SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Agreed.
Strategy for the Northern and Southern Resident Killer Whales
- Thread starter cohochinook
- Start date
Agreed.
ziggy
Well-Known Member
It appears they they are pretty good at offloading, but that doesn’t mean they are not accountable! People need to start saying either get on with it, or we aren’t going to be part of this sham.
RODNREEL
Active Member
Would only be fair if they sued the Americans to.
GrayBent
New Member
I thought this was very well said...
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
yes it was.
california
Well-Known Member
Well said? This guy posting his hugely misinformed nonsense and those like him are the reason the NGOs kick our asses and will continue to do so. Had he taken the time to even read just a few articles on the issues with SRKW it would be hugely beneficial, or Orca history (He states they "stopped capturing whales about 20 years ago" , when it was actually 1972). Instead he comes off as just another ignorant fisherman saying no problem here, F*&K the whales. I don't think any reasonable person disputes there are enough Chinook and other salmon AT THIS TIME OF YEAR. I'm sure they are eating some Sockeye, right now, and likely eat Chum when the the Chinook start petering out. The late summer and early fall are a decent time for them. The issues is the dramatic decline and extinction s of early spring and summer runs of Chinook that the Orca's historically rely on earlier in the year and in the winter. Orca's are not like Humpbacks or Grey whales and can just eat during a few summer months, migrate to warm waters and live off their blubber. They are fast swimming animals that stay and feed in cold waters all year and need to eat ALL YEAR. This guy seems unable or unwilling to grasp that basic fact as he spouts off about how many chinook are around right now as evidence they are not starving, and incredibly that there are no issues with Chinook populations. And Yes, chinook are a preferred species because for much of the year they are the ONLY species available in sufficient numbers and size for animals of that size to feed on in near shore areas. The SRKW now have longer lean times as our activities have severely reduced or eliminated those spring runs of chinook, which means drawing down blubber reserves , and releasing the toxins they accumulate from Puget Sound and Strait of Georgia salmon that rear in polluted estuaries. Northern residents may be keying on other fish species, and perhaps evolved to do so as they are genetically and socially distinct from SRKW as are Biggs whales. The destruction of significant portions of the Orca's food source has happened within the lifetime of some of the whales. The fact he thinks they should just start eating groundfish because that's what he would do is not the way evolution works. Just as the SRKW can't decide to eat seals as is often suggested on this forum. This guy thinks because he fished for 30 years he's a whale biologist. He clearly is not.
Videos of uninformed sport fisherman stating the issues of prey availability are a "crock" are NOT helpful in the PR battle with the green NGOs.
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California,
I believe that you may have jumped on the video discussion a wee bit hard. While he may have not been correct on dates of capture of the pod members, or the end point, he was offering petty good anecdotal experience based observation. Citizen science is becoming increasingly recognized as worth consideration, and this fellow was offering observations, not just opinion, over a long time period on the water...worth listening to as a starting point when looking for establishing a pattern of foraging behaviour, in my opinion.
If, as you say, there are lots of salmon available now, why are there restrictions on Recreational fishing only? DFO tells us that the the main issue is access to the salmon, not the amount of salmon right now, and that " noise " and presence of fishing gear is more of an impact than the constant whale watching and commercial crab and prawn boats, along with already high commercial shipping traffic.
I take issue with your statement " ...as our activities have severely reduced or eliminated those spring runs of chinook, " which brings to my mind , who is the " our " you are referring to? Right now, the top scientists working on salmon internationally believe that the main impact on chinook, as well as other salmon, is the first 3 months of ocean entry for the smolts. The thinking is along the lines of a critical growth time to reach a critical size, and that this period of feeding and growth will determine the whole size of the brood year returning. Ocean ecology is now the focus of research, and the impacts on that are not the domain of, nor caused by Recreational Anglers.
Further, summer run and spring run chinook are heavily dependent on fresh water availability, as well as the ocean ecology, both in out migration, year round for the yearling chinook, and of course water flow during the summer and early fall...not impacted by Recreational Anglers at all. Please note that DFO used to take out water licenses throughout the Interior and Vancouver Island, build control weirs and dams, and work to provide that critical water flow and sustaining pools and riffle structure...they now have no water licenses, and removed the dams and weirs because they presented too much liability on DFO for possible downstream impacts, and of course the structures needed maintenance ( money) . Again, not impacted by recreational angling.
