Int'l Pacific Halibut Commission Annual Meeting - Victoria, Mon thru Fri

I think you're already too late if you truly believe one license for all. You do realize there are resident and non resident licenses. There are annual, 3 day and weekly licenses. There are commercial and sport fishing licenses.

I'm full aware that there are different licensees. We do separate Canadians from non-Canadians. We also separate the public based on "time" and we do separate the commercial fishing business from the public. I have add that DFO has also tried to separate the public into two classes with it's "Experimental Program" So you see that option already is there for anyone else to take.

So I doubt you'll get your Orwellian dream of one size fits all. I guess as you point out it would be simple if everyone was the same but that already is not the case.

Animal Farm showed us that when the original goal of "all men are equal" gets subverted to "all men are equal, except some are more equal" by the powers that be through paperwork. While some will follow along some of us will fight. Two classes of "Canadian Recreational Fishermen" is a dangerous path to take.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

As for money entering into it, it already does. Not everyone can afford a boat or a thousand dollars for a guide.
Not sure how this enters your argument but it's been used by the commercials to justify their position of bringing the resource to the public. Only problem with that is they don't tell you what public they are bringing it to. Data that I have seen says it's the American public as that's where the vast amount goes.
 
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So if we already have different licensing, why not look at an option to tie shorter licenses to a slightly higher quota? I'm guessing that most anglers who use guides don't buy an annual license nor do most who visit for a week of fishing and isn't this the crux of the disagreement, locals vs visitors. I mean seriously is it your point that locals need to catch as many fish everyday for 6 months as a guy does on a few days of a visit. I personally think that's greedy! I agree though I can't win this argument, some people are to entrenched to look at different solutions. On that note we can agree to disagree on the solution

Nothing wrong with bringing new ideas to the table and I welcome them as that's where creative solution come from.
 
I'm full aware that there are different licensees. We do separate Canadians from non-Canadians. We also separate the public based on "time" and we do separate the commercial fishing business from the public. I have add that DFO has also tried to separate the public into two classes with it's "Experimental Program" So you see that option already is there for anyone else to take.



Animal Farm showed us that when the original goal of "all men are equal" gets subverted to "all men are equal, except some are more equal" by the powers of be through paperwork. While some will follow along some of us will fight. Two classes of "Canadian Recreational Fishermen" is a dangerous path to take.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm


Not sure how this enters your argument but it's been used by the commercials to justify their position of bringing the resource to the public. Only problem with that is they don't tell you what public they are bringing it to. Data that I have seen says it's the American public as that's where the vast amount goes.
Maybe re read your post I replied to you brought up money, not me?
 
You know what guys should be able to take home 2 fish and the 2nd shouldn't be limited to 12 pounds its BS what's going on right now for everyone. Im worried about my 6 month season other guys are worried they can only come home with 1 fish from their once a year trip.

Maybe short duration lic could have a higher possession limit. They would need to track it so an individual can't buy multiple week license and exceed his annual limit though. It's not going to be a bad year whatever happens but I'm glad action is being taken right now because at the rate this is going we are in for this every year.
 
You know what guys should be able to take home 2 fish and the 2nd shouldn't be limited to 12 pounds its BS what's going on right now for everyone. Im worried about my 6 month season other guys are worried they can only come home with 1 fish from their once a year trip.

Maybe short duration lic could have a higher possession limit. They would need to track it so an individual can't buy multiple week license and exceed his annual limit though. It's not going to be a bad year whatever happens but I'm glad action is being taken right now because at the rate this is going we are in for this every year.
I suggested that but I guess only you and I think its a good idea.
 
Alaska seperates guides and recreational anglers when splitting tac. It's being done.
How is that working out for Area 2C?
That area is right next door to us in area 2B.
Can you give us the details for daily and possession limits for Charter vers Rec.
I don't know much about Alaska rules but I recall there was a lot of winners and losers when they made the switch.
 
The problem here is fairly simple. We face another year of low abundance, and were fortunate enough to get the same TAC as last season. That is 1,080,450. It is a hard cap. We will not be able to exceed that as in prior years. Last year even with the 1:2 slot restriction we fished our TAC prior to predictions. While the causes are extremely difficult to model, DFO assessed the probable causes as:

1. Increase in ave size likely by 5% - models did not factor in anticipated growth in individual halibut size as noted by IHPC set line survey data and also commercial stats.

