Chinook fishery to close ???

[scott craven]

Pro, that's a big sacrifice for the long term benefit of Chinook salmon.
I admire your determination.
Now we can only hope the challenge is taken seriously.

 

[profisher]

Craven...I'm happy to see that I have support and that it seems I wouldn't be the loan boat willingly parked if this were ever taken seriously and implemented. It is encouraging to know it many rec fishers do put conservation first and that it is not just lip service.

 

[chris73]

My sacrifice would be minor compared to Rollies and many other businesses that rely on attractive sportfishing and tourism based on that. This would be an immense sacrifice by the entire coastal economy and it may drive a number of businesses to the brink of existence if not beyond. Without the prized Chinook and with a severely reduced halibut fishery our waters will be good for a nice boat ride only. Especially JDF. I will bring my little sacrifice too but I am very concerned for others and for our coast. And honestly, I do not believe that this proposal has a real chance of getting realized. It's a wishful theory I believe. I cannot see all user groups agreeing with each other for once. But as a bluff it may have the publicity effect we need.

 

[Tips Up]

When is the Albion Test Fishery to take place and when are the results expected to be announced?

Thanks
Tips

 

[chris73]

I believe they said June?

 

[Charlie]

Charlie, all I'm saying is that I'm willing to shut my 26 year business and life long passion down if it means getting the nets out of the Fraser River for a period of time to give the fish a chance. The FN leaders are painting us as greedy non caring users and themselves as the great salmon guardians. My letter hopefully puts some doubt in the minds of those who get to read it. It is very hard to get anything in print that questions the FN bands, I think this letter has a chance of going to print and the message is a good one.

Rollie, I appreciate what you are stating! What I am trying to tell you I pulled the current numbers. The ones DFO is telling everyone they don't have! Well, they do have them! Look at those numbers closer! DFO is wanting to shut down Area 19 and 20 and I have to call BS and ask - WHY! According to their own numbers and what they will try to tell you is the sport sector harvested approximately 30% of the Nicola stock- So, the sport has an impact; however, look on the maps and see where those fish where caught! Area 19 and 20 was only responsible for FOUR (4) of those 72 CWT recovered since 2009 (there might be more, I didn't double check). So, while DFO is going to tell everyone the sport sector in Areas 19 and 20 are responsible for approximately 18% of the sport catch, what they are NOT going to tell YOU is that Area 19 and 20 is only responsible for approximately, ready - ONLY 0.056% to the TOTAL Nicola harvested! They need to come up with antoher "game plan" as THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION for only the sport sector in Areaa 19 and 20 to be SHUT DOWN!

Oh forgot... it appears DFO is forgetting to mention the 42% of those recovered CWT were from commercial.

 

[profisher]

We know this is all BS and it has more to do with politics than anything else...old news. This about having the balls to do something that might force a hand and actually start some serious dialog and spark some real action of towards a real and permanent solution. I'm tired of being told every year that things are worse and cut backs are needed. I can't run a business with that kind of uncertainty, so I'm going all in to get real change. There are lots of other problems...habitat, farms, viruses etc etc...I'm taking on the nets in the river...Charlie I'll leave you with the farms!!

 

[Tips Up]

Chris
I "heard" end of April at the last SFAB meeting. Which is not very specific
You "heard" June. Which is a 30 day month.
I was looking for something more specific. Sounds like there is a scheduled test fishery and decision pending on these results.
In my business I work with strict deadlines.
I would assume DFO should be able to say test fishery is date X, Y, Z and we need X number of days to get the results and make announcement.
They should be able to put a date to the decision. It is this sort of action that shows there incompetance and creates the unknown for booking business, derbies, holidays...

Tips

 

[chris73]

I hear you tips. Here is what I remember from the recent meeting (didn't take actual notes): DFO will have their management regimes (remember, 1 being the worst case scenario - stocks @ less than 30k, 2 being so lala with stocks between 30k and 60k...) with action to be taken figured out by end of April and will let SFAB know of what's in each regime package. The determination of which regime will have to be followed is based on the outcome of the Albion test fishery in the lower Fraser. If you look at the Albion test records you will see that nothing really shows up until June in the Fraser. By the time the test fish show in the lower Fraser they are 1-2 weeks past us in JDF. So I'd say realistically they won't have any idea in what shape those stocks of concern show up until late June maybe. I totally agree, for any business and even for vacation planning this is totally useless information being told end of June that July and August will be closed. And by the way, if it shows the full blown crisis in late June, all the coastal fisheries have already taken a chunk out of it since everyone in the salt comes before the Albion test in the Fraser.

 

[Rockfish]

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/First+Nations+want+chinook+fight/6378290/story.html

It looks like some progress is being made. I don't think you would have seen this without the very large turn out at the Victoria meeting.

 

[Charlie]

We know this is all BS and it has more to do with politics than anything else...old news.

YEP, very "old news"!

This about having the balls to do something that might force a hand and actually start some serious dialog and spark some real action of towards a real and permanent solution.

