Voltage tuning your boat.
- Thread starter Iwannagofishin
- Start date
greenhornet
Active Member
The best way to test your field is get a volt meter set it to 2 volts and put the ground on your battery and put the positive in the water outside your boat it will tell you what your voltage is. Like you calmsea I’m trusting my real world experience as well I know my boat and fish 60-80 days a year, useing braid kills the voltage down the line of course and I understand why you clipped in 30 ft back I did the same thing in the old days when braid wasn’t available. Now with my set up I clip in no further than 6 ft max usually 4 ft works unreal. Just my experience.... good luck out there
tight lines
tight lines
RiverBoy
Well-Known Member
back on 2010 i took my “new to me” boat with brand new wire downrigger during the peak of the sockeye run in Browns Bay. i was in the pack where everyone around me was catching their limits. my rods never bounced even once. i had ppl all around me trying to help. my speed was good, my flashers and hootchies ( leader lengths ) were good.
frustrated beyond belief i went to town and changed out the metal to braid. i went straight back out there and boat limited out in less than an hour. other than the braid i did nothing different
Iwannagofishin
Member
Hi Foxea. You seem to have some grasp on the concept of galvanic corrosion. In order for one metal to protect another in an electrolyte, you cannot use metals that have the same galvanic rating, otherwise, both metals would corrode equally. One has to be rated as more sacrificial, and corrode faster. This is the REDOX effect of reduction and oxidation. Virtually all metals will want to give up their ions and return to their original oxide derivative (rust/corrosion). The sacrificial metal corrodes and gives up it's energy in the form of ions, which bombard the metal to be protected, and with more ions than the protected metal is loosing. The excess ions that are not consumed in the process have to go somewhere. This is where measurable voltage is observed from the excess of unused ions, and the term used in the article is "released and dispersed", not "sprayed".
Iwannagofishin
Member
You are right about sharks and rays possessing ampullae of lorenzini with their voltage receiving snout pods. I have researched in depth looking for information on salmon and trout as an example, having similar sensors. It boils down to "the scientists don't know". Some think that voltage is received at the lateral line, but that is just speculation. As an owner of 3 different trollers in my time, I guarantee that salmon can somehow recognize voltage. In fact, it is a major sense in most fish. Take the study done over 100 yrs ago where they had a catfish in a tank. It's eyes were completely covered. They inserted glass and wood rods into the tank with no movement from the fish. They then inserted a metal rod into the water and the catfish immediately swam over and nosed up to it. The study didn't say what type of metal it was, but absolutely every metal in water that has an oxide derivative, will give off some voltage, even if it is a single metal. To my recollection, catfish are not electroreceptive either, go figure.
Then look at the study done by a university on the Columbia River. They inserted two large metal pipes into the river and charged one with a positive, and the other with a negative voltage. The returning salmon would not go through the negative charged pipe, but would readily travel through the positive charged pipe.
I can also go on about Daniel Nomura, who did his master's thesis at UBC with respect to how different voltages effect different salmon sub species.
Iwannagofishin
Member
Normally, it won't make much difference to the fish whether you have braid or stainless. There are always exceptions to the norm. In your case, the stainless was probably making noise, or had a connection to a voltage source. Stainless by itself should not give off much of anything. Sure nice to fix it whatever the reason.
Iwannagofishin
Member
Iwannagofishin
Member
When I first started my lure tuning, I set up a 30 ft trough and used both sea water as well as tap water from Comox Lake. In salt water, the voltage from a trolling spoon dropped less than 5% at the full 30 ft. In tap water, the voltage dropped 30% for every 10 ft of separation, so out at 30 ft, there was not much left. We then had a high turbidity, boil water advisory. I took my equipment up to the public launch at Comox Lake. With the high turbidity level, the conductivity of the water also rises. I measured the voltage reading out at 140 ft (length of the dock), and the voltage was 3/4 of what it was at 2 inches.
