Test old fuel, remove from tanks

Peahead

Well-Known Member
Got another Grady (228 with 200 HPDI Yami ) coming up from states. This one has had many delays getting shipped here and I am concerned about the fuel quality in the two tanks by the time it gets here. The boat ran well for the sea trial in NY and all was good for mechanical check and survey however its been 40+ days since the sea trial and will be another 10-15 days before i see this Grady in Vancouver thanks to Dreamtime Transport's constant delays ( pm me if you want info on this shipping). Of course ironically the boat was full of expensive fuel that may be going bad. My concern is US fuel has 10% ethanol in it ( E10) as a norm and from what I understand from talking to mechanics in Florida, North Carolina and New York, 3 months storage is max for this fuel before it starts to cause big problems in outboard motors especially older models but also those as recent as 2005. Potential phase seperation can happen easily with this fuel not to mention what the ethanol can do to engine parts when it is sitting for more than a few weeks unused. Ethanol fuel is best if it runs through the outboard motor regularily and best if it doesn't sit unused for more than couple weeks.
Also I understand that E10 gas mixed with gas that contains MTBE can cause a chemical reaction that causes the fuel mixture to gel or partially solidify. Apparently, after further research ,I am told our local marine fuel does contain MTBE.
So what do I do ? Do I pump out all 400 litres of fuel from the main tank and another 200 liters from the aux tank at a cost of $1 per liter to pump plus the value of the fuel, just to be safe ? Can I do this easily myself if i locate tons of Jerry cans ? ...then where do i dump the fuel ?
Can I get someone to test fuel in both tanks and maybe find that it is OK ? If fuel is bad any recommendations who could do this pump out and discard of fuel for a decent price ?

thanks in advance...
 
I cannot say for the type of fuel in the states but the fuel here if not stabilized properly B4 storage, gives me piece of mind by topping off with fresh fuel to equalize octane & better burn than stagnant fuel

I had an issue in my aux tank, that I rarely use due to the mains on my GW 228, being enough to fulfill my daily needs
One day that need was raised & switched to the aux, she ran great for a while but konked out 3mi from home
Luckily I had spare Raycors & limped home
I cleaned my aux tank by draining the the fuel until the sediments were minimized & the remainder was tossed in a Jerry
I added a few liters of methyl hydrate, until the sediments were diminished ..........IMO the Raycors will take the rest
After that the aux was used regularly with no issues

Kh
 
You kow what if your that worrried Ill take that fuel of your hands just because !!!! free of charge and ill even come and get it!!! LOL now how to get it out of the tank may be a bit of task but im sure it can be done i have 45 gallon drums on hand and many jerry cans... call me ill use it!!!!

wolf
 
I wouldn't stress over fuel unless it had SERIOUS age on it. I'm with kanuckle head on the Raycor comment--When you get the boat in your possession, add some Marine Stabil then burn it through a Racor or a Yammie fuel filter.

If you want to be real conservative, purchase the Racor 2 micron filters (S3228SUL) and strain it through those. As you draw down the tank by 1/3, add some premium gas to liven up the old stuff.

I've been burning ethonol doped fuel for years. I'm careful to keep the tanks pressed (a full tank minimizes condensation), I always step on the gas with Stabil (and now, Marine Stabil), and last but not least, always run it through a 10 micron filter and change-out the filters every 50 hours.

I might step up for the new Racor 2 micron filters alluded to above because I'm a cheap-skate and always buy cheap gas.

Last step: maybe clean your water separator filter and the fuel filters in the 200 HPDI after burning off the suspect fuel

Otherwise, you can count on loads of guys out there that will line up in your driveway with jerry cans in hand if you ultimately decide to dump your "useless fuel"

Overkill in my opinion...
 
You are likely fine with fuel that is only a few months old. That said, ensure you are using a good fuel water separator. The only issue I'd be worried about is phase separation and that will be taken care of by a good F/W separator.

