The Otter Point Closure Line: West is West

[dabell]

There is a current /new rule in place not to fish west of a certain longitude, straightforward whether anyone agrees with the reason or not. There are also fishery regs that change over time regarding slot limit sizes, hatchery/wild coho, and retention of other species.

I go with the simple method - follow all the rules. If breaking the rules of the day is ok - then which one? Keep wild coho? Keep female crab once in a while ? 88 cm fish when its 85 max (or 90, 91....) ?

 

[Saxe Point]

YOUR missing the point SAXE I asked DFO is it on a southerly line and they couldn't answer the question for me ... thats where the problem is... nothing else I agree with what you are saying it has to be way more clearer for all of us. WOULD you listen to what Im saying it states

(west longitude (in line with the radio tower located at Otter Point).”

well sheringham is almost DUE west and we know that isnt the line....

Why I get the hackles up is for one reason WE should all be pissed at this stupid blunder if your siding with DFO and the killing of fishing so be it .im almost done in this game as people do not get how badly DFO is killing our communities and I doubt either do you marinas are empty no one is out etc...

Im done with all of this crap DFO has don,e if you went to all the meeting ive been to in 20 years you would have seen how much they have screwed us over ....

Have a god day Wolf

I am not missing the point at all Wolf - you are missing it, and very badly.

Whatever some person from DFO did or did not say to you in response to your query is irrelevant, despite the fact you say “that’s where the problem is.” As I have pointed out - and many others agree - the rule is clear and the location of the boundary line is easy to determine. You never explain why my explanation is wrong or why it is not simple.

You even mischaracterize the very point I have been making. You say “I agree with what you are saying it has to be way more clearer for all of us.” But that’s not what I am saying at all. In fact, I have been saying precisely the opposite: it is crystal clear to anyone.

You then say this, as though I am ignoring your point:

“WOULD you listen to what Im saying it states

(west longitude (in line with the radio tower located at Otter Point).”

well sheringham is almost DUE west and we know that isnt the line....”

What you are saying there is incomprehensible and doesn’t refute my points.

You then go on a tirade that is entirely beside the point, wrongly suggesting that I’m “siding with DFO and the killing of fishing”, that I don’t “get how badly DFO is killing our communities”.

I suggest you keep your passions in check and your hackles down and instead focus on making comprehensible and logical arguments in support of your position. Casting unfounded and irrelevant aspersions on those who disagree with you does not advance your position.

This discussion has prompted people to raise three issues and it is useful to keep them separate:

1. Is the Otter Point Boundary clear and easy to identify? Along with others, I argue that it is.

2. Does it matter if people fail or refuse to respect the boundary specifically, and the fishing regulations generally? This involves an examination of the ethics and the culture of fishing and those who fish, and the rule of law generally. Again, along with others, I say it’s important to respect all the rules, irrespective whether I think they are sensible or not. If a person doesn’t think the rules are appropriate (see issue 3) the democratic process allows for them to be removed or changed.

3. Are the rules appropriate? A big subject about which people will likely disagree to some extent, depending on the rule in question. I (and most) haven’t commented on this as it has nothing to do with the first two issues. There’s been lots of ink spilled about this in other threads.

 

[wolf]

1. Is the Otter Point Boundary clear and easy to identify? Along with others, I argue that it is.

it is not it was changed from what fisheries told us from the rotten dead tree( when they told us to come over from shore) to the other side as there was a decimal point made in the process was wrong HENCE they moved it as people couldnt fish otter on the flood ... I am out there EVERYDAY I see what going on you dont I guess you like to be the moral policeman ... im sure you follow all posted speed sign too never go 10 km over???? if you do better look out...
they closed 46 km of shoreline i assume you want more right why not take up the fight with the NGO and show them this as you will be better off . knowing you have done your part
thanks Wolf

 

[ziggy]

Really DFO told you to use a rotten dead tree as opposed to a Lat and Long? Not doubting you just find that hilarious.

