Building Permits.

[Newf]

I know that there are builders on this forum so wanted some insight into a couple of questions I have.

I have someone who is close to me that has been for the last several months trying to buy a house in Vancouver. They recently found an older house that says in the listing details that it was stripped to the walls and refinished including electrical and plumbing. They were interested. They were allowed to do a pre-inspection of the place before offers were to be accepted.

On the day of the inspection they arrived and on the door there was a notice to stop work or something to that effect, placed there by whomever from the city. After contacts between the different realtors it was identified that this house had been redone without any permits. This was not noted in the listing details. After contacting the mortgage broker they found out that they and most likely no one, would not provide a mortgage without the city approving the work that was done.

Questions: Is this a common practice in Vancouver to fully renovate a house without permits? Why would a contractor or the home owner do this?

They are still going to be taking offers on this place so if they get an offer subject to the permits issue being addressed, how long could this take?

How would the city go about approving work in a house that they can no longer see? (Plumbing, electrical behind drywall for example)

Just looking for info that could help if the decision making process. Any insight would be very much appreciated.

 

[Newf]

Also---How did the city find out that this place had the reno's done without permits if it was not disclosed in the listing details?? Do they have someone who reviews listings?

 

[Skins88]

I'm a plumber. So I can address the work done behind drywall. The AHJ (inspector) can ask to see all the work. If that means removing drywall, dirt, concrete etc then so be it. I've had inspectors let me slide on this if I can show photos and a test on the work. I would not assume anything though without talking to an inspector first.

 

[Rain City]

I know that there are builders on this forum so wanted some insight into a couple of questions I have.

I have someone who is close to me that has been for the last several months trying to buy a house in Vancouver. They recently found an older house that says in the listing details that it was stripped to the walls and refinished including electrical and plumbing. They were interested. They were allowed to do a pre-inspection of the place before offers were to be accepted.

On the day of the inspection they arrived and on the door there was a notice to stop work or something to that effect, placed there by whomever from the city. After contacts between the different realtors it was identified that this house had been redone without any permits. This was not noted in the listing details. After contacting the mortgage broker they found out that they and most likely no one, would not provide a mortgage without the city approving the work that was done.

Questions: Is this a common practice in Vancouver to fully renovate a house without permits? Why would a contractor or the home owner do this?

They are still going to be taking offers on this place so if they get an offer subject to the permits issue being addressed, how long could this take?

How would the city go about approving work in a house that they can no longer see? (Plumbing, electrical behind drywall for example)

Just looking for info that could help if the decision making process. Any insight would be very much appreciated.

Depends on what they figure was done without permits. Any kind of renovation can trigger the need to update past work that was determined to have been done without permits. This is especially true in situations where someone is caught doing something like this. Best case, they can get plumbing and electrical permits and the inspectors will just come out for insections and ask to see some of the work behind the walls. Worst case, they have to get a full building permit and the value of that work triggers upgrades to envelope, sprinklers, sewer and water hook-ups, engineers drawings and sign off. That would take a few months to get the drawings together, a few months to get any kind of response from the city and then however much time was needed to do the work. The permits alone could even take up to 6 months or more depending on how many issues they find and how qualified the person getting the permits is. I tried to renovate my basement bathroom and the city made me get a permit for an addition that was built in the 70s. They used the house next door and google street view to determine that it wasn't original. Cost me 12k in permits and in the end the inspectors didn't ask to see anything other than the engineers memo that it looked sound. This took a lot of convincing by me. This sounds like a nightmare.

 

[wildmanyeah]

When I got quotes for my bathroom Reno I asked the contractors if they would need to to get permits. The answer I got was “technically yes but no one does”.

thst being said a total Reno job with no permits would scare me away.

also I could not get house insurance without a, housing inspection. Doing the house inspection they found aluminium wiring. That then resulted in getting an electrical inspection that then determined that only one circit was aluminum and it was discontinued from the panel.

 

[Aquaholic]

I am a Realtor in Vancouver, and I come across this often. Depending on the level of the work done, often you can disclose it in writing as a material latent defect before anyone makes an offer, and the sale usually goes ahead. You should get an insurance binder confirmed beforehand though due to the work being unauthorized, and usually it is a condition of sale, or done beforehand if multiple offers are happening.