All of my information in the editorial was based on years of data collection, as much came from anglers as my own testing. For 2 summers, I advertised "FREE HELP" on kijiji for anglers who had problem boats. I did this to get a full range of problems, and there were many. You wouldn't believe how many. I added this data to my own experience of owning 3 trollers, and my lure testing, and it was a matter of connecting the dots. This led me to do the trout testing, and using bare zinc, attached, or unattached (electrically) to my aluminum hull. The data that I collected was over a 3 month period, and on 6 different lakes. Anglers should recognize the significance of the results. I can consistently make a 30 ft lure, or a hundred ft lure, catch 3/4 of the fish. I can also make a voltage tuned lure catch about 80% of the fish over a plain identical one when trolled side by side and 14 to 16 ft apart. The percentage is virtually identical on trout, as well as chinook testing in Nootka Sound in 2012/2013. I checked my sales for 2016, and found that 25% of my online customers were repeat buyers, and they are still with me.
I plan to continue my trout testing as soon as possible. I will be using zinc again, just to add to the numbers of the original test, then I will use aluminum and magnesium anodes to verify if the results are similar, and I fully expect them to be.
I had so many angler stories that I cannot ignore the implication. What it boils down to, is that virtually every modern outboard motor (above 50hp?) will have way more anodes than bare metals to be protected, The result is that they are not helping your fishing. How often do you have to replace your outboard anodes? Compare that to my trollers. I would adjust my zincs so that they were all depleted down to under 1/4 left at annual spring haulout. In so doing, the zinc corrosion rate was optimal for giving my boat a nice steady positive voltage field, and I caught fish!
Even though I always had a Russell Black Box, and as much as I tried, not once did I ever walk over to my black box and 'dial up fish'. That's because my boat's field was always good.
All of my information in the editorial was based on years of data collection, as much came from anglers as my own testing. For 2 summers, I advertised "FREE HELP" on kijiji for anglers who had problem boats. I did this to get a full range of problems, and there were many. You wouldn't believe how many. I added this data to my own experience of owning 3 trollers, and my lure testing, and it was a matter of connecting the dots. This led me to do the trout testing, and using bare zinc, attached, or unattached (electrically) to my aluminum hull. The data that I collected was over a 3 month period, and on 6 different lakes. Anglers should recognize the significance of the results. I can consistently make a 30 ft lure, or a hundred ft lure, catch 3/4 of the fish. I can also make a voltage tuned lure catch about 80% of the fish over a plain identical one when trolled side by side and 14 to 16 ft apart. The percentage is virtually identical on trout, as well as chinook testing in Nootka Sound in 2012/2013. I checked my sales for 2016, and found that 25% of my online customers were repeat buyers, and they are still with me.
I plan to continue my trout testing as soon as possible. I will be using zinc again, just to add to the numbers of the original test, then I will use aluminum and magnesium anodes to verify if the results are similar, and I fully expect them to be.
I had so many angler stories that I cannot ignore the implication. What it boils down to, is that virtually every modern outboard motor (above 50hp?) will have way more anodes than bare metals to be protected, The result is that they are not helping your fishing. How often do you have to replace your outboard anodes? Compare that to my trollers. I would adjust my zincs so that they were all depleted down to under 1/4 left at annual spring haulout. In so doing, the zinc corrosion rate was optimal for giving my boat a nice steady positive voltage field, and I caught fish!
Even though I always had a Russell Black Box, and as much as I tried, not once did I ever walk over to my black box and 'dial up fish'. That's because my boat's field was always good.
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Yes. Yes indeed we very much do.
Bottom line here: we are not in the business to play with a small handful of fish and call the day a "success".
Rather, we are in the business of landing as many salmon as possible, in the shortest time possible.
In our fleets we have what is termed High-Liners. They represent the top 5 - 10% of all the boats out there.
And they catch better than anyone else around.
Some of the common variables among every single High-Liner I know is that:
a) the boat is bonded throughout - and I mean everything.
b) extremely serious attention is paid to the voltage created by the boat and gear when deployed.
c) most either use a commercial version of a "black box" or ensure their voltage is bang-on for each species fished by other means (of which there are several).