 

[wolf]

Really DFO told you to use a rotten dead tree as opposed to a Lat and Long? Not doubting you just find that hilarious.

Yes they asked us from shore to come over so we all did and thats what they told us ,,,do you see why this is such a mess and Ive asked. this whole thng is a joke and it just gets worse and worse...

 

[Saxe Point]

Ziggy is right and proves my point that what was said is irrelevant as to whether the rule is clear and easy to follow. You somehow don’t understand this. That’s why rules and laws are written down. It’s so everyone knows what the rules are and people can’t say they were told something different by someone. That’s not the way it works.

I would also ask you once again to stick to the arguments and refrain from personalizing matters by casting aspersions and relying on innuendo. Suggesting sarcastically that I break speed limits and that I want more closures are unwarranted and inappropriate as is your reference to “moral policeman”. They are also irrelevant to the issue being debated, as is the assertion that you are at Otter Point every day.

I want to stick to discussing and debating the issue rather than the people making the arguments, but if you persist, I will be forced to respond in kind and the administrator will shut it down.

Before we get there, I would ask the administrator to confirm either that you should stop the personal attacks and stick to the arguments or that the gloves are off.

 

[Rum Buddies]

Super classy for a charter boat operator to be arguing why it's ok to break the rules...

We all know the point is the point, fish past it and you're breaking the rules. You can do all the mental gymnastics you like, everybody crossing the line knows exactly what they're doing.

 

[Jama]

I charted this on my chartplotter and this is what it shows. Much different than I thought it was when fishing there a few weeks ago. I would say most boats were using the line of west to east on my waypoint 1627 at Otter point.
Why can't they just put up a couple of posts 50 feet apart on the point. When they line up you are on the boundary.

There is no fishing for finfish in
Subareas 20-3, 20-4 and that portion of Subarea 20-5 that lies west of 123
degrees 49.345 minutes west longitude (in line with the radio tower located at
Otter Point).”

View attachment 39922

FN0428-Conservation Measures for Northern and Southern BC Chinook Salmon and Southern Resident Killer Whales

I charted this on my chartplotter and this is what it shows. Much different than I thought it was when fishing there a few weeks ago. I would say most boats were using the line of west to east on my waypoint 1627 at Otter point.
Why can't they just put up a couple of posts 50 feet apart on the point. When they line up you are on the boundary.

There is no fishing for finfish in
Subareas 20-3, 20-4 and that portion of Subarea 20-5 that lies west of 123
degrees 49.345 minutes west longitude (in line with the radio tower located at
Otter Point).”

View attachment 39922

ATTACH=full]39922[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
FN0428-Conservation Measures for Northern and Southern BC Chinook Salmon and Southern Resident Killer Whales
Effective June 1, 2018 to September 30, 2018 there is no fishing for finfish in
Subareas 20-3, 20-4 and that portion of Subarea 20-5 that lies west of 123
degrees 49.30 minutes west longitude (Otter Point)
My app shows 123. 49.30 does that make any difference?

 

[casper5280]

I believe it’s 123 49 345 so yes a slight difference but still clear as anything you are over the line if you are west of that. I don’t care if it’s a radio tower, s dead tree or in the fog. All you have to know is that’s the line and if you are west you are over. Look at your gps and it will tell you. If you are stopped and they see s slug trail on your gps and it’s over you are done. Pretty simple.

 

[Islander57]

That has been my point. How can you not understand the boundary if you have a GPS? This certainly isn't the only place on the coast that has boundary restrictions. If you cross the boundary that has been posted as off limits, then you are in violation of the regulations. What am I missing here? It's not rocket science to me.

