Question about "deep trolling"

naknekm

Member
I have been reading about deep trolling and see the suggestion of trolling about 10' above the bottom. I am wondering if that is an actual 10' above bottom and takes in to account the blow back from the downrigger. For example if in 150' foot of water and there is 30 degrees of blow back on the cable, without doing the math, I would guess that the ball is actually about 30 feet above bottom.

How do you guys deal with the blowback and getting down near the bottom? I have seen some discussion about actually bouncing the ball off the bottom, but I worry about hanging up.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
Study the bottom of the ocean at the area you want to do that. And know where the depth changes. Pretty easy to get hung up and lose a lot of gear quickly especially when trolling.
 
Fishing deep and dropping the ball till it bounces and then bringing it up ten feet won’t usually put you ten feet off the bottom because of the effects of blow back. On a flat sand/grave/mud bottom we drop it to it bounces and then bring it up three feet and wait about 15 seconds till water pressure and current pushes it back up as far as it is going to go. Then drop it again and bring it up ten feet and you are ten feet off the bottom. Down deep blow back can push it up 30 feet or more. To maintain 10 feet off the bottom you will have to check and adjust the depth by bouncing again periodically because: the depth of water will change, you may change motor output/throttle,, you may pick up a little weed on the cable or bow in the line, you may change course (into or against current), the current may speed up or slow down especially on tide changes.

We sometimes do this to get a large herring by itself 3 feet off the bottom for Hali and then stack a salmon line 20 feet up for the big Chinook.

Be careful about the speed you drop it near the bottom, especially if not down quite deep or there is little blow back as the bounce can put slack in the cable/braid and it can go off the rigger spool and wind on the shaft or even break when you go to bring it up. Have done that once and know others who have and it is not fun.
 
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X3 or 4 or what ever!! I also just look and see what my counter reads when everything has settled vs the sounder depth-I notice the difference-we'll say 20 ft then as long as the bottom stays relatively close to where I started then I raise or lower the ball to maintain the differential.
 
I don't know that it's THAT important being within ten feet of the bottom.

When the "Nooks are grovelling in the sand for needlefish it might be worth it.

My d/rigger clip is 6ft up from the ball.....so even if the ball was 10ft off the bottom exactly, I'm still 16ft above in reality.

Not many places where the bottom is as flat as a billiard table.....

French Creek is the only place where I'll try that around here mostly (mid ECVI)

I think you could be 20feet off the bottom and still attract fish to the flasher and lure.

This year I haven't worried too much about being on the bottom.......the fish seem to be generally higher in the water column a lot for some reason.


You planning on "bottom bouncing" when you get to Tofino?
 
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I don't know that it's THAT important being within ten feet of the bottom.

When the "Nooks are grovelling in the sand for needlefish it might be worth it.

My d/rigger clip is 6ft up from the ball.....so even if the ball was 10ft off the bottom exactly, I'm still 16ft above in reality.

Not many places where the bottom is as flat as a billiard table.....

French Creek is the only place where I'll try that around here mostly (mid ECVI)

I think you could be 20feet off the bottom and still attract fish to the flasher and lure.

This year I haven't worried too much about being on the bottom.......the fish seem to be generally higher in the water column a lot for some reason.


You planning on "bottom bouncing" when you get to Tofino?

I agree, we do have some nice long flat bottoms off Sooke and 20 feet up in say 140 feet is sometimes a good depth mid day in the summer if they are not up high feeding. A little different for winters if you are trying to pry them out of the needle fish right on the bottom.
 
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as others have said its best to touch bottom every once in a while and bring it up a few feet. Some days I could have 180' feet of line out to touch bottom in 130' of water.
 
If you plan on a lot of deep fishing a Scotty HP and a 20lb ball and 500 feet of cable, not braid, is very much worth the money. Wait to you pull up your first Chinook from over 300 feet.
 