2. Increase in effort - the model used to predict our fishery was static, meaning it did not account for shifts in angling effort.

3. Changes in angler behavior - targeting larger fish.

DFO determined that without the slot we would have fished the TAC out by early August.

Looking forward to 2013 with the same (actually smaller) TAC as 2012 it doesn't require rocket surgery to figure out we cannot expect a full season (March - Dec) by even carrying on with the hated 1:2 slot. If we value a long season (that seems to be what most are saying), then you then need to considering regulatory options which further restrict the exploitation rate in order to spread the rate of catch out over that season's length.

This is where the devil is truly in the detail. It is practically impossible to model such things as human behavior and the changing biology of fish. Selecting a regulatory option that further restricts the sport fleet such that it delivers a full season is analogous to jumping from a plane at 30,000 feet and hitting a bulls eye the size of a basket ball.

To illustrate, the TAC is 1,080,450 pounds, and last season we caught 1,157,879 pounds (an overage of 73K). Last season's catch was 74,157 fish, divided by the total pounds is an average weight of 15.61 pounds. If you shift angler effort to simply target larger fish (only one variable we are modelling here, not multiple ones) the impact on season length becomes dramatic. So multiply 74,157 fish by an average weight of 18 pounds (modest increase), the total catch in pounds is 1,408,983. Result = early season ending with slight shift (3 pounds per fish) in catch effort.


Compared another way the same example, last year we caught on average of 2,852 fish per week. At 18 pounds (just 3 pounds per fish more than what was actually caught in 2012), that works out to a weekly catch of 51,339 pounds per week, divided by the TAC = 21 weeks total season or 5 weeks shorter season than in 2012.

So the problem really is that small changes can have a dramatic affect on how quickly we run out the TAC. That is the danger of 1:1 - if we increase the average size of fish caught only slightly it will be a short season. Easy to predict with 1:1 anglers will target large fish, and hammer our spawning females. No one wants that result - I hope.

Running a season with a split in 1:2 then backing down to 1:1 could create a gold rush and see us catching our fish early, resulting in an August closure unless we can somehow restrict when the season started to delay the gold rush.

I could critique any option you might select - the problem with each is they will restrict anglers, change their habits and no one wants to accept changes to what they are doing.

Now comes the complex part of the problem. Imagine trying to make a decision on a regulations option that delivers a long season and meets the desires of every angler....impossible...or like threading an elephant through the eye of a needle. Messy.

So regardless of whatever decision the SFAB comes up with, let's remember the complexity of reaching those decisions and respect the SFAB process and those working within it - they are working for all of us trying to make an impossible decision that will never please every angler's desires. I sat in a room full of guys last night going over every option with a fine toothed comb, and in the end we realized that whatever decision is reached it will be a pick of the best of a bunch of bad choices. We left there realizing how difficult the choices would be, and we plan to fully support whatever decision the SFAB arrives at.
 
I'll support it as long as it isn't 1/1 all season...

And Alaskan limits on charters depend by area, 2C which I believe is SE ? I know SE has a reverse slot and guided anglers are allowed 1 fish per day, NO POSSESSION LIMIT, so if a guy takes a 3 day charter, he can catch 3 halibut. Up a lil farther in Alaska (not too far north) it's 2 per day, no size limit, and NO POSSESSION limit once again. Not sure what the non guided limits are...
 
The problem here is fairly simple. We face another year of low abundance, and were fortunate enough to get the same TAC as last season. That is 1,080,450. It is a hard cap. We will not be able to exceed that as in prior years. Last year even with the 1:2 slot restriction we fished our TAC prior to predictions. While the causes are extremely difficult to model, DFO assessed the probable causes as:

1. Increase in ave size likely by 5% - models did not factor in anticipated growth in individual halibut size as noted by IHPC set line survey data and also commercial stats.

2. Increase in effort - the model used to predict our fishery was static, meaning it did not account for shifts in angling effort.

3. Changes in angler behavior - targeting larger fish.

DFO determined that without the slot we would have fished the TAC out by early August.