 

[profisher]

To those who have never fished the spot I can understand the thought that a line is a line...go over and your breaking the law...yes you can even put the line on your plotter to make it plainly obvious. But the spot now presents those fishing there some real challenges...especially now that everyone is squeezed into a VERY small fishy area especially during a fast moving and productive flood current. Before the closure there might be 1/4 of the boats fishing Otter Point and holding in the rip off the point waiting for the bite...the rest would be spaced out up to third rock where the current is not so extreme. The whole stretch of water produces..but now 2nd and 3rd rock and the slower moving water is out of bounds. So now all the boats are stacked up 3-4 abreast with 3-4 abreast in front of you and behind you as well. Its a cluster waiting to happen at best. When you get to the line all the boats on the inside are stuck if the outside boats doesn't turn out and back. You are screwed if one of the boats in front of you turns tight inside and again keeps you from being able to turn....the same if someone close to the line hooks up and merely slows down to play the fish....(they have no choice they can't turn around as there is a wave of boats right behind them) Those who don't know Sooke will say why fish there then? Because that is the ONLY westerly spot available to us now....imagine where you fish and having only one place to fish and the combat fishing you would be forced to par take in. The majority of the boats head west for a reason...JDF blows up with stiff westerlies almost every afternoon. You want to head west in the morning while the water is flat...put in your time and surf home to your dock on the back of the 25 mile an hour and 3-5 foot waves. To go east means a **** ride home or laying over until tide and winds subside...which could be overnight in the worst case scenario for a smaller boat. It is also so frustrating to be stuck in the ebb current undertow and 3-4 foot steep and close timed waves that happen every morning off Otter and look at flat clam water over at 2nd and 3rd rocks a couple hundred feet away.

 

[SpringVelocity]

Guys the closure is ridiculous we all know it is. Even more ridiculous that other user groups just go in there carefree without your area reps saying anything. They want an alliance with whale watchers and that is their thing so it will never get pushed down there. Have advice. Follow the closure line to best of your ability. There will always be guys pushing boundaries no matter what restriction. The enemy on this thing is not your fellow fisherman it is the environment groups. If you keep pushing and saying he did this and they did that almost gives more ammunition to those groups. Just giving you a different view to think about.

Also Profisher beat me too it above. He and Wolf know that area. Good info above. Go fishing!?!

 

[profisher]

Jerrod.....our reps are not staying quiet. Our reps (again need I remind you and everyone....VOLUNTEERS) have had a long and frustrating year with a way more time consuming workload. The fight is not over but...summer is a time for these guys to back off a bit and go back to THEIR lives or lively hoods. The fight will renew when the fall sessions begin. Jerrod you of anyone should know how taxing being a volunteer can be and how it can interfere with your own life. They do it, you do it and I do it to give back and make things better. Most of us realize this more than likely means better for the next generations as things move so slowly it won't benefit us as much. The Sooke net pen took 3 years of meetings, proposal writing, more meetings etc before we could even announce it would be an approved project. Now in 2019 the first 3 year old fish will return and in 2020 the first 4 year old fish will return. By the time the returns from the 2 million planned 2020 out planting return in 2024 I will be 65 and thinking about retiring....hopefully I get a couple of years in to see how much improved the mid summer to late summer Sooke fishing is with these fish returning.

 

[casper5280]

Totally agree with SpringVelocity here but don't tell me that you get pushed all the way to 3rd rock so that's why our over the line. **** happens and yes you get pushed around and yes I have fished Otter tons and know what happens on a flood and ebb tide. The original post was where the line is. you are either over it or your not. Why your over there is for DFO and you to decide.

 

[Saxe Point]