However, to the specific point of how did the city find out, it is usually a neighbour that does the complaining, and after the listing came out on the MLS with all of the descriptive details including all the work done to it being stripped to the studs.

Rain City mentioned Google (or Van Map) photos being used to determine unauthorized additions, another thing they look for this way is trees that have been removed around the yard. This often comes back at the design review process during a building permit application.

 

[Fishalot]

Interesting, when I did my bathrooms reno in Squamish the municipality told me no permits were required if fixtures were not being relocated.

 

[seahorse]

Very interesting topic, I am currently building a tractor shop on my farm in Courtenay. I phoned the Regional District Planners last year to inquire what permits I needed and they said none needed as it’s an agriculture building, they just mentioned to be 4.5 meters from my side property line. Yesterday I get a visit from the RD building officer as someone complained about the walls going up I guess they saw them last Friday as we were framing. He mentioned that they have to investigate all complaints. He just wanted to confirm from me that no permit was required which is a little odd. You would think he had that information available to him with a little research on his end at the office.

 

[Gong Show]

First place I bought in Campbell River did not have final or occupancy!
I was told that is normal for the area and a house of that age.

That is a bit different than the red notice on the door though!

 

[Carmanah]

I got a story when my wife and I decided to buy a house in the fall of 2014 we had a budget of 400k max and we were hoping to keep it between 300-350(North Cowichan) at the time there were many properties in this price range.

The first weekend we were to view houses 3 out of 3 had accepted offers on the friday so we had to come up with 3 different houses short notice so we picked a small acreage listed at 400k because we wanted to compare conditions and what not, this house apparently had a suite waiting to be finished in the basement, when we showed up to view the house there was a hand written note saying that they will give 20k cash to the buyer to finish the suite as it was just untaped boarded. The basement was not setup properly for a suite mostly plumbing issues and we were not super interested in tenants either. So we put an offer in on the place at 370k and it was accepted leaving 2 weeks for some inspection conditions like septic/well/review the permits that have been pulled on the property.

All the initial on site inspections went off without a hitch the house was in okay condition when considering the age(no red flags) we had financing and insurance lined up the last thing we were too do was visit with a building inspector and review any permits. Well that is when the bomb was dropped the home owner was growing dope and the occupancy was pulled in the summer. There were documents for all the remediation work and what had been done by a few different contractors, inspection reports and what not. None of this was disclosed to us by either the seller or the sellers realtor. What happened next was we lost both our lender and insurance which caused us to extended subjects to start that process again and we ended up settling with the seller for 360k.

Anyway my point is that you have to do your work and you can't really anyone including the Municipal building authority they are only interested in saving themselves. Even though the inspections were all passed and the air quality was good we still struggled to find insurance and we paid a bit of a premium for the first few years we lived here. Also I have been doing some renovations in my basement this last winter getting it finished and its obvious that the inspection missed a few critical structural issues like a bearing wall being removed and replaced 4' off the joist splice that should have been obvious when the framing/vapor barrier inspections were done.

I wish I had inspiring advice for you but my take away is you cant trust anyone in regards to this all the inspectors who were around in 2014 are long gone and my only recourse if something happened that was a loss would be suing the municipality.

 

[Newf]

Thanks for the responses everyone. In my post I noted it was stripped to the walls,,,,should have said the walls were stripped to the studs.

I was in Vancouver on the weekend and got a chance to look at this place at an open house on Sunday. From what you can see it appears to have been well done but obviously you can't see behind the walls. I guess we will wait to see what happens. Offers are being accepted tomorrow so they will make it a condition of sale in their offer that all of this will have to be dealt with. The current owner wants to stay there until the end of July I think so if they have the successful offer/bid they want to be able to walk away if this has not been addressed by then.

It seems that the permit system can vary from place to place but find it crazy that anyone would tackle a full Reno like that without permits and then try to sell the place.

I feel for anyone trying to get a place in that crazy market but I'm sure it's not only Vancouver that is like this. Places are listed low to create more interest and bidding. They have been involved in 4 places so far. One had a bully bid, the other 2 and multiply offers and went 300 to 500K above list and now this fiasco. But the market and selling tactics is a different topic for another day

Thanks again for the feedback on permit issues.
Newf.