Looking forward to 2013 with the same (actually smaller) TAC as 2012 it doesn't require rocket surgery to figure out we cannot expect a full season (March - Dec) by even carrying on with the hated 1:2 slot. If we value a long season (that seems to be what most are saying), then you then need to considering regulatory options which further restrict the exploitation rate in order to spread the rate of catch out over that season's length.

This is where the devil is truly in the detail. It is practically impossible to model such things as human behavior and the changing biology of fish. Selecting a regulatory option that further restricts the sport fleet such that it delivers a full season is analogous to jumping from a plane at 30,000 feet and hitting a bulls eye the size of a basket ball.

To illustrate, the TAC is 1,080,450 pounds, and last season we caught 1,157,879 pounds (an overage of 73K). Last season's catch was 74,157 fish, divided by the total pounds is an average weight of 15.61 pounds. If you shift angler effort to simply target larger fish (only one variable we are modelling here, not multiple ones) the impact on season length becomes dramatic. So multiply 74,157 fish by an average weight of 18 pounds (modest increase), the total catch in pounds is 1,408,983. Result = early season ending with slight shift (3 pounds per fish) in catch effort.


Compared another way the same example, last year we caught on average of 2,852 fish per week. At 18 pounds (just 3 pounds per fish more than what was actually caught in 2012), that works out to a weekly catch of 51,339 pounds per week, divided by the TAC = 21 weeks total season or 5 weeks shorter season than in 2012.

So the problem really is that small changes can have a dramatic affect on how quickly we run out the TAC. That is the danger of 1:1 - if we increase the average size of fish caught only slightly it will be a short season. Easy to predict with 1:1 anglers will target large fish, and hammer our spawning females. No one wants that result - I hope.

Running a season with a split in 1:2 then backing down to 1:1 could create a gold rush and see us catching our fish early, resulting in an August closure unless we can somehow restrict when the season started to delay the gold rush.

I could critique any option you might select - the problem with each is they will restrict anglers, change their habits and no one wants to accept changes to what they are doing.

Now comes the complex part of the problem. Imagine trying to make a decision on a regulations option that delivers a long season and meets the desires of every angler....impossible...or like threading an elephant through the eye of a needle. Messy.

So regardless of whatever decision the SFAB comes up with, let's remember the complexity of reaching those decisions and respect the SFAB process and those working within it - they are working for all of us trying to make an impossible decision that will never please every angler's desires. I sat in a room full of guys last night going over every option with a fine toothed comb, and in the end we realized that whatever decision is reached it will be a pick of the best of a bunch of bad choices. We left there realizing how difficult the choices would be, and we plan to fully support whatever decision the SFAB arrives at.

Thanks for this Pat. Best illustration I have seen to date to describe how hard this really is.
And yes, as I said earlier today. I am glad we have the people we do have, to be at the head of this thing.

I may not end up agreeing with the end choice. If I do not, and I am really honest with myself, it will probably be for a personal reason (ie. how it directly affects me) It definitely will not be because I do not think they a have the big picture and the majority of anglers in mind when they decided. Nor will I appreciate their efforts less.
 
Jerry there are difference between Alaska and BC.
The halibut in Alaska are a state owned resource, or you can say, owned by the Alaskan public and managed by the Gov. (not 100% positive)
The halibut in BC are owned by all Canadians and managed by our federal government (DFO).
The wild game in BC are owned by the people of BC and are managed by the provincial government.
So when you compare residents between these three examples you can see where the problems can occur. How do we make it fair for all Canadians? The term resident or local means all Canadians when we talk about Halibut. These are why the folks that are deciding our solution are having to make the tough calls. They have to find a way to make it fair for everyone, not just for us locals here on the coast.

Alaska is having issues... Have a look at this links
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/artic...-2-flatfish-limit-southcentral-alaska-anglers
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaskas-mafia-style-fisheries-management
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/artic...-force-southeast-alaska-charters-out-business

I'm sure we in Canada can do better.
 
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Thanks for this Pat. Best illustration I have seen to date to describe how hard this really is.
And yes, as I said earlier today. I am glad we have the people we do have, to be at the head of this thing.