Regarding Evolution, Darwin suggested in the research most often misquoted, that species which survive are those which can adapt to changes around them, not those species which are " the strongest" or best fed...and what we see, I believe, is a failure to adapt over time, because the spring and summer run chinook have been failing to survive in any appreciable numbers for some time now.
I believe that you may have jumped on the video discussion a wee bit hard. While he may have not been correct on dates of capture of the pod members, or the end point, he was offering petty good anecdotal experience based observation. Citizen science is becoming increasingly recognized as worth consideration, and this fellow was offering observations, not just opinion, over a long time period on the water...worth listening to as a starting point when looking for establishing a pattern of foraging behaviour, in my opinion.
If, as you say, there are lots of salmon available now, why are there restrictions on Recreational fishing only? DFO tells us that the the main issue is access to the salmon, not the amount of salmon right now, and that " noise " and presence of fishing gear is more of an impact than the constant whale watching and commercial crab and prawn boats, along with already high commercial shipping traffic.
I take issue with your statement " ...as our activities have severely reduced or eliminated those spring runs of chinook, " which brings to my mind , who is the " our " you are referring to? Right now, the top scientists working on salmon internationally believe that the main impact on chinook, as well as other salmon, is the first 3 months of ocean entry for the smolts. The thinking is along the lines of a critical growth time to reach a critical size, and that this period of feeding and growth will determine the whole size of the brood year returning. Ocean ecology is now the focus of research, and the impacts on that are not the domain of, nor caused by Recreational Anglers.
Further, summer run and spring run chinook are heavily dependent on fresh water availability, as well as the ocean ecology, both in out migration, year round for the yearling chinook, and of course water flow during the summer and early fall...not impacted by Recreational Anglers at all. Please note that DFO used to take out water licenses throughout the Interior and Vancouver Island, build control weirs and dams, and work to provide that critical water flow and sustaining pools and riffle structure...they now have no water licenses, and removed the dams and weirs because they presented too much liability on DFO for possible downstream impacts, and of course the structures needed maintenance ( money) . Again, not impacted by recreational angling.
Regarding Evolution, Darwin suggested in the research most often misquoted, that species which survive are those which can adapt to changes around them, not those species which are " the strongest" or best fed...and what we see, I believe, is a failure to adapt over time, because the spring and summer run chinook have been failing to survive in any appreciable numbers for some time now.
GLG
Well-Known Member
Anyone paying attention knows that video was nonsense sprinkled with some truth. These whales have been studied for 40 years and what the guy said that he know better then those folks that have letters after their names shows me he is brainwashed. I recall reading a few papers on these whales diet that confirm what California said. Here is a link to one of them.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0144956
I also recall reading one paper that did DNA to find out what runs of Chinook they targeted. From memory I think it was 4 year old Harrison. That could be because they were the most abundant at the time of sampling.
IMHO this video does more harm then good for recreational anglers and Rob should remove it off Youtube.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0144956
I also recall reading one paper that did DNA to find out what runs of Chinook they targeted. From memory I think it was 4 year old Harrison. That could be because they were the most abundant at the time of sampling.
IMHO this video does more harm then good for recreational anglers and Rob should remove it off Youtube.
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fogged in
Well-Known Member
This is what Sport Fishers are up against!
Environmental groups launching court action to protect endangered southern resident killer whales
http://digital.timescolonist.com/epaper/viewer.aspx
Environmental groups launching court action to protect endangered southern resident killer whales
http://digital.timescolonist.com/epaper/viewer.aspx
I'd say not hard enough. Never heard such an arrogant stream of false BS in memory
Up against a lot more than that my friend. The David Suzuki org has 50 full time paid staff, and there are 4 other organizations involved. Go and follow the footnotes in the lawsuit document to all the government research studies that fully back-up their claims.
Bottom line, I DO see some politics and cherry picking of data but for the most part their case is rock solid. As for the solutions, I think they are in "try & see" mode, which I fully support but realize in the suit they are asking for results from DFO only every 5 years, so it's gonna be at least 5 years.