For the past 15+ years, our boat has remained consistently in the top 5% of the fleet when fishing springs.
We run a very advanced "black box" of which I am the chief operator.
I can dial the boat in to catch whatever species we wish.
The electrical field gradient generated does pull fish into the gear from a distance, and very much encourages them to follow that field as it moves along.
And it works extremely well.
Period.
Think what you may, doesn't really matter much to me.
But I can assure you the premise of that article is bang on.
Those that accept that and govern their boat accordingly WILL out-fish those that do not.
Reality.
Nog
Interesting work, Iwannagofishin. Thanks for sharing. I want to make it clear that I am not discounting the effects of electricity on salmon (or on zincs and sacrificial anodes) - just questioning the assumed mechanism about the observed effects. Salmon may have some ability to recognize electric fields - if they exist and must be incident upon the fish - irrespective of any debate about lateral lines and EMO detection ability. That's where my skepticism for the explanation lies.
There's been quite a bit of work done on the effects of electric fields on fish in both salt- and fresh-water mostly surrounding the use of electroshockers. The electric fields generated by high voltage (+500V) alternating DC current are in the envelop of several feet of water - dependent upon the spacing between the anode & cathode. Those +500v plus electric fields do not extend out 30-100 feet. I would assume a few volts of charge would only have an electric field of centimeters. see: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bef2/bc57910b400e0c26f120362d951f288f08de.pdf
Maybe I am missing something in your explanation of your experiment but I am not seeing how the electric fields themselves would be able to interact with fish in the 30-100 foot ranges. That's why I was suggesting an alternative explanation about metallic ions in the water attracting/repulsing fish.
Another additional, complementary explanation is that salmon use what they normally do in finding the spoon - visual - zeroing in on the flashing. Then, as they get close (within a couple of feet) to the lure and are deciding to bit or not - that's when they can sense an electric field. The spoon is the cathode/anode. That would only work if you had a wire cable to your spoon tho - I don't think monofilament would be a great electrical conductor.
There's been quite a bit of work done on the effects of electric fields on fish in both salt- and fresh-water mostly surrounding the use of electroshockers. The electric fields generated by high voltage (+500V) alternating DC current are in the envelop of several feet of water - dependent upon the spacing between the anode & cathode. Those +500v plus electric fields do not extend out 30-100 feet. I would assume a few volts of charge would only have an electric field of centimeters. see: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bef2/bc57910b400e0c26f120362d951f288f08de.pdf
Maybe I am missing something in your explanation of your experiment but I am not seeing how the electric fields themselves would be able to interact with fish in the 30-100 foot ranges. That's why I was suggesting an alternative explanation about metallic ions in the water attracting/repulsing fish.
Another additional, complementary explanation is that salmon use what they normally do in finding the spoon - visual - zeroing in on the flashing. Then, as they get close (within a couple of feet) to the lure and are deciding to bit or not - that's when they can sense an electric field. The spoon is the cathode/anode. That would only work if you had a wire cable to your spoon tho - I don't think monofilament would be a great electrical conductor.
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Corey_lax
Crew Member
My 18' boat had 40 years of wiring underneath it when I got it. Probably about 1,000' of copper wire in an 18' boat haha. My buddy rewired everything new, and I swapped the downriggers to braid instead of wire. I can't say which fix helped the most, but the boat is probably fishing 3-5 times better than it was....
Viking
Well-Known Member
Ha ha for me no issues limiting on socs. Home in the driveway washed up by 1 tops. To one their own I guess. Could be the dirty water idk.
Iwannagofishin
Member
Nothing conducts electricity in water that is only as conductive as the surrounding water. This means plastic, monofilament or gangion twine. I did a winter of testing on the subject, and physical contact between metals is the only conductive pathway. This is backed up by an Alaskan troller that I debated exhaustively with. He finally solidified my position when he told me that one spring haulout, he never cleaned his cooling pipes very well before attaching his zincs. At haulout a year later, he discovered that his zincs were virtually as new.