Blow back is not as much of an issue as many are lead to summize. In the same manner as a cable when strung out straight has deflection over a long distance, the same principle applies to the cable and weight of a cannon ball. In the case of a cannon ball cable the deflection is vertical rather than horizontal, but the physics of gravity play the same part. There will be an arc to the cable that will progress to the ball. At the connection to the ball and for a distance above that, the cable will still be vertical. That distance will depend on cable, composition, weight and thickness, cannon ball weight and shape, speed through the water column and variance of current at varying depths.

In fact, I think I think about too many stupid things when fishing is slow ;-)
 
Wait to you pull up your first Chinook from over 300 feet.

I have done it at 150 feet. But not at 300. The areas off Tofino where I fish are about 150 or thereabouts.

Thanks all for the advice. I will try the suggestions and hope I don't lose gear. 36 hours and I will be fishing!

Marty
 
If you plan on a lot of deep fishing a Scotty HP and a 20lb ball and 500 feet of cable, not braid, is very much worth the money. Wait to you pull up your first Chinook from over 300 feet.
Why cable? I know more guys running braid then cable and we drag bottom all the time.
Why an HP and a 20lb ball? Being that I sell CCB's cannonballs here in the Comox Valley I have met many guys using twenties on the old Scotty riggers and they are not blowing fuses and their unit are covered under warranty if anything does happen. These guys are letting out 300ft in Campbell River. In fact one guy has been using 20's for years he said, another guy was using a manual rigger.
 
I was shocked when he came to buy 20's and said that. I had asked if he had HP's just cause I now ask every one out of interest since seeing how many guys are running 20's on 1106's.
 
Why cable? I know more guys running braid then cable and we drag bottom all the time.
Why an HP and a 20lb ball? Being that I sell CCB's cannonballs here in the Comox Valley I have met many guys using twenties on the old Scotty riggers and they are not blowing fuses and their unit are covered under warranty if anything does happen. These guys are letting out 300ft in Campbell River. In fact one guy has been using 20's for years he said, another guy was using a manual rigger.


I am not anti braid. In fact I tend to use braid on one side and steel on the other because of the layout of the rigger mounts on my boat (pretty far forward) and I have a nasty tendency to turn a little tight at times in the nasty Sooke current. When on the kicker the main is down for use as a rudder and on occasion the rigger cable on that side will go up over and behind the prop and hang there. If it’s steel cable you bring up the main and lift it off with the boat hook. If it’s braid and gets anywhere near the sharp not running prop blades it cuts off.

Braid is stronger, wears better and lasts longer than steel but cuts easily. Braid is not effected by a bad boat electrical charge but neither does it gain from a good one as steel does. Braid adds more to blow back than steel.

For really deep fishing, steel is far better because it tends to be thinner than braid and because steel adds several pounds of weight which does make a difference for countering blowback when fishing really deep.

Certainly not anti regular speed riggers. I run them at times as well as the HP’s. I would say the reg speeds are a little more reliable but Scotty has been working hard on the HP design and have made some improvements over the first generation so I think it is very close now. The HP’s are less forgiving than the Reg’s. If you are not careful with the green button when you are past the stops and redo your connections on occasion you will lose balls as they put a lot more stress on the gear with all that power, especially if you jam the terminal rigger gear into the pulley.

I will sometimes put a HP on one side for me and a Reg speed on the other side for people not use to HP’s. If you are only fishing 20 to 65 feet or so there is not a lot of advantage to the HP unless you are in some high cost derby and the bite comes on for a short time, or you have a double header of large ones and want the riggers out of the way asap, then I guess every second counts.

I am out to the Scotty Factory frequently and they tell me that the reg speed rigger is designed for a max ball weight of 15lbs and the HP a max weight of 20 lbs. If you insist on going over spec. I think there is more leeway with the HP than there is with the Reg speed. In fact slowing the HP down a little makes it more user error forgiving. Sure you can put more weight on but the reg speed Scotty is a slug at 15 or more and slow at 10lbs, although if you use braid I guess you lose the extra weight of the cable which may help a little. Going heavy on a rigger not designed for it is going to cause excess wear and more frequent failures, the logic of that is inescapable. It does not mean you can’t do it.