I am an American & strongly agree. Two of the three SRKW pod's spend six months feeding off the WA-OR-CA coast. This point seems to get passed over when these groups cherry pick their data. When in this mode, they travel HUGE distances which tends to indicate there are not enough Chinook in one location to feed them for long, and i have no doubt their feeding activity scatters the fish & they move on. Check it out:
https://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/cb/ecosystem/marinemammal/satellite_tagging/blog.cfm
Most recent data is at the top; best to start at the bottom where they are leaving Puget Sound after feeding on the millions of Chum Salmon that run into the Sound each fall.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
Nice to hear some common sense on the subject for a change.
fish brain
Crew Member
Here is the article
Canada’s fisheries minister has fired back at environmental groups for launching court action to protect endangered southern resident killer whales instead of working with the federal government on the issue.
Jonathan Wilkinson said the groups abandoned discussions shortly after they began with federal officials and representatives from the transportation and fishing industries.
“I have to say, personally, I was very disappointed in the action that was taken by the environmental organizations,” he told reporters in Victoria.
“They were the ones who initially asked to convene the multi-stakeholder forum. They effectively attended one meeting and then decided that they would pursue a more adversarial approach rather than a collaborative approach.” Ecojustice lawyers, acting on behalf of five other conservation groups, launched a Federal Court case against Wilkinson and federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna this past week. The groups — the David Suzuki Foundation, Georgia Strait Alliance, Natural Resources Defense Council, Raincoast Conservation Foundation and World Wildlife Fund Canada — want the ministers to ask cabinet for an emergency order to protect the orcas.
Christianne Wilhelmson, executive director of the Georgia Strait Alliance, said Friday that the groups were prepared to work with the government.
“But the process that they set up was all about talking, not about action,” she said. “It was clear that this was just another process that was going to take months and months and months — and the orcas don’t have that.”
The southern residents, whose numbers have dwindled to 75 in three pods, have been the focus of international attention for weeks.
First, an adult female orca, J35, made headlines after carrying the carcass of her dead calf through the Salish Sea for more than two weeks. Then, an emaciated threeyear-old female orca, J50, became the focus of a joint Canada-U.S. rescue effort.
Researchers say a shortage of chinook salmon — the orcas’ preferred food — is one of the main reasons for their decline. Other factors include contaminants in the water and boat noise that interferes with the orcas’ ability to forage for food, researchers say.
Wilkinson insists the federal government has done an “enormous amount” to deal with those concerns.
He cited, among other things, the closure of chinook fishing in three key foraging areas; a 25 to 35 per cent reduction in the chinook fishery this year; a voluntary vessel slowdown in Haro Strait to reduce noise from passing ships; and a new requirement that whale-watching boats and other vessels stay 200 metres away from the orcas — twice the previous distance. The construction of new sewage treatment plants in Victoria and North Vancouver will help reduce contaminants in the water, he said.
In addition, the government announced that it wants feedback on two new areas of critical habitat — one off the coast of southwestern Vancouver Island, including the Swiftsure and La Pérouse banks, and the other in Dixon Entrance.
“We’re very open to implementing new measures if, in fact, we need to do that from a scientific perspective,” he said.
“I think this government is very proud of the work that it’s done and it very much intends to recover the southern resident killer whale.”
But Wilhelmson said the government has taken only “partial” measures to date. “They sound good on first blush, but when you look down, you see that they’re incomplete.”
She said seeking feedback on critical habitat areas is not the same as protecting those areas.
“That habitat may not be designated as critical habitat for another six to eight months, which means nothing changes,” she said.
“It really is misleading to say that they’re doing everything in their power. They’re not. They’re using normal processes, which take months and months, possibly years. Perhaps this is fast for government; it’s not fast enough for the orcas.”
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SpringVelocity
Crew Member
The ONLY reason you are on here is because you constantly whine and moan your fishery is closed and blame us for it. Why else would you come on here? I am glad it amuses you. How anyone on here can side with environmental groups with what is going on is beyond me. I even heard terms in there greedy fisherman from your personally. Who are you referencing? We will remember that when we are standing our enhancement creeks in October thinking about what you said. Some of the comments on this forum are unreal.