There are tons of opinions out there, including mine. The only ones that matter are what the fish think. Let's take the guy on Lake Ontario who contacted me with his story. He had an older Starline aluminum boat with a single older outboard. He could not catch fish unless he had 150 ft of line out behind his boat. Being in fresh water, there were no anodes ever attached to the hull. I forwarded a video link to him that I had made previously, and told him to check the factory jumper wire that connected the lower leg to the upper leg, and ultimately to the hull. As it turned out, that one wire was broken. After repairing the wire, and the next time out, he caught a 17lb chinook while letting his cannonball down. He was so elated that he asked if he could help with distribution of my lures in his area. That was not a fluke catch. He did well after that. What this wire does is, it connects the trim zinc through to the hull, protecting the hull and giving it a positive signature in the process. I am also suspicious that just the aluminum hull with no anode also repels some fish. After I complete my trout study with zinc, aluminum and magnesium anodes, I hope to test that theory as well. His is only one situation. There are also the 4 guys in a row last summer that contacted me with complaints that their newer, fully painted aluminum boats only catch them about 1/3 of what they normally caught with their old unpainted aluminum boats. I'm not making this up. It's not 'fake news'. If you don't believe me, I am sure that I can put you in touch with several people that I helped.
As far as voltage range, my meter readings out at 140 ft in fresh water are accurate. And that's in fresh water. Just imagine the range in sea water. I have another customer from Duncan who tells me that when certain charter boats see him coming, they pick up and move to another location. I could probably get him to talk with you about his experiences, if you wanted.
I am probably going to stir things up even more. The Island Fisherman Magazine has offered me my own column. The may issue will have my next subject: DOWNRIGGER WIRE VOLTAGES and WHY WE HAVE BEEN GETTING IT WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. Who's ready for that one?
Iwannagofishin
Member
Thanks Nog.
It's always nice to get affirmation by someone 'in the know'. Being an intangible, the voltage effects always attract a few skeptics. Oh well. their loss.
Thanks again for starting this thread and sharing your observations & experiences, Iwannagofishin. I think we are all in agreement with trying to figure this phenomenon w/o trying to discount nor discredit anyone's observations & experiences - but instead just trying to dig deep on the assumed causal mechanisms. That's certainly my intent, anyways.
I note in your post #28 above you mention about your testing voltage differences in a 30 ft trough and along a 140 ft dock. The numbers you quote (voltage drop 30% for every 10 ft of separation for the trough, and voltage of 3/4 of what it was at 2 inches on the dock) seem to be at odds with what is generally accepted & researched for at least freshwater electrical conductance.
W/o trying to dispute your numbers (which I believe) - I was wondering if there were some confounding or extraneous effects not accounted for:
1/ Was your water actually "fresh"water?
2/ Was your trough non conductive?
3/ Was there a wire along the dock, or was the dock made of metal or had metal in it?
I see you also confirm that the fresh water had a high turbidity level. I'll have to see what I can research as to how turbidity and salinity affects electrical conductance & electric fields compared to freshwater...
I note in your post #28 above you mention about your testing voltage differences in a 30 ft trough and along a 140 ft dock. The numbers you quote (voltage drop 30% for every 10 ft of separation for the trough, and voltage of 3/4 of what it was at 2 inches on the dock) seem to be at odds with what is generally accepted & researched for at least freshwater electrical conductance.
W/o trying to dispute your numbers (which I believe) - I was wondering if there were some confounding or extraneous effects not accounted for:
1/ Was your water actually "fresh"water?
2/ Was your trough non conductive?
3/ Was there a wire along the dock, or was the dock made of metal or had metal in it?
I see you also confirm that the fresh water had a high turbidity level. I'll have to see what I can research as to how turbidity and salinity affects electrical conductance & electric fields compared to freshwater...
MadJigga
Well-Known Member
So, would your professional advice be black box with wire instead of braid on the downriggers?
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Like I noted, there are ways to get around the black box requirement. You can get the correct voltage readings without one.
I have set up many sport rigs, some with, some without. Once tweaked they all fished pretty much the same - as in well.
