Question about "deep trolling"

FA; You ask me some direct why questions. I took the time to answer based on my experience with deep water fishing and HP’s.. You seemed to have got yourself all worked up about nothing and seem to be looking for a fight. Your not going to get one out of me as I know when I would be wasting my time. I won’t be responding to you further and please don’t mis- quote me in the future. You have a nice night now.
I am not looking for a fight.... Plus I am not worked up about this. I am also just sharing information that I truly know and can stand behind and can show others personally if they so like.

I just don't get it Rockfish that's why I took the time to break your post down and ask a few questions along the way.. As most of my experience is with deep water fishing and I have used both styles of riggers personally. I won't be buying into HP's any time soon. And now that I have confirmed and sold many of balls to guys using regular riggers with out issues I may be using them my self. Might just do so when I take your pal Newfie Boy out next time and let him tell you all about it.

Dont think I mis quoted you I just used your post, broke it down and asked questions is that not ok? Can you not answer the questions? Are we not abel to learn and understand our equipment and what it is really capable of?

You have a good night Rockfish......
 
All I can add to this is that I fish 18 lb balls out of Campbell River on the 1106, and I don't have a probelm. The swivel bases, maybe, but I'm keeping an eye on them, and they haven't given out yet. I'm more than a little familiar with weight\speed calculations of a winch (which is basically what a downrigger is) and although I have not taken a Scotty apart to find out about the motor, I do know that they specify a 30 amp fuse on the 1106's. 30 amps @ 13 volts = 390 watts. At 746 watts\horsepower, that works out to .522 horsepower. Now, I haven't timed how long it takes me to bring an 18 lb ball up from 200 feet, but I can tell you that I have to work just a little bit to keep up with the downrigger. But if anybody is interested, here is the calculation for mass and vertical lift,
HP = vertical speed in ft\min X line pull \ 33000 Keep in mind that this calculation does not account for any mechanical losses i.e pulley friction, motor losses, etc.
So if it takes 2 minutes to bring an 18 lb ball from 200 ft to the surface, (we're going to ignore the mass of the downrigger line here), that means :
100 ft\min x 18 lbs \33000 = .055 hp.
Now if it takes 30 seconds :
400 ft\min x 18 lbs \33000 = .218 hp
So with the 30 amp fuse not popping, and since we've already shown that 30 amps @ 13 volts = .522 hp, I see no reason why the motor in the 1106 is not capable of bringing up more than 15 lb balls. Perhaps it's the belt, but that's another set of calculations.
 
That's awesome thank you for posting that. As for the swivel bases they should hold up really well. Look at these prawn pullers that pull 100#'s plus and the gear get stuck......worse thing that happens is he fuses blows.

Hang on the pulley or pull on your braided line your will be amazed how much strength your machines actually have.

I have personally done this to my gear on my driveway with an electrician metering the circuit. We were unable to even blow a fuse.
 
I am not anti braid. In fact I tend to use braid on one side and steel on the other because of the layout of the rigger mounts on my boat (pretty far forward) and I have a nasty tendency to turn a little tight at times in the nasty Sooke current. When on the kicker the main is down for use as a rudder and on occasion the rigger cable on that side will go up over and behind the prop and hang there. If it’s steel cable you bring up the main and lift it off with the boat hook. If it’s braid and gets anywhere near the sharp not running prop blades it cuts off.

Braid is stronger, wears better and lasts longer than steel but cuts easily. Braid is not effected by a bad boat electrical charge but neither does it gain from a good one as steel does. Braid adds more to blow back than steel.

For really deep fishing, steel is far better because it tends to be thinner than braid and because steel adds several pounds of weight which does make a difference for countering blowback when fishing really deep.

Certainly not anti regular speed riggers. I run them at times as well as the HP’s. I would say the reg speeds are a little more reliable but Scotty has been working hard on the HP design and have made some improvements over the first generation so I think it is very close now. The HP’s are less forgiving than the Reg’s. If you are not careful with the green button when you are past the stops and redo your connections on occasion you will lose balls as they put a lot more stress on the gear with all that power, especially if you jam the terminal rigger gear into the pulley.

I will sometimes put a HP on one side for me and a Reg speed on the other side for people not use to HP’s. If you are only fishing 20 to 65 feet or so there is not a lot of advantage to the HP unless you are in some high cost derby and the bite comes on for a short time, or you have a double header of large ones and want the riggers out of the way asap, then I guess every second counts.

I am out to the Scotty Factory frequently and they tell me that the reg speed rigger is designed for a max ball weight of 15lbs and the HP a max weight of 20 lbs. If you insist on going over spec. I think there is more leeway with the HP than there is with the Reg speed. In fact slowing the HP down a little makes it more user error forgiving. Sure you can put more weight on but the reg speed Scotty is a slug at 15 or more and slow at 10lbs, although if you use braid I guess you lose the extra weight of the cable which may help a little. Going heavy on a rigger not designed for it is going to cause excess wear and more frequent failures, the logic of that is inescapable. It does not mean you can’t do it.

Once you are use to the HP’s you won’t go back especially for fishing deep and there is not much difference in purchase cost. If your down 250 feet on a Reg speed you feel like you have time to go to the galley and make lunch but on the high speed you look up and its up. The only thing to be careful with is that HPs draw a lot more amps. I run duel batteries and a kicker with an 11 amp charging system and have never come close to having a problem.

Great post Rockfish. Very interesting. Braid has some adavantages but what I cannot understand is why some folks say it has less blow back than steel. That cannot be right since the density of steel (weight per unit length) must be many, many times that of braid. Therefore, just like using lead lines for deep lake fishing, steel must be better for controlling blow back. I guess these folks have never fished one of each as we have, side by side in the same current to compare?!