Don't bother adding expensive stabil to the fuel; it only works on fresh gas. It does not bring old gas back to it's original state.

As a test you can siphon out half a liter or so from each tank and let it sit in glass jars over night. Watch to see if the fuel separates out into layers or water and fuel. Siphon the fuel for testing from the bottom of each tank.

If it all checks out, I would burn both tanks down to less than 1/4 before mixing in some fresh fuel. The octane rating of the gas you add should be what the engine manufacturer recommends. If the motor doesn't need premium high octane then don't waste your money on that as it will have no benefit either.
 
Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
It's time we get to the bottom of how E10 is affecting our engines

In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United States, a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel – and E15 could cause serious problems for marine engines – at least a few myths about ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:

Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than regular gasoline.
Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be great enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same mechanics will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years of combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note, however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer — an antioxidant — whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.

The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things to increase the chances of phase separation:

It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.

It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been dealing with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of phase separation.)

If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.

Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator to prevent the water reaching the engine.
Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.

Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem.

Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?
Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may work incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.

E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

First, not all U.S. fuel has ethanol in it - especially marine fuel, so is it even ethanol? But, it is a yep on E10 being the norm at any gas pump. There are some states that you can actually buy E100.

The length any gas can be stored is in direct proportion with the environment, how it is stored, and what it is stored in. Read and re-read Myth #1, Myth #2, and Myth #3 and remember it sat over the winter (was that inside out of the elements or outside in all that rain, snow, and ice creating condensation). Those are marine fuel tanks and I don't know if they were full or not but, they do have “vents”.

The biggest and IMHO “only” threat is the possibility of “phase separation”! Phase separation will only happen when the gas is saturated with enough water it can no longer hold that amount of water – hence it separates.

Read Myth #2… With non-ethanol gas, the water settles to the bottom of the tank. With ethanol if it phase separates the water takes all that added octane with it so you lose the octane and that alone can damage the engine. Save your money on buying any fuel separator as if ethanol separates, there is NO water separator made that can or will handle it; plus, you don’t want to burn the lower octane fuel anyway. Just use it to light that bonfire!

If the engine was designed for ethanol, it will not harm at all. Could actually be better for it. Myth #3. Ethanol is actually an excellent cleaner. Now with that again, any gas starts degrading and losing octane when exposed to oxygen. It wouldn’t hurt to add some octane booster?

FYI... E10 will actually hold more moisture (water) before “phase separation” than regular gas treated with MTBE. Depending on exactly where you buy your gas in Canada, I wouldn’t assume it was treated with MTBE?

If it is E10, just check it for ‘phase separation’, put some octane booster in if you wish and burn it!

If it has indeed ‘phase separated’ which you can easily check for by taking a sample… I would NOT recommend burning it in any engine. And, that is wiith or without any type of fuel separator!

I would highly recommend... DO NOT MIX ANY TYPE OF ETHANOL GAS WITH ANY GAS CONTAINING MTBE!!!!!!

http://www.enertechlabs.com/fuel_phase_separation_in_ethanol.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I cannot say for the type of fuel in the states but the fuel here if not stabilized properly B4 storage, gives me piece of mind by topping off with fresh fuel to equalize octane & better burn than stagnant fuel

I had an issue in my aux tank, that I rarely use due to the mains on my GW 228, being enough to fulfill my daily needs
One day that need was raised & switched to the aux, she ran great for a while but konked out 3mi from home
Luckily I had spare Raycors & limped home
I cleaned my aux tank by draining the the fuel until the sediments were minimized & the remainder was tossed in a Jerry
I added a few liters of methyl hydrate, until the sediments were diminished ..........IMO the Raycors will take the rest
After that the aux was used regularly with no issues

Kh
Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!!! KH, I am so very proud of you......You CAN speak English!!!! Yo bra, neva thot u cud it dood.
wut up da shizzl:D
 
Ok thanks !! ..... so I read all your posts, thanks for all the replies from all of you - its amazing how much different info I have gathered now. Yeah, lots of myths ...or not myths? You start to hear so much about this you just don't know what to take as true or not....... The guys down south are very very concerned about E10 that they have become so obsessed with it down there to the point they act almost as if its the same as staring the devil in the face! After two trips down there this winter it is beginning to rub off on me a bit , especially now that it could effect me more.

