grubel said in a recent opinion piece in The Vancouver Sun that spending as a percentage of national income in recent years has been 2.3 per cent for first-past-the-post countries and 2.9 per cent for those using proportional representation.

But that’s not the whole economic story. In his book, How Diversity Can Improve Policy Making, University of Michigan prof Salomon Orellana maintains regions with pro-rep are more fiscally responsible — they build up more budget surpluses and run fewer deficits.

Consensus societies are also more equitable, since they are more likely to redistribute wealth. Scholars such as Norway’s Carl Henrik Knutsen, author of Which Democracies Prosper?, even argue that countries with proportional representation produce stronger economic growth.

More minority representation

Proportional representation systems are called such because they are designed to better “represent” the wishes of more diverse voters.

Pro-rep typically elects more women, minorities and Indigenous people, show the trans-national studies that have looked at consensus democracies in Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, Iceland, Spain, Paraguay, Chile, Fiji, Australia and New Zealand, among others.

Orellana also found consensus democracies have greater gender equality, more openness to homosexuality, divorce and assisted suicide and more tolerance of so-called “out groups,” Majoritarian governments, Orellana found, rank 44 per cent lower on formal “prejudice scales.”

More stable governments

Using global indexes created by the World Bank, the Brookings Institute and other organizations, Lijphart was unable to positively prove consensus democracies are better at all aspects of government.

But Lijphart did come to a firm negative conclusion about majoritarian democracies, saying “They are clearly not superior to consensus democracies in providing good governance, managing the economy and maintaining civil peace.”

First-past-the-post elections typically create systems with two dominant parties, which fight to obtain more than 40 per cent of votes so they can dominate government. Proportional voting, on the other hand, tends to lead to coalitions between parties that have to share power and cooperate.

A major drawback of majoritarian governments is “policy lurch,” when newly elected parties summarily dismantle their opponents’ legislation. But while some say majority governments can make quicker, bolder decisions, Lijphart is among the scholars who have provided evidence that consensus governments often make slower choices that better stand the test of time.

Combating extremism

A central accusation made by B.C. opponents of proportional representation is that it will lead to more extremism. Some anti-pro-rep ads feature neo-Nazis and foreboding jackboot military parades

But fears about extremism have little basis in empirical evidence. Democracies whose governments are based on consensus, including in Africa and Asia, are less likely to be violent, according to researchers Wolf Linder, Bingham Powell and others.

Opponents have also warned pro-rep could lead to more people wanting to restrict immigration rates. But Orellano found “citizens in countries with proportional systems are not more likely to hold anti-immigrant views.”

Indeed, Orellano found that under consensus governments there is less pandering to single-issue groups and to the moneyed interests of the elite.

The additional good news is it’s not only politicians who become more conciliatory and sophisticated under consensus political systems. So do the media.

Judy McGregor and Janine Hayward have found in studies in New Zealand and elsewhere that the media move away from “horse-race” political reporting when there is a shift to consensus government. Under majoritarian governments, media outlets tend to focus on political manoeuvring. But with consensus governments, more journalists put their focus on interpreting the pros and cons of actual policies.

That alone would be refreshing.

dtodd@postmedia.com

@douglastodd
This may all be true, and if I was given a single fully fleshed out PR option to vote for there is a good chance I would for many of those reasons. I voted no not because PR is bad, but because voting for a vague system and letting the NDP and Greens then decide the details on how it will work is not acceptable.
 
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