Also interesting is you have talked to the Scotty factory people about the deign max for their products. Can't get any more direct input than that. As you say you can exceed the max design (I am sure they have a lot of tolerance in their design) but if they have a recommended max that is enough for me.
 
Trolling deep ??
Wire vs. braid ??
they both work, pick the one you like the best and use it.
It would be nice to see the end of this debate once and for all.
 
Some people are just sticklers when come to following recommendations by companies and fail when it comes to experimenting. Guessing you guys use the recommended lengths of leaders on the flasher packages.

How Lame.....

Braid all the way
 
Seems like some of you guys take it personally if somebody likes one type of downrigger line and you like another. Or if they dont agree on ball size. Re read the thread quite entertaining and deffinetly some combative posts.

Anyways I don't want to start a new thread so ill derail this one further. Fish Assasin what do you (and anyone else with experience) think of the coated cannon balls? I got 6 and I fished them a couple days but hits deffinetly favoured the bare ball side. In fact the only hits I got on the coated ball side came on the 3rd rod stacked 45 ft above the ball.

I'm back to bare lead on each side ill try the coated again because fishing was slow but initial tests were not what I expected the coated balls failed.

If you like the coated balls what color(s) are you running? I got green, chartreuse, red and pink in 10, 12 and 15lb sizes.

Back to topic bare lead is maybe better for deep fishing because the coating would increase the surface area increasing blowback. Lol as if anyone would notice.
 
The recommended leader lengths on my O'ki flasher packages says:-


18 to 25" for Pinks
16 to 25" for Sockeye
22 to 36" for Coho
24 to 42" for Chinook
24 to 72" for a bait-type lure

Underneath that it says " These lengths serve as a guide only....leader lengths may vary from area to area, year to year"

and that the flasher can be trolled from 1.5 to 3.5 knots.....

and it also shows specific methods of rigging the flasher.....

So IMO if a person went with the instructions on the flasher package (where there is actually NO one leader length recommended at all), staying within the guide lines they couldn't go too far wrong.
 
I see Scotty is coming out with premium low drag line can't tell if its for sale or not
 
Some people are just sticklers when come to following recommendations by companies and fail when it comes to experimenting. Guessing you guys use the recommended lengths of leaders on the flasher packages.

How Lame.....

Braid all the way

this is just it, a lot of guys try braid and they string up 200 or even 250lb test braid and then complain that it blows back- well ya you have braid big and strong enough to anchor a boat. Why on earth anybody suggests 200lb braid for a downrigger is crazy, you really want 199lbs of force on your equipment before it breaks? Downrigger steel cable is only around 150lbs, don't go higher test then cable - it makes zero sense.

My preference is 130lb braid, its half the thickness of 150lb downrigger cable.

Oh and Englishman its about surface area not density of material, the smaller the surface area on the line the less drag.
 
I use 200# braid (on one side) for a little extra abrasion protection. My pulley on the braid side is old. With 130# line I would worry more about breaks from any little nick. Most people using 200# braid probably have a snubber or other break away device on the line.

Besides anytime my balls snag the downrigger pays out line and I circle back and pull the ball off. Check your brake setting its easy to adjust when you hang on bottom even the snubber shouldn't be the first thing to break the rigger should start paying out line before that happens. So 200# line shouldn't mean your gear has to face a 200# force if you take precautions. In another thread wolf mentioned a 100# split ring I'm going to check that out might be a better solution then a snubber although snubbers are nice to grab in to.
 
Great post Rockfish. Very interesting. Braid has some adavantages but what I cannot understand is why some folks say it has less blow back than steel. That cannot be right since the density of steel (weight per unit length) must be many, many times that of braid. Therefore, just like using lead lines for deep lake fishing, steel must be better for controlling blow back. I guess these folks have never fished one of each as we have, side by side in the same current to compare?!

Also interesting is you have talked to the Scotty factory people about the deign max for their products. Can't get any more direct input than that. As you say you can exceed the max design (I am sure they have a lot of tolerance in their design) but if they have a recommended max that is enough for me.

Fish braid and steel side by side all the time. When down really deep and I have a 15 on the steel it takes a 20 to put the same blow back angle on the braid at the same depth. Granted the really thin, weaker braid will have less blow back than the stronger braid but I don’t think it will compete with the extra weight the steel adds once you have a lot of it out. The more out the more weight you add. I like both but for different reasons. The braid is sure strong. Once ran a 20 lb ball on braid into a reef and even with the brake feeding out it still just about stopped the boat and turned it sideways with the current pushing it, and my boat is an old school heavy glass tank. Ran around to the other side of the reef and pulled the ball off. I suspect if it would have been steel it would have broke off. On the other hand you don’t want to get the braid anywhere near anything sharp like trim tab blades or non operating props as it cuts off like nothing. The steel /braid debate will go on forever because they both have their unique strengths and weaknesses.
 
"It's about surface area"......it could also be about surface type for speed through water unobstructed.

Braid is woven ..so is steel.....so they seem to basically the same in surface 'type"

But......I know that the hulls of competitive sailing boats are coated with a kind of "sharkskin' paint.

Many people think that if they polish there boat hulls with wax it will go faster. No it won't.
The sharkskin paint forms a kind of water layer round the boat so there's less resistance at speed.
The wax job can't do this.

If they ever made a downrigger line with that kind of surface you'd get less blowback.

right now I'm just waiting for my wife to finish making dinner.....
 
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