I am "ALL" for "dialog"; I am "ALL" for "spark some real action of towards real and permanent solutione"

I'm tired of being told every year that things are worse and cut backs are needed. I can't run a business with that kind of uncertainty, so I'm going all in to get real change. There are lots of other problems...habitat, farms, viruses etc etc...I'm taking on the nets in the river..
.

Personally, "YOU" can get "tired of being told every year" and guess what, I am okay if "YOU" are... "I'm taking on the nets in the river..." That might be "YOUR" first mistake? I highly suggest that "YOU" take my advice and at least read the information I offered to send you concerning the "Sto: Lo." "YOU" might be surprised?

Charlie I'll leave you with the farms!!

That might be "YOUR" "SECOND" mistake - As I already know... "I" can't save "YOUR" salmon, ONLY "YOU" can do that... and "I" will support "YOU" to the END!

 

[rook 2]

Charlie, all I'm saying is that I'm willing to shut my 26 year business and life long passion down if it means getting the nets out of the Fraser River for a period of time to give the fish a chance. The FN leaders are painting us as greedy non caring users and themselves as the great salmon guardians. My letter hopefully puts some doubt in the minds of those who get to read it. It is very hard to get anything in print that questions the FN bands, I think this letter has a chance of going to print and the message is a good one.

i'm with you on that profisher

 

[Foxsea]

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/First+Nations+want+chinook+fight/6378290/story.html
It looks like some progress is being made. I don't think you would have seen this without the very large turn out at the Victoria meeting.

"We don't want to fight with them (sportsfishermen), we want to sit down and see how we can work together for conservation," said Ernie Crey, fisheries adviser to the Sto: lo Tribal Council. "To do that, we need to be in a room together." Technical staff and biologists from the bands and the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans should also be in attendance, Crey said.

Representatives of 94 bands met with DFO officials last week on the Tsawout reserve and signed a letter of understanding on salmon management. The letter "confirms their commitment to work together on a government-to-government basis." The co-operative management agreement is in contrast to an earlier meeting DFO held with angry sports fishers on southern Vancouver Island.

F.N.'s "work together for conservation"; have a "commitment to work together"; and a "cooperative management agreement" versus us ... the ... "angry sports fishers on southern V.I."

Does anyone else see that we've already lost this media war? The data and numbers do not matter a whit - see any numbers in the paper? Albion does not matter - see anything about Albion? That's 'way too complicated. Listen to the words Crey uses... "we don't want to fight; we want to sit down; we want to work together;"

Everyone understands cooperation and everyone understands angry. Forget the numbers, forget Albion - let's get "cooperative" and "work together for conservation." Let's get "in the room together." The longer we wait, debating, fuming and arguing, the more we will see slip away from us - fish and any control we might have had.

 

[searun]

Picking a fight with FN is not the answer. Sitting down and talking about what we both have in common and try to find a solution that can work for both parties and the fish is. Careful with the data Charlie, it is somewhat skewed by the location where the commercial troll fleet likes and/or is allowed to fish. That can skew the catch location picture. Key is to examine where the sport fishery intercepts these fish...but I think you may already suspect that. I'm not sure you have all the data that is available. We will get more at the upcoming SFAB meetings, and at that point it will be good to sift through the data to gain a better appreciation for the situation and management options being considered. I was also saying we need to be mindful that the final analysis of the run size will not be possible until the Albion test fishery data is compiled in mid to late June. No further restrictions may be necessary. I think our focus should be on contingency planning to find a way to inflict the least amount of pain possible to the fishery while also protecting the fish at risk.

 

[Big Green Machine]

Picking a fight with FN is not the answer. Sitting down and talking about what we both have in common and try to find a solution that can work for both parties and the fish is. Careful with the data Charlie, it is somewhat skewed by the location where the commercial troll fleet likes and/or is allowed to fish. That can skew the catch location picture. Key is to examine where the sport fishery intercepts these fish...but I think you may already suspect that. I'm not sure you have all the data that is available. We will get more at the upcoming SFAB meetings, and at that point it will be good to sift through the data to gain a better appreciation for the situation and management options being considered. I was also saying we need to be mindful that the final analysis of the run size will not be possible until the Albion test fishery data is compiled in mid to late June. No further restrictions may be necessary. I think our focus should be on contingency planning to find a way to inflict the least amount of pain possible to the fishery while also protecting the fish at risk.

Absolutely agree, its about finding a shared purpose, which is difficult but worth the effort. Excellent post my friend. I love the way you take the high road on these contentiuos topics.

 

[profisher]

Searun, I'm not satisfied with just protecting the fish that are left. That is far short of what any conscientious angler should accept from DFO. The time is long overdue for positive change by what ever means that will work to get these runs numbers back up to sustainable and healthy numbers. Obviously it is not just restricting the catch that will achieve this. But there has been enough talk and band aid BS for too long now. It is now time for action and results, or I fear it will be too late.