 

[trophywife]

dealing with one on W33 rd... failure to disclose home improvements over a certain amount. red carded 2 years after completion- Triggered storm and sewer separation, new main sump outside, interior sump decommission, upgrade water main. The landscape and walkways finish that are needing to be disturbed in the process are daunting alone, and have zero impact on the cities expectation at this point. I am going with open another permit for a lane-way way house:]
that should slow things down. lol

 

[wildmanyeah]

Thanks for the responses everyone. In my post I noted it was stripped to the walls,,,,should have said the walls were stripped to the studs.

I was in Vancouver on the weekend and got a chance to look at this place at an open house on Sunday. From what you can see it appears to have been well done but obviously you can't see behind the walls. I guess we will wait to see what happens. Offers are being accepted tomorrow so they will make it a condition of sale in their offer that all of this will have to be dealt with. The current owner wants to stay there until the end of July I think so if they have the successful offer/bid they want to be able to walk away if this has not been addressed by then.

It seems that the permit system can vary from place to place but find it crazy that anyone would tackle a full Reno like that without permits and then try to sell the place.

I feel for anyone trying to get a place in that crazy market but I'm sure it's not only Vancouver that is like this. Places are listed low to create more interest and bidding. They have been involved in 4 places so far. One had a bully bid, the other 2 and multiply offers and went 300 to 500K above list and now this fiasco. But the market and selling tactics is a different topic for another day

Thanks again for the feedback on permit issues.
Newf.

It makes me sick to the stomach thinking about moving in this market

 

[RiverBoy]

First place I bought in Campbell River did not have final or occupancy!
I was told that is normal for the area and a house of that age.

That is a bit different than the red notice on the door though!

Yes but the City of Campbell River is an absolute, unmitigated disaster. I have never in all my years of contracting dealt with such an inept staff in my life. Red tape, horrifying inspectors, it goes on and on. i have so many horror stories dealing with city staff and their archaic policies

 

[Stizzla]

Funny each municipality is so different. Some have the most chill inspectors and some are looking for problems that aren’t even supposed to be on their radar. I prefer the “experienced” inspectors. They’ve seen it all and have less to prove.

As for my input on this thread. I would not be comfortable buying or selling a house without permits. They are there for a reason and if people are too cheap to spent $2,000 on a permit, how good is the quality of the renovation going to be?

who wants to see my upcoming before and after renderings of a renovation coming soon? (It’s currently in for permits)

 

[RiverBoy]

Usually if you’re touching something you shouldn’t be ( electrical, plumbing, HVAC major structural) you should be hiring a pro and pulling permits. based o the fact this place was stripped to the walls and no permits pulled i would be running; not walking away.

 

[Newf]

Usually if you’re touching something you shouldn’t be ( electrical, plumbing, HVAC major structural) you should be hiring a pro and pulling permits. based o the fact this place was stripped to the walls and no permits pulled i would be running; not walking away.

They were told by the realtor that the work was done by contractors and not the owner himself. In a case like this where a major Reno was done, who would normally pull the different permits,,,the owner or the different contractors??

 

[wildmanyeah]

If you touch anything on your property odds are your municipality has rules for what you can and cant do. Cant plant a tree within x meters of the fence, if a tree is growing on the property line then its consider a shared tree and both you and your neighbour have to agree with what to do with it, Fence has to be X meters tall, Cant chop a tree down without a permit, If your making a retaining wall over .6M need a building permit, If your bring in fill need environmental and a building permit ect ect ect....

If the everyone in the City actually did what was in their bylaws i'm 100% convinced they would need to hire thousands of more inspection staff.

 

[Rain City]

They were told by the realtor that the work was done by contractors and not the owner himself. In a case like this where a major Reno was done, who would normally pull the different permits,,,the owner or the different contractors??

Owner is responsible 100%

 

[wildmanyeah]

When we got our electrical inspection done there was a laundry list of things to get done if we wanted cheaper insurance, One of the things was to wire the smoke detectors together. The wiring above the fume hood that went though the cabinet needed to be protected/enclosed, Gas line not bonded, No GFI in the laundry room, 240 volt mising tie bars, bonding screw not removed, no visual trip on the breakers, breakers warn out., warn our receptacles ect ect ect