To those who have never fished the spot I can understand the thought that a line is a line...go over and your breaking the law...yes you can even put the line on your plotter to make it plainly obvious. But the spot now presents those fishing there some real challenges...especially now that everyone is squeezed into a VERY small fishy area especially during a fast moving and productive flood current. Before the closure there might be 1/4 of the boats fishing Otter Point and holding in the rip off the point waiting for the bite...the rest would be spaced out up to third rock where the current is not so extreme. The whole stretch of water produces..but now 2nd and 3rd rock and the slower moving water is out of bounds. So now all the boats are stacked up 3-4 abreast with 3-4 abreast in front of you and behind you as well. Its a cluster waiting to happen at best. When you get to the line all the boats on the inside are stuck if the outside boats doesn't turn out and back. You are screwed if one of the boats in front of you turns tight inside and again keeps you from being able to turn....the same if someone close to the line hooks up and merely slows down to play the fish....(they have no choice they can't turn around as there is a wave of boats right behind them) Those who don't know Sooke will say why fish there then? Because that is the ONLY westerly spot available to us now....imagine where you fish and having only one place to fish and the combat fishing you would be forced to par take in. The majority of the boats head west for a reason...JDF blows up with stiff westerlies almost every afternoon. You want to head west in the morning while the water is flat...put in your time and surf home to your dock on the back of the 25 mile an hour and 3-5 foot waves. To go east means a **** ride home or laying over until tide and winds subside...which could be overnight in the worst case scenario for a smaller boat. It is also so frustrating to be stuck in the ebb current undertow and 3-4 foot steep and close timed waves that happen every morning off Otter and look at flat clam water over at 2nd and 3rd rocks a couple hundred feet away.

Very articulate description of the problem Profisher.

However, like Casper says, it is perhaps questionable that someone can be “pushed” so far over the line because of this combat fishing.

And as I mentioned in one of my posts, the number of boats fishing over the line and the extent to which they are over, and how often, may be of no real concern to the regulator given the large area that is closed. But if these things do concern the regulator, this fudging of the boundary rule is evidence that could prompt them to move the line east. They may conclude that there will always be systematic, but small, boundary violations, and therefore in order to keep sports fishers off the large populations that so obviously congregate at Otter, they could then move it to Trailer Park. It’s a dangerous gamble to assume that they don’t care.

Is Otter really the “only westerly spot available to us”? I catch fish between Otter and Sooke and others probably do as well - they probably catch more than me.

 

[SpringVelocity]

Totally agree with SpringVelocity here but don't tell me that you get pushed all the way to 3rd rock so that's why our over the line. **** happens and yes you get pushed around and yes I have fished Otter tons and know what happens on a flood and ebb tide. The original post was where the line is. you are either over it or your not. Why your over the is for DFO and you to decide.

I tend to fish in trailer park myself. A lot of times they come down there anyway. I don't like that shuffle in there it's great when all people are doing circuit.

 

[profisher]

Oh I agree there are guys who go over and they did it on there own...but they are few in number (one is a guide) obviously they don't care about what their actions may cause for the rest of us. They will be the first to ***** if the NGO's win a complete JDF closure. Saxe...I and others fish points of land where currents pull fish closer together and into readable water where you can condense your effort into a smaller body of water and increase your odds, Sure you can fish the bluffs...but the fish are going to be spread out and hard to find because there is no definable back eddy or rip that stacks them up. The fish could be under you or 300 feet either side of you. That doesn't make for good odds at consistent catches.

 

[chris73]

Well, I for one couldn't care less if someone wants to ignore the regs. It does not affect me, I am not in competition with anyone when I am fishing. Fill your boots, even fill your tub but don't complain if you are caught. If someone defies the regs out of protest, fine, make your point, hope it works. Maybe some of you should chill a bit and mind your own business.

 

[ziggy]

Can’t agree with you regarding minding you own business. I believe that we all get branded as a group,so it is, all of our business. I have no problem with a protest where boats enter the area and don’t actually fish, but if people are actually fishing in violation of the regulations, regardless of whether we personally agree with them or not, you’re in my opinion, harming the cause. Rest assured the media will portray it as all recreational fishermen, much like the incident on the Fraser recently when some clowns were harassing women and kids, you think crap like that builds public support? Not a chance and it makes us all look like idiots! If you are fishing outside of the regulations are you not poaching? Failing to follow these rules,stupid and ill conceived as they are, plays into the hands of the engo’s who can hold this out to Joe Public and say all we care about is filling our freezers.

 

[chris73]

I don't think so, ziggy. I think no one cares other than you and a few others.