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GrayBent
New Member
Regarding the above video, everyone has their opinion, and that is a right in this country. I should have stated there were parts to it which I do not agree with and some of the language used unquestionably take away from the video's overall impact. Obviously, he is not an expert but time on the water speaks for itself, and the video does not come across as a rage-filled rant to me. My in-laws have a lodge in Bamfield, and I can tell you if the recreational fishing is shut down in the area it will close down the majority of the business in there, including theirs. I know I will not be going to Bamfield if I can't fish, and I get free room and board. Yes, the whales should be protected, but what about protecting the people in small communities who only survive because of the money brought in by the recreational fisherman? This is my opinion, which we are all entitled to have.
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
The reality is as chinook population have become increasingly endangered that the SRKW will and are Forced to compete in their northern range.
Places like Bamfield, Tofino will be the battle ground of the future for these whales unless serious effort is made to restore chinook run in their southern range.
Columbia, Fraser,Sacramento and other river in the southern rams have and are up for endangered listing.
Kinda like fishermen are now forced to go north for much of the year so are these whales.
Oh and the worse part is yet to come if some of these chinook populations get endangered listing it will mean tones more closure windows and likely if we can get funding a marked chinook selective fishery only.
The whale decline is a symptom of a much bigger problem and a reflection of the poor health of our Salish sea.
This fight has just begun...
Places like Bamfield, Tofino will be the battle ground of the future for these whales unless serious effort is made to restore chinook run in their southern range.
Columbia, Fraser,Sacramento and other river in the southern rams have and are up for endangered listing.
Kinda like fishermen are now forced to go north for much of the year so are these whales.
Oh and the worse part is yet to come if some of these chinook populations get endangered listing it will mean tones more closure windows and likely if we can get funding a marked chinook selective fishery only.
The whale decline is a symptom of a much bigger problem and a reflection of the poor health of our Salish sea.
This fight has just begun...
ziggy
Well-Known Member
Anyone know is the US contemplating whale sanctuaries as well? I’m sure the end game for the enviros is to shut down the Gulf and SanJuans. I find this sanctuary idea a bit flawed for a couple of reasons. It seems to assume the whales only intercept fish in specific areas of the fish migration routes. Anything as smart as an Orca would surely be smart enough to move to where the salmon are. Clearly the don’t read fishing reports, but just as clearly they they are very mobile and can find the fish. It seems odd to me we are setting up these Sanctuaries in what is close to urban centres and prime whale watching areas. The fact that trolling motors are an issue in sanctuaries yet flotillas of whale watching vessels aren’t also makes one wonder.
california
Well-Known Member
That's a good point. There have been restrictions on commercial fisheries all season, so it hasn't just been recreational. There are two intertwined conservation issues. One being prey availability for SRKW Which I agree is probably not really an issue during this peak migration time window. The other is Overall chinook abundance which is an issue and still needs to be adressed. DFO tends to use the SRKW part of it to justify all conservation measures as it is the message their target voters want to hear. While there are some restrictions still, some were lifted and the WCVI all the way to Port Renfrew hasn't had any new ones all season.
The "our" is human activities as you also point out. The Spring runs have been decimated by dams, water diversions, pollution and overfishing both commericial and sport. The Elwha river is just one example of a river that had tyees comning up it in June. That part of the run went extinct decades ago when the river was dammed with no fish passage. June hogs in the Columbia are now rare. Tho loss of these Big early season chinooks no doubt has had an impact when SRKW must chase smaller sized fish in less abundant runs.
Your other points had some validity, but not this one. Yes Populations evolve over time. Lots of time as in many generations. The destruction of the spring salmon runs has happened since the 1960s, within one generation of these animals. Individuals do not "evolve" during theirr lifetime (unless you still believe in Lamarck's theory of inheritance of aquired charateristics) and populations don't evolve that fast, particularly a long lived and slow to reproduce species like Orcas. They evolved to prey on these salmon runs over thousands of years, and many of the runs have been removed over just 50 or 60 years. Fruit flies with a 2 week turnover/generation could evolve over 50 years, not Orcas.
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