 

[Englishman]

Does anyone else see that we've already lost this media war? The data and numbers do not matter a whit - see any numbers in the paper? Albion does not matter - see anything about Albion? That's 'way too complicated. Listen to the words Crey uses... "we don't want to fight; we want to sit down; we want to work together;"

Got to take issue with you on that one Foxsea. Went it comes to conservation science, the numbers DO matter. The numbers are paramount because they represent FACTS, not OPINION. We don't have good numbers now and this is what we should be arguing, and challenging and demanding to get. From DFO, from Charlie's Web site sources, from anywhere, but we need the numbers.
For once conservation leaves the realm of science and data, and becomes merely a matter for posturing, and politics, media messages and nuances and we make "compromises", then it becomes doomed and we go the way of the East Coast cod. That fishery was sunk by politics not by science, and it should be a lesson for us all....... You CANNOT manage conservation in the political arena, because politics ignores and is anathema to ecology and nature, precisely BECAUSE the latter is complicated. But putting your head in the sand and just pretending that understanding that complexity is not a fundamental requirement is heading for disaster.........

 

[Foxsea]

Got to take issue with you on that one Foxsea. Went it comes to conservation science, the numbers DO matter. The numbers are paramount because they represent FACTS, not OPINION. We don't have good numbers now and this is what we should be arguing, and challenging and demanding to get. From DFO, from Charlie's Web site sources, from anywhere, but we need the numbers.
For once conservation leaves the realm of science and data, and becomes merely a matter for posturing, and politics, media messages and nuances and we make "compromises", then it becomes doomed and we go the way of the East Coast cod. That fishery was sunk by politics not by science, and it should be a lesson for us all....... You CANNOT manage conservation in the political arena, because politics ignores and is anathema to ecology and nature, precisely BECAUSE the latter is complicated. But putting your head in the sand and just pretending that understanding that complexity is not a fundamental requirement is heading for disaster.........

You have a good point. And I appreciate the intelligence behind your argument. Thanks for taking the time and effort.
I'll debate you on numbers = facts: You say - "From DFO, from Charlie's Web site sources, from anywhere, but we need the numbers." That statement does not build my confidence that the numbers are at all meaningful. There are liars, damned liars and then there are the DFO number crunchers and their statistics. I do not believe there is much veracity behind their numbers - How can they get the forecasts so incredibly wrong, year after year? And yet we want to give them the benefit of the doubt, thinking what they provide will be any more accurate this year than in the past? We cling to faint hope. As Profisher says* - working with what we may have is not good enough, anyway. We need to rebuild the stocks to abundance.

Numbers and statistics do not equal truth. They don't matter anymore to the general public or the media - it's all too often been massaged, spun and manipulated for political and corporate ends. Stand a room of forecasters end to end and they will never reach a conclusion. We've been tricked too many times with bogus numbers. We are all sceptics around the numbers, statistics and forecasts - for fish, the economy or the weather. And whether it's politics or public opinion, the group with the most compelling story will always win the hearts and minds.

Right now we do not have that ace. When the media portrays us as "angry sports fisherman" versus a pleading Ernie Crey, who only "wants to get us into a room - to cooperate on fish and conservation", etc. any argument from us, informed, even replete with numbers, is inconsequential. We need to build a constituency and some credibility in the media / public arena first, through being viewed as cooperative, reasonable men. Then, maybe, our numbers might mean something.

*Profisher said: "I'm not satisfied with just protecting the fish that are left. That is far short of what any conscientious angler should accept from DFO. The time is long overdue for positive change by what ever means that will work to get these runs numbers back up to sustainable and healthy numbers. Obviously it is not just restricting the catch that will achieve this. But there has been enough talk and band aid BS for too long now. It is now time for action and results, or I fear it will be too late."

 

[Charlie]

I would suggest NOT trying to DEMAND anything of the Sto:lo! Keep in mind, Ernie Crey is only a Senior Advisor, he advises and he does not run the Sto:lo Nation - that would be Grand Chief Pennier. Ernie Crey is just doing what he is being "told" to do! Maybe this will help?

"Grand Chief Pennier says that the Sto:lo Tribal Council is swinging into high gear, putting together a long-term strategy and roster of hardnosed tactics to counter the impacts of the Yale treaty. “We are meeting now and we have the support of hundreds of our fishermen. They are demanding that we help them defend their fishing rights in the Fraser Canyon. Our fishing people spoke with passion and resolve today. It is our duty to protect our aboriginal title in the Fraser Canyon and to support our fishing families at their fishing grounds. My message to Ministers Chuck Strahl and George Abbott is that you both stumbled badly this morning but you still have time to rectify the situation. Hiding out as you did today was a big mistake. If you are truly proud of the deal with the Yale Band, you should not hesitate to meet with us at the earliest opportunity. Do you have the basic decency and courage to do so”? asked Grand Chief Pennier."

Might want to give them a call and chat. They don't seem to be hiding for anyone. Might even want to ask how they really feel about Canada and/or DFO trying to tell them to do anything. Could be a surprising answer to some:
For more information, please contact Grand Chef Clarence Pennier at: 1 604-798-2432 cell or Tribal Chief Tyrone McNeil at: 1 604-798-1509.

http://www.stolotribalcouncil.ca/PDF/Feb 5_YFN Treaty.pdf

 

[chris73]

Maybe we should offer buying the fishing licences from the FN instead from DFO. Might as well and the FN might start seeing value in the sport fishery as well and support us in principle.