Once you are use to the HP’s you won’t go back especially for fishing deep and there is not much difference in purchase cost. If your down 250 feet on a Reg speed you feel like you have time to go to the galley and make lunch but on the high speed you look up and its up. The only thing to be careful with is that HPs draw a lot more amps. I run duel batteries and a kicker with an 11 amp charging system and have never come close to having a problem.
 
Thanks, Rockfish,
That was helpful. I have Cannon's. I bought them, because that is what my parents had on their boat on lake Mich., when I was young.

I am thinking about selling them and getting Scotty's. My problem with the Cannon's is that with braid, which I am running, is that the auto up feature doesn't work. I have to manually hold the up switch till the ball is at the surface. That is a pain! The cable/braid is also likely to jump the pulley and I have to fix it.

Also, you can just about buy Scotty parts anywhere.

Your discussion about the HP Scotty is great.
Thanks.
 
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I am not anti braid. In fact I tend to use braid on one side and steel on the other because of the layout of the rigger mounts on my boat (pretty far forward) and I have a nasty tendency to turn a little tight at times in the nasty Sooke current. When on the kicker the main is down for use as a rudder and on occasion the rigger cable on that side will go up over and behind the prop and hang there. If it’s steel cable you bring up the main and lift it off with the boat hook. If it’s braid and gets anywhere near the sharp not running prop blades it cuts off.

I lost more gear with steel then braid

Braid adds more to blow back than steel.

I have less blow back with braid

For really deep fishing, steel is far better because it tends to be thinner than braid and because steel adds several pounds of weight which does make a difference for countering blowback when fishing really deep.

My braided is twice as thin as cable..... What are you looking at when shopping for braid? Gangon?

I will sometimes put a HP on one side for me and a Reg speed on the other side for people not use to HP’s. If you are only fishing 20 to 65 feet or so there is not a lot of advantage to the HP unless you are in some high cost derby and the bite comes on for a short time, or you have a double header of large ones and want the riggers out of the way asap, then I guess every second counts.

You don't see the advantage? Don't you teach your friends how to properly use the gear you have on board.. Do you give your guests keyhole life jackets to wear well you use an inflatable?

I am out to the Scotty Factory frequently and they tell me that the reg speed rigger is designed for a max ball weight of 15lbs and the HP a max weight of 20 lbs.

Didn't you say on a thread just weeks ago that the old riggers were only capable of lifting 12's?

I think there is more leeway with the HP than there is with the Reg speed.

The old reg. speed riggers will handle 20's and I have seen the HP's already pull over 20 plus weeds dragging them down even more.

In fact slowing the HP down a little makes it more user error forgiving.

I'd call it user friendly

Sure you can put more weight on but the reg speed Scotty is a slug at 15 or more and slow at 10lbs

Are your riggers broken? I've been running 13-15 pound weights for years at 200+ ft and my riggers are far from slugs.

Although if you use braid I guess you lose the extra weight of the cable which may help a little.

Wet braid or steel I can't see it making much of a difference. When I switched to braid I didn't notice a speed change.

Going heavy on a rigger not designed for it is going to cause excess wear and more frequent failures, the logic of that is inescapable. It does not mean you can’t do it.

Guys have been using this gear for years with out any known failure do to cannonballs or cable use as far as I know.

If your down 250 feet on a Reg speed you feel like you have time to go to the galley and make lunch

It hard enough to keep up with them let alone trying to keep up with the HP's. You using high speed reels or knucklebustrs?
 
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FA; You asked me some direct why questions. I took the time to answer based on my experience with deep water fishing and HP’s. You seemed to have got yourself all worked up and seem to be looking for a fight. Your not going to get one out of me as I know when I would be wasting my time. I won’t be responding to you further and please don’t mis- quote me in the future. You have a nice night now.
 
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