WOLF-- thanks for your offer to pump out my fuel .... I would certainly give it to you however I don't think you want it if it proves to be phase seperated !!!



What I have learned as it pertains to my situation:

1) My main fuel tank was close to full all winter....so thats good with less condensation/water.

2) Aux tank was only partially full so not so good.

3) I could not find out when tanks were filled last ( age of fuel) or if any of the fuel was stabilized.

4) Wintered on parking lot on trailer in NY - winter there was mild however some very fluctuating temperatures

5) During sea trial on the Hudson River in early March, the 200 hp Yami HPDI ran very well off main tank only at times at WOT and for 45 min with no sign of problems

6) NY Yamaha certified technician checked motor as all ok and recommended only change of fuel filters . I got that done March 9th as well as replaced water seperator filter and leg lube at same time. All that was done after sea trial and then motor was apparently winterized again at that point (have no idea what they actually did to winterize the motor other than maybe storage seal. Fuel stabilizer at that point would likely be no good as fuel was already "older"

7) I am assuming tanks have E10 in them but not known for sure ( hard to find any fuel pumps without ethanol there so assumption is likely correct)

8) The aux tank is only partially full and likely older than main tank's fuel. I have no idea how old the fuel is in either tank

9) I have been told By Bruce Falkins (Fisherman's Cove Marine) when I fuel up anywhere here, I will be filling with fuel that does contain MTBE.




This is my plan when boat arrives:

1) test fuel sample from both tanks for possible phase seperation. Try to get fuel from both lower in tank and higher in tank to test.

2) pump out fuel from main and/or aux tanks if determined fuel has phase seperation - call Wolf to do this for me for a couple beers !!! ;-)

3) If fuel is not phase seperated then I will add octane booster and run the tanks close to empty of E10 before filling up with local E0 fuel - as long as tank is virtually empty of E10 I will assume it is ok to then fill up with fuel that may contain MTBE.

3) check water seperator filter regularily and change out again as necessary - change fuel fiters again after few hours of running with E0.

This sound about right ? Charlie ? ..........
 
This is my plan when boat arrives:

1) test fuel sample from both tanks for possible phase seperation. Try to get fuel from both lower in tank and higher in tank to test.

2) pump out fuel from main and/or aux tanks if determined fuel has phase seperation - call Wolf to do this for me for a couple beers !!! ;-)

3) If fuel is not phase seperated then I will add octane booster and run the tanks close to empty of E10 before filling up with local E0 fuel - as long as tank is virtually empty of E10 I will assume it is ok to then fill up with fuel that may contain MTBE.

3) check water seperator filter regularily and change out again as necessary - change fuel fiters again after few hours of running with E0.

This sound about right ? Charlie ? ..........
Personally... I think, you got it! :)
 
Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!!! KH, I am so very proud of you......You CAN speak English!!!! Yo bra, neva thot u cud it dood.
wut up da shizzl:D

Well played fin, well played :D
 
Charlie,
you said "DO NOT MIX ANY TYPE OF ETHANOL GAS WITH ANY GAS CONTAINING MTBE!!!!!!"

Could you comment further about that and site some sources. There are many from the states like yourself, who come to Canada with E10 fuel in their tanks, and refuel while in Canada with MTBE fuel. thanks. DAJ
 
Charlie,
you said "DO NOT MIX ANY TYPE OF ETHANOL GAS WITH ANY GAS CONTAINING MTBE!!!!!!"