I may not end up agreeing with the end choice. If I do not, and I am really honest with myself, it will probably be for a personal reason (ie. how it directly affects me) It definitely will not be because I do not think they a have the big picture and the majority of anglers in mind when they decided. Nor will I appreciate their efforts less.

You got it my my friend.... Thumbs up
 
I think it is ludicrous to suggest local and resident are interchangeable is, it likely someone from Halifax is going to drag his boat out here every weekend? Realistically do you think that people thousands of miles away will exert the same pressure on the resource? I also fail to see why a state managed fishery has to be different than a federally managed one? As for the red herring about making the resource available to all Canadians, isn't that the commercial argument? It's BS there and it's BS here, in my opinion, it is more like sell a service to all Canadians . I don't hear anyone on here suggesting that after they catch a halibut, they won't take another until every other Canadian catches theirs. I don't see anyone offering free fishing for those who can't afford a boat.
 
I think it is ludicrous to suggest local and resident are interchangeable is, it likely someone from Halifax is going to drag his boat out here every weekend? Realistically do you think that people thousands of miles away will exert the same pressure on the resource? I also fail to see why a state managed fishery has to be different than a federally managed one? As for the red herring about making the resource available to all Canadians, isn't that the commercial argument? It's BS there and it's BS here, in my opinion, it is more like sell a service to all Canadians . I don't hear anyone on here suggesting that after they catch a halibut, they won't take another until every other Canadian catches theirs. I don't see anyone offering free fishing for those who can't afford a boat.

Perhaps I'm not clear..... Let me try this
Alaska Halibut are owned by the people of Alaska
BC Halibut are owned by the people of Canada
Way easy for Alaska to separate residence (Alaskan) from no-residence (lower 48 Americans and Canadians).
 
Perhaps I'm not clear..... Let me try this
Alaska Halibut are owned by the people of Alaska
BC Halibut are owned by the people of Canada
Way easy for Alaska to sepaate residence (Alaskan) from no-residence (lower 48 Americans and Canadians).
can't argue with you there. My suggestion was not based strictly on resident non resident. But rather on short term category of license which would allow those who come out for a week per year for a guided or non guided trip to perhaps catch a few more fish in their limited time on the water. I used local in the context of those who can jump in their boat here and fish whenever. Just because we have a licensing process in place now doesn't mean it's the right one. If status quo is going to be the answer because everything else is too hard, then I see no point in this discussion. Maybe I'm being rude here in not asking you what your solution is. If so I apologize. Also in the interest of full disclosure, I am a boat owner, strictly a recreational angler who takes three or four halibut a year. I say that because it maybe why we see things differently. Anyway I respect right to see things differently.
 
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Problem with allowing non-resident anglers to catch more during a short stay is that could drive up your use of the TAC considerably. The QCI for example is 44% by weight of the overall Area 2b TAC. Those are largely non-resident (not locals) anglers from B.C., Canada and the rest of the world. If you allow them to take more than the possession limit set for "residents" (using Ziggy's definition), be that 1 or 2 fish, on a short trip (most are in the lodges for 3 to 5 days), then TAC exploitation will climb considerably. This is a complex fishery. Small changes in habits = big changes in TAC exploitation, which was the point I was making by showing the impact of a small increase in average weight of fish landed. There are way too many variables to be able to completely forecast the exploitation rate of each potential choice, but some do jump out as more problematic than others. There are no easy solutions as far as regulating our use of this season's TAC - so whatever the SFAB decides is good with me.

As Ray keeps pointing out, the real answer is in dealing with the ITQ and our allocation. The regulations stuff is just window dressing around the real issue.
 
Compared another way the same example, last year we caught on average of 2,852 fish per week. At 18 pounds (just 3 pounds per fish more than what was actually caught in 2012), that works out to a weekly catch of 51,339 pounds per week, divided by the TAC = 21 weeks total season or 5 weeks shorter season than in 2012.


The way I see it is a majority of the quota gets caught in June, July & August and the "average" weekly catch early in the season is much lower, so it would be more closer to a 2 week shorter season than 2012.
 
Good or bad news you decide,,SFAB reccomendations for DFO ,,,1 fish a day 2 possesion of which 1 must be 83cm/15lbs or less and the second can only be a max of 126cm /60lbs and an annual limit of 6 per person,your SFAB has spoken
 
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