Braid is the "easier" route to go, and it will mask any leakage issues you might have.
The downside of that if you will is that you are not employing the correct electrical gradient to draw the fish into your gear / follow you so you are left with gear presentation only.
Cheers,
Nog
Iwannagofishin
Member
Sorry for any confusion. The 30 ft trough was plastic lined. It was fresh water from the same source (Comox Lake). If you are not familiar with conductivity in fresh water, and the role that mineral content has, pure distilled water is a very poor conductor. Electrical conductivity is almost completely dependent upon the mineral content, and to a lesser degree, water temperature. I have seen a couple of websites that claim something to the effect that a shark could detect the voltage from a flashlight battery at a distance of 1,000 kms, but nobody said if they had asked the shark or not.
When I tested at the lake, I used a 140 ft of insulated copper wire with one end connected to the lure hook near the shore and the 'reader' hook attached to the other end. the dock played no part in the results. The voltage generated by the lure had to travel through the distance of the spread, in order to be read by the meter. The shore test was also done with the 140 ft of wire connected, but with the 'reader' hook only being 2 inches from the lure. In this manner, any resistance in the length of wire, is taken completely out of the equation, and the only difference between the 2 tests is the 140 ft of water, and the resulting difference in the meter readings. The 'reader' hook, is an identical hook to that of the lure. In that manner, I have a 'zero base line', and only measure the effects that the lure body, components and anode have on that lure's hook. The voltage is also measured through a short distance of water, so as to read the true voltage that a fish sees, just before it strikes the lure.
The mineral content of lakes, and the resulting lure or boat voltage will vary greatly, from highly mineralized, brackish water to low mineral. Highly mineralized fresh water can be almost as conductive as sea water.
Iwannagofishin
Member
I know that NOG likes the black box for different species of salmon, but in all honesty, and in all my years of fishing with a black box on my trollers, I never was able to improve my fishing on certain species by adjusting the levels. Saying that, my boats were always pretty fishy, because of a properly set up bonding system. It is possible that a black box will work better on boats that have a lower voltage signature. In that manner a black box can raise the voltage in the field, but if you already have a high voltage signature from the boat, the black box cannot lower the hull voltage. Make sense?
The other thing that confused the hell out of me, was that, not all of my lure customers had noticeable good results with my voltage tuned lures. This was also part of what led me on my mission to find out why some boats fish better that others. The conclusion that I came to was, if a boat was pretty 'fishy' right out of the gate, my lures made less of a difference, simply because the surrounding water was already saturated with a positive voltage field. On the flip side, if a boat was giving off a strong negative signature, my lure voltages were not enough to overcome this. This became obvious with a Georgian Bay chap who had to stop guiding because he simply could not catch fish for his clients. It turned out that his boat was not bonded and it was giving off multiple signatures at the same time, from his legs, trim tabs and swim platform. He had bought tuned lures from my right at the start, yet still could not catch fish. After guiding him through the bonding and anode procedures, he is now catching his share of fish. I know this a long winded answer, but want you guys to know my experiences.
So, to answer your question, first and foremost, do the best job possible at bonding your boat, and not be overzinced. Focus on these 2 things, and you will never be disappointed. You can use wire or braid, neither one will have much effect on the fish.
I got started writing for the magazine after Gary Cooper (Nice Fish) showed Joel Unickow (Island Fisherman), one of my Portable Black Boxes. I was contacted by Montague Lee (columnist), and sent him some products for testing. His article, with review, is supposed to be out in the next issue. I have not seen it, nor have I talked with him. For those that are interested in seeing that, as well as my Downrigger Voltage article, either pick up a copy, or get a subscription to the magazine. That's my only 'plug', I promise.
Thanks, Iwannagofishin. That adds some context & details. Just a point of clarification: the "reader" hook you describe - was it attached back to your boat or battery? If so - by what - monofilament? And the a 140 ft of insulated copper wire was used to test differences of electrical potential loss in the water (i.e. reads directly from your battery)?
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