Could you comment further about that and site some sources. There are many from the states like yourself, who come to Canada with E10 fuel in their tanks, and refuel while in Canada with MTBE fuel. thanks. DAJ

I would highly suggest at least try to know what types of gasoline you are planning on mixing! Here is the State of Washington requirements concerning MTBE:

State; WA
EPA Region: 10
Phaseout date: 1/1/04
Complete or partial ban?: Partial: may not be intentionally added to fuel, or knowingly mixed in gasoline above 0.6% (vol.)
Applies to other oxygenates?: MTBE only
Date of adoption: 5/10/01

I carry 296 gallons of fuel - full. Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not ethanol, depending on where I buy and honestly, while in Washington - I don't care due to the above. The changes of me having problems mixing any gasoline containing such a small amount of MTBE is slim. Not saying there could or could not be issues with the other additives used - Not sure anyone can honestly answer that one?

Now with that said, what I do...
1) I prefer to leave Tacoma, WA with just enough fuel (and a little reserve) to get me to my Port of Entry in Canada and then fill her up. Point of Entry is almost always either Victoria or Oakbay. FYI... One trip into Victoria I got there and wasn't sure I had enough fuel left in the tanks to get me to the customs dock and back to the fuel dock. So, to the fuel dock I went and took on 295 gallons of fuel! :)

2) I will burn as much fuel off, getting rid of any E10 (or other non-MTBE gas), before filling her up with what I assume will be MTBE. Once you sort through all the BS, you will find there is enough valid information out there to justify the concern of, "DO NOT MIX ANY TYPE OF ETHANOL GAS WITH ANY GAS CONTAINING MTBE!!!!!!", at least there is for me. Here IMHO are some of the more "valid" sources stating concerns mixing MTBE with ethanol and they pretty much say the same thing:

“Mixing MTBE fuel with ethanol blend fuel can create a gel-like substance that clogs passages in carburetors.

“Stalled engines and engine damage are the result. Fuel injected engines have shown less damage, than carbureted engines, from this gel-like substance.
http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

"Avoid mixing E10 and MTBE gasoline blends. Mixing may cause precipitates to form which can clog filters.
http://www.star109.org/tech tips/Dr Jays Tech Tip E-10.htm

“Since the 1970s, most non ethanol gasoline sold has a component called MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) added to the base gasoline to increase oxygen in the fuel, boosting octane. Though this additive is being phased out due to concerns over pollution of drinking water aquifers, it still is in use in many areas. Mixing ethanol with MTBE fuels creates a gel-like substance that gums up fuel and combustion systems.
http://www.iboats.com/basics/ethanol_fuels.html

“So what I have found, and it is difficult to pin-point, but a reaction takes place when ethanol fuels and MtBE fuels are mixed. Since ethanol loves water, we now have a third element to deal with. We know that ethanol fuel will phase separate when the percentage of water reaches 0.5% at either 60 or 70 degrees F. At this point a dark slurry will appear at the bottom of the fuel tanks. I often reference this as dark grapefruit, but actually it is the mixing of MtBE & ethanol.

“Located in http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm they also reference this goo. In addition I have attached a photo taken during a tank cleaning last summer. On the left is a pre-filtration sample bottle, next is a post-filtration sample bottle and finally a bottle of water. The matter in the pre-filtration sample bottle hadn't time to reach the black goo but given time it would have. At this stage the boat was out of service and was undergoing major cost set-backs to restore the engines.
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=404821

“There is also a problem where Gasoline, MTBE, Ethanol, and Water come together. This combination can cause formations of a thick, gooey, black material that wreaks havoc on fuel systems.
http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Is MBTE still used here in BC or Canada for that matter? Seems odd if BC gasoline producers are required to include an average of 5% ethanol in their products....
 
Is MBTE still used here in BC or Canada for that matter? Seems odd if BC gasoline producers are required to include an average of 5% ethanol in their products....

X2, I was wondering the same thing (if BC uses both MTBE & ethanol).
It certainly sounds like a deadly combination (after reading Charlies posts).

F